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HAL HTT-40 First Flight in June - Armed Variant offered to Indian Army

What the heck happened to the HJT-36?


1024px-Hindustan_HJT-36_Sitara_Krivchikov_2007.jpg


Still no IOC? It was conceptualized in 1999!! WTF is going on at HAL?

This was supposed to have been inducted way back in 2007 :lol::lol:
 
I think its more like a case of HAL being given some kind of deadline before Ministry of Defence takes a call on IAF's request to buy further more Pilatus (& complete 183 required) and hence that June/July date.
& if that is the case, i agree with @sancho that HAL will try to buy some more time with a half baked product that (as per manufacturer) will show promise.
 
Mainstream, VOL LIII, No 20, May 9, 2015
HOW FAR CAN THE AIR FORCE’S BIASES GO?

Saturday 9 May 2015, by Ashok Parthasarathi


In the recent past, there have been several developments reflecting the title of this article. The first is the government‘s very close-to-formal decision-taking on a modern single piston engine aircraft for the induction training of the IAF’s rookee pilots. The HAL’s offer of the HTT-40 aircraft to meet approximately 70 of the IAF’s approved approximately 180 such basic trainers with the bulk of some 130 PC-7 Mark II being bought outright from the Swiss company Pilatus. Going in for the HTT-40 has been criticised by the IAF on three counts : (a) the HTT-40 is yet to make its maiden flight; (b) it is therefore not only inappropriate but downright dangerous to train first-time IAF pilots on such an aircraft even if it is indigenously designed, developed and prototyped; and (c) using both Pilatus and HTT-40 for the same role would lead to “avoidable” logistical problems.

My response is: when in 1982 we ordered 40 of the frontline operational Mirage-2000 multi-role fighter-bomber from the Dassault Company of France (light years more sophisti-cated than a basic trainer), Dassault had only two prototype Mirages going through flight trials—bias one in favour of the imported aircraft; bias two having substantial quantities of the HTT-40 (70) vis-a-vis 113 of the Pilatus does not pose logistical problems. Moreover, the locally designed and produced HTT-40 with a substantial vendor base is far superior to outright purchase of the Pilatus with its serious concommittant dependence on perpetual import of spares and huge training costs. Furthermore, if the IAF cannot commit itself to local aircraft even for a very basic trainer, its commitment to the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft named Tejas, now being produced by the HAL in a state-of-art production line at the HAL’s Bangalore plant, is dubious, its protestations and even its signature to the “Initial Operational Clearance” document of Tejas in late 2013 notwithstanding. However, the IAF is already very sore at being made to accept the superb indigenous Tejas. This programme is being launched with an initial production and supply of 40 aircraft of which four have already been supplied by the HAL and accepted by the IAF. The HTT-40 and all future basic trainers—an estimated 200—makes the IAF even more sore!

The second, of course, is: delays in supplies of operational aircraft. The example cited is, as usual, again Tejas. The Final Operational Clearance has again slipped (from end-2014 to mid-2015), say commentators.

What they do not say is this delay is purely because Tejas’ in-flight refueling system by a UK firm has been delayed by six months!Everything else of the operational Tejas—including its complete weapon complement—is fully ready. That was why the IAF accepted its first six, as indicated above.

But what the IAF guards like the family silver is the case of Design and Development (D&D) of the French Dassault Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) called Rafale for which Rs 65,000 crore contract for 126 aircraft is under the consideration of the government. The contract consists of 18 aircraft imported in fully finished form and the remaining 108 manufactured at the HAL with progressively increasing local content.

The D&D of the Rafale started in 1976 with a target of delivery of the first aircraft to the French Air Force in 1986. However, this target was crucially conditional on France’s public sector monopoly military aeroengine manu-facturer, SNECMA, holding to its commitment to the French Government to D&D and provide test engines in seven years from the programme-start in 1976. However, what actually happened is that SNECMA took 11 years to undertake that task. So, instead of delivery of the first operationalaircraft to the French Air Force in 1986, all that occurred in that year was the very first flight of a prototyope aircraft. This happened despite SNECMA having over 30 years of experience in D&D and series production of aeroengines for the Mirage-III, the Mirage-V, the Mirage F-1 and all variants of the Mirage-2000.

To turn now to the Rs 23,000-crore programme to replace the light transport fleet of Avro-748 aircraft of all three defence Services. The government appears to have decided to exclude The HAL from the supply programme solely to faciliatate the emergence of a private sector alternative to the HAL! This is a totally impractical decision by the government as none of even the private sector “majors”, namely, the Tatas, Mahindras and L&T, will be able to manufacture a credible Avro-748 replacement even with a foreign “collaboration”; they just do not have the manufacturing base and, more importantly, aircraft-related experience. It will only lead to a huge “brain-drain” from the HAL to the private sector rookies resulting in a loss to the nation as a whole. It is entirely correct from the national interest viewpoint for the HAL to lobby hard against this seriously incorrect government decision.

Finally, former Air Force Chief N.A.K. Browne’s “threat” (for that is all it is) that “if HAL continued to be unreliable”, the IAF would produce aircraft on its own at its Base Repair Depots (BRDs) is totally facetious. The BRDs cannot produce MMRCAs or Sukhoi-30 MKIs, let alone Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft. Only the HAL—with 70 years of experience behind it—can.

The author is a former S&T Adviser to late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi.

Source:- How Far Can the Air Force’s Biases Go? - Mainstream Weekly
 
Why can't we design a another light weight plane around Kaveri?? Kaveri did not produce the required power for LCA, but it is ours and can produce enough thrust for a further light plane than LCA??
 
