HAL Tejas | Updates, News & Discussions-[Thread 2]

[BON PLAN]

Meteor is the one to beat thanks to the ramjet rocket that will keep it powered throughout it's flight. It's NEZ is supposedly far better than the latest AMRAAM.

The NEZ of Meteor is > 60km, so nearly 3 more NEZ range than AMRAAM C7 (on something in the 2.5 more range than AMRAAM D).

The full range (ie with few energy at the end, in a semi ballistic low speed flight) is >> 200km (the rumor in Europe say 300 to 350km...). Maybe enough to catch a slow moving target as a tanker ???

 

[BON PLAN]

The Tejas Mk1's wing is so big that even with the added weight of the Mk2, the wing loading of a Tejas Mk2 with it's canards will be quite low, which is a great thing. The canards obviously will increase the lifting surface area, so they compensate for the added weight in a way.

Are they closed coupled canards?

 

[MirageBlue]

Are they closed coupled canards?

Yes indeed. A great read on the Tejas Mk2 (aka MWF) is here at the link below.

Tracking the Tejas- The Tejas Mk2 grows a pair becomes the medium weight fighter

However, now that a stable and robust flight control system (FCS) has already been designed, tested and validated, the addition of canards is an incremental development which ADA is confident of undertaking. The incorporation of canards also obviates the need to redesign the wing to cater to a shift in the center of lift (CoL) commensurate to a forward shift in the center of gravity (CG), which would invariably happen once the length of the fuselage is increased (more on this later). Instead, using the canards to move the center of lift forward while retaining the old wing seems like an attractive option, given that it also brings with it other aerodynamic advantages . The canards in MWF are positioned below the avionics bay cover, just behind the cockpit. They are in close-coupled configuration and are positioned slightly ahead and above the wing plane for optimal wing-canard interaction. The canards are set at a negative angle and have a slight dihedral angle. Close-coupled canards significantly affect wing aerodynamics on account of their favorable wing-canard interaction and increase lift produced by the wing considerably. Canards help stabilize the wing LE vortices for medium to high Angle of Attack (AoA) by delaying vortex breakdown. In addition, they produce significant lift themselves, further augmenting the total lift produced by the aircraft. Canards also help achieve better area ruling for reduced wave drag. In the air, they can act as extra control surfaces for pitch and directional control, and on the ground, as air-brakes during landing roll. In fact, for MWF, the canards will be used as pitch control surfaces and as air-brakes to reduce landing roll. In contrast, long coupled canards (as seen on the Eurofighter Typhoon or the Rockwell-MBB X-31) are only meant to be control surfaces and they neither contribute significantly to overall lift, nor do they interact strongly with the extant wing aerodynamics.

Figure 11: Front fuselage section showing Close-Coupled canards adopted for LCA Mk2 (MWF). The front fuselage is elongated by approximately 1.5m using two plugs and has increased height. The width remains same as that in MK1.

 

[halupridol]

Yes indeed. A great read on the Tejas Mk2 (aka MWF) is here at the link below.

Tracking the Tejas- The Tejas Mk2 grows a pair becomes the medium weight fighter

When will mk1a and mwf fly,,,,and when do you expect thm to be inducted?
I mean do U believe the timelines being touted by the dpsu's???
And r u Indraneel of B R F?

 

[MirageBlue]

When will mk1a and mwf fly,,,,and do you expect thm to be inducted?

Tejas Mk1A first flight should be towards end of 2021. AFAIK, the Tejas Mk1 prototype LSP8 is being modified to become the first Mk1A prototype.

Tejas Mk2 should have it's first flight in the third or fourth quarter of 2023.

And yes of course, both will definitely be inducted. The IAF is hedging it's entire light fighter and medium weight fighter requirements on them. The IAF ACM Bhadauria calling the Tejas Mk1 "best in class" and saying "take my word for it" tells you how confident he and IAF top brass is about it.And this is also borne out by the reports of how happy the No.45 Squadron pilots and technicians are with the Tejas.

So, now that the IAF knows how good the Tejas Mk1 itself is and that if they are fully invested in the Mk1A and Mk2 programs, they can steer it as per their needs on a single source basis. Compared to that, the MRCA/MRFA is dependent entirely on the MoD and GoI and their Defence Procurement Procedures and how a tender needs to be done.

MRFA contest (same as the earlier MRCA contest) hasn't even resulted in a RFP as of now, only an RFI was sent out. By the time they send out the RFP, evaluate the contestants, receive bids, open the bids, evaluate the bids and then begin L1/L2 negotiations it'll take 3-4 years optimistically. After that, if the bidder gets selected as L1 (as Dassault was during MRCA), it'll take another 1-2 years at the very least to sign a contract with the thousands and thousands of pages it involves due to the complex local assembly requirements and offsets. So that's anywhere between 4-6 years for a contract to be handed to any foreign OEM.

And remember, the IAF only gets it's first foreign MRCA directly from the OEM, 3 years after the contract is signed. Not to mention all the difficulties with setting up a local assembly line for it. So, there won't be any imported MRCA coming into IAF service till 2028-29. That is assuming it even goes through all the hurdles and there is a budget for purchasing these.

 

[halupridol]

Tejas Mk1A first flight should be towards end of 2021. AFAIK, the Tejas Mk1 prototype LSP8 is being modified to become the first Mk1A prototype.

Tejas Mk2 should have it's first flight in the third or fourth quarter of 2023.

And yes of course, both will definitely be inducted. The IAF is hedging it's entire light fighter and medium weight fighter requirements on them. The IAF ACM Bhadauria calling the Tejas Mk1 "best in class" and saying "take my word for it" tells you how confident he and IAF top brass is about it.And this is also borne out by the reports of how happy the No.45 Squadron pilots and technicians are with the Tejas.

So, now that the IAF knows how good the Tejas Mk1 itself is and that if they are fully invested in the Mk1A and Mk2 programs, they can steer it as per their needs on a single source basis. Compared to that, the MRCA/MRFA is dependent entirely on the MoD and GoI and their Defence Procurement Procedures and how a tender needs to be done.

MRFA contest (same as the earlier MRCA contest) hasn't even resulted in a RFP as of now, only an RFI was sent out. By the time they send out the RFP, evaluate the contestants, receive bids, open the bids, evaluate the bids and then begin L1/L2 negotiations it'll take 3-4 years optimistically. After that, if the bidder gets selected as L1 (as Dassault was during MRCA), it'll take another 1-2 years at the very least to sign a contract with the thousands and thousands of pages it involves due to the complex local assembly requirements and offsets. So that's anywhere between 4-6 years for a contract to be handed to any foreign OEM.

And remember, the IAF only gets it's first foreign MRCA directly from the OEM, 3 years after the contract is signed. Not to mention all the difficulties with setting up a local assembly line for it. So, there won't be any imported MRCA coming into IAF service till 2028-29. That is assuming it even goes through all the hurdles and there is a budget for purchasing these.

What u r saying doesn't resonate with what I have heard(from active servicemen).
Okay let me rephrase my questions ,,,,,, when do U believe mk1a and mwf will fly and inducted(which years,,first flight and FOC induction) ??

 

[MirageBlue]

What u r saying doesn't resonate with what I have heard(from active servicemen).
Okay let me rephrase my questions ,,,,,, when do U believe mk1a and mwf will fly and inducted(which years,,first flight and FOC induction) ??

Which active servicemen are you referring to? People involved with the LCA? Those who are not involved with the Tejas program will regurgitate the same bile that has been spewed by countless media articles in the past. That's what PR does- it successfully maligns or bolsters the image of something you have neither seen nor encountered yourself.

Rephrase your question? You're saying as if I answered something that you didn't ask me about. It was answered in much more detail than you bothered to even put in.

Tejas Mk1A first flight will be in 3rd or 4th quarter 2021. It will supposedly go into production by 2023, after the remaining 14 single seat FOC fighters and 18 FOC trainers are built and delivered.

By 2021, all 16 single seat FOC fighters will be delivered. After that the trainers go into production, apparently on a new assembly line being built. In 2023, the 18 trainers will be delivered.

Meanwhile, the single seat Mk1A will begin to be assembled as soon as the last FOC Mk1 is delivered. The reason being that the difference between Mk1 and Mk1A is more related to radar, avionics systems and LRUs and not to the basic airframe structure itself. So those can continue even while the Mk1A is being flight tested.

My estimate based on what is known from open sources.

Tejas Mk1A -
First flight - 2021
IOC - 2023
Entry into service - 2023/24
FOC - 2025

Tejas Mk2 -
Prototype rollout- 2022 (August to be specific)
First flight - 2023 (September to be specific)
IOC - 2026 (my estimate)
Entry into service - 2026/27
FOC - 2028/29

 

[SrNair]

SP21 (FOC) with the removable IFR probe removed:

View attachment 639683

30 years of our investment .
I think it was a best decision.
Now we have our own strong platform

 

[Zapper]

Tejas Mk1A first flight should be towards end of 2021. AFAIK, the Tejas Mk1 prototype LSP8 is being modified to become the first Mk1A prototype.

Tejas Mk2 should have it's first flight in the third or fourth quarter of 2023.

And yes of course, both will definitely be inducted. The IAF is hedging it's entire light fighter and medium weight fighter requirements on them. The IAF ACM Bhadauria calling the Tejas Mk1 "best in class" and saying "take my word for it" tells you how confident he and IAF top brass is about it.And this is also borne out by the reports of how happy the No.45 Squadron pilots and technicians are with the Tejas.

So, now that the IAF knows how good the Tejas Mk1 itself is and that if they are fully invested in the Mk1A and Mk2 programs, they can steer it as per their needs on a single source basis. Compared to that, the MRCA/MRFA is dependent entirely on the MoD and GoI and their Defence Procurement Procedures and how a tender needs to be done.

MRFA contest (same as the earlier MRCA contest) hasn't even resulted in a RFP as of now, only an RFI was sent out. By the time they send out the RFP, evaluate the contestants, receive bids, open the bids, evaluate the bids and then begin L1/L2 negotiations it'll take 3-4 years optimistically. After that, if the bidder gets selected as L1 (as Dassault was during MRCA), it'll take another 1-2 years at the very least to sign a contract with the thousands and thousands of pages it involves due to the complex local assembly requirements and offsets. So that's anywhere between 4-6 years for a contract to be handed to any foreign OEM.

And remember, the IAF only gets it's first foreign MRCA directly from the OEM, 3 years after the contract is signed. Not to mention all the difficulties with setting up a local assembly line for it. So, there won't be any imported MRCA coming into IAF service till 2028-29. That is assuming it even goes through all the hurdles and there is a budget for purchasing these.

Some good info there. Do you think MWF will have Uttam and DRDO/BEL's avionics or would they go for Elta and Israeli avionics?

Tejas Mk2 -
Prototype rollout- 2022 (August to be specific)
First flight - 2023 (September to be specific)
IOC - 2026 (my estimate)
Entry into service - 2026/27
FOC - 2028/29

Are these ADA's estimates? Metal cutting for MWF was supposed to happen later this year or early next year but with covid, it might be delayed to late next year

 

[MirageBlue]

Some good info there. Do you think MWF will have Uttam and DRDO/BEL's avionics or would they go for Elta and Israeli avionics?

If progress continues to be as good as it has been so far, the Uttam may well be the AESA radar for the Tejas Mk2. For the Mk1A, at least the first batches will be with the Elta 2052. It all depends on how LRDE and other DRDO labs and units manage to productionize the Uttam once the flight testing phase is over. Bharat Electricals Ltd (BEL) which manufactures most of India's indigenous radars, including AESA and is also the offset partner for the Thales RBE-2 AESA on the Rafale, will likely be the manufacturer. They will likely involve the private sector as well, with Astra Microwave being a big player in the Indian radar market.

Earlier this year, the Uttam AESA Project Director had given a short update on where the radar was in terms of testing. Covid-19 might have caused some delays due to stalling of testing, but I would expect the Tejas Mk2 to use the Uttam AESA radar and not the Elta 2052.

Uttam AESA radar updates

• Air to air modes comprise 60% of radar testing
• Half way through it
• 30 odd sorties required to complete the air to air mode testing
• Planned to complete all modes by year end on LCA prototype (includes air to sea, air to ground and combined modes)
• Out of 18 total modes, 10 modes have been tested
• Air to ground and air to sea have Imaging and Tracking modes. These have already been demonstrated on an executive jet platform, but now they have to be demonstrated on Tejas prototype as well
• Demonstrating all the modes on a fighter jet is more of a challenge because it has to be stabilized during all types of maneuvers like rolls, turns, climbs, etc.
  
• Air to air and Air to sea modes have also been tested on Netra AEW&C which also uses LRDE's AESA radar
• To handle the increased agility of a fighter jet, the algorithms have had to be modified compared to what is present on the Netra AEW&C
• Air to ground modes have been tested on a Dornier Do-228 Flying Test Bed (FTB), although the radar is not of the same band as the AESA for LCA

Are these ADA's estimates? Metal cutting for MWF was supposed to happen later this year or early next year but with covid, it might be delayed to late next year

Yes, but for the Tejas Mk1A, it isn't ADA estimates that one should look for. They are not responsible for the Mk1A, it is HAL which is the nodal agency, since they suggested the Mk1A to the IAF.

The Tejas Mk2 estimates are from ADA.

Tejas Mk2 long lead items orders have been placed so that metal cutting can begin in April 2021. It got delayed by 1 year for some reasons, possibly the PDR being moved. Only after the PDRs are cleared will metal cutting begin.

 

[MirageBlue]

Tejas Mk1 in flight, flying next to a Su-30MKI

Pic credit- Sanjay Simha.

 

[KapitaanAli]

Flying Daggers:

 

[KapitaanAli]

A movie in a picture, NLCA:

 

[S.U.R.B.]

A movie in a picture, NLCA:

Bollywood ,Hollywood or the mixture of both?

 

[KapitaanAli]

Bollywood ,Hollywood or the mixture of both?

A GIF. : )

There's just a lot going on in the picture.

Thanks to Deb Rana.