Mainstream, VOL LIII, No 20, May 9, 2015
HOW FAR CAN THE AIR FORCE’S BIASES GO?

Saturday 9 May 2015, by Ashok Parthasarathi


In the recent past, there have been several developments reflecting the title of this article. The first is the government‘s very close-to-formal decision-taking on a modern single piston engine aircraft for the induction training of the IAF’s rookee pilots. The HAL’s offer of the HTT-40 aircraft to meet approximately 70 of the IAF’s approved approximately 180 such basic trainers with the bulk of some 130 PC-7 Mark II being bought outright from the Swiss company Pilatus. Going in for the HTT-40 has been criticised by the IAF on three counts : (a) the HTT-40 is yet to make its maiden flight; (b) it is therefore not only inappropriate but downright dangerous to train first-time IAF pilots on such an aircraft even if it is indigenously designed, developed and prototyped; and (c) using both Pilatus and HTT-40 for the same role would lead to “avoidable” logistical problems.

My response is: when in 1982 we ordered 40 of the frontline operational Mirage-2000 multi-role fighter-bomber from the Dassault Company of France (light years more sophisti-cated than a basic trainer), Dassault had only two prototype Mirages going through flight trials—bias one in favour of the imported aircraft; bias two having substantial quantities of the HTT-40 (70) vis-a-vis 113 of the Pilatus does not pose logistical problems. Moreover, the locally designed and produced HTT-40 with a substantial vendor base is far superior to outright purchase of the Pilatus with its serious concommittant dependence on perpetual import of spares and huge training costs. Furthermore, if the IAF cannot commit itself to local aircraft even for a very basic trainer, its commitment to the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft named Tejas, now being produced by the HAL in a state-of-art production line at the HAL’s Bangalore plant, is dubious, its protestations and even its signature to the “Initial Operational Clearance” document of Tejas in late 2013 notwithstanding. However, the IAF is already very sore at being made to accept the superb indigenous Tejas. This programme is being launched with an initial production and supply of 40 aircraft of which four have already been supplied by the HAL and accepted by the IAF. The HTT-40 and all future basic trainers—an estimated 200—makes the IAF even more sore!

The second, of course, is: delays in supplies of operational aircraft. The example cited is, as usual, again Tejas. The Final Operational Clearance has again slipped (from end-2014 to mid-2015), say commentators.

What they do not say is this delay is purely because Tejas’ in-flight refueling system by a UK firm has been delayed by six months!Everything else of the operational Tejas—including its complete weapon complement—is fully ready. That was why the IAF accepted its first six, as indicated above.

But what the IAF guards like the family silver is the case of Design and Development (D&D) of the French Dassault Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) called Rafale for which Rs 65,000 crore contract for 126 aircraft is under the consideration of the government. The contract consists of 18 aircraft imported in fully finished form and the remaining 108 manufactured at the HAL with progressively increasing local content.

The D&D of the Rafale started in 1976 with a target of delivery of the first aircraft to the French Air Force in 1986. However, this target was crucially conditional on France’s public sector monopoly military aeroengine manu-facturer, SNECMA, holding to its commitment to the French Government to D&D and provide test engines in seven years from the programme-start in 1976. However, what actually happened is that SNECMA took 11 years to undertake that task. So, instead of delivery of the first operationalaircraft to the French Air Force in 1986, all that occurred in that year was the very first flight of a prototyope aircraft. This happened despite SNECMA having over 30 years of experience in D&D and series production of aeroengines for the Mirage-III, the Mirage-V, the Mirage F-1 and all variants of the Mirage-2000.

To turn now to the Rs 23,000-crore programme to replace the light transport fleet of Avro-748 aircraft of all three defence Services. The government appears to have decided to exclude The HAL from the supply programme solely to faciliatate the emergence of a private sector alternative to the HAL! This is a totally impractical decision by the government as none of even the private sector “majors”, namely, the Tatas, Mahindras and L&T, will be able to manufacture a credible Avro-748 replacement even with a foreign “collaboration”; they just do not have the manufacturing base and, more importantly, aircraft-related experience. It will only lead to a huge “brain-drain” from the HAL to the private sector rookies resulting in a loss to the nation as a whole. It is entirely correct from the national interest viewpoint for the HAL to lobby hard against this seriously incorrect government decision.

Finally, former Air Force Chief N.A.K. Browne’s “threat” (for that is all it is) that “if HAL continued to be unreliable”, the IAF would produce aircraft on its own at its Base Repair Depots (BRDs) is totally facetious. The BRDs cannot produce MMRCAs or Sukhoi-30 MKIs, let alone Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft. Only the HAL—with 70 years of experience behind it—can.

The author is a former S&T Adviser to late Prime Minister Indira Gandhi.

Source:- How Far Can the Air Force’s Biases Go? - Mainstream Weekly


The replies of the author doesn't really make sense. He is showing the Mirage to be as unproven back than, as the HTT40 would be now, but the point is, that the pilots that would use the HTT 40 are unexperienced newbees, while Mirage pilots would be experienced once, which can handle a problem in an unproven aircraft better than a new pilot could. That's reduces the risks, while the combination of HTT40 + new pilots increases it!

He is also mistaken about the logistical part, where points to the origin of spares (produced in India vs abroad), while the IAF means, that operating 2 different "types" of aircrafts in the same role, requires 2 different types of spares => increased logistical problems. IF HAL instead had focused to use the same subsystems in their trainer, as the PC7 uses, the logistical burden would had been lower for IAF, while using only 1 type of trainer logically means just 1 type of spares => the lowest possible logistical burden.
The rest of the article gets only worse, because he ignores that IAF waited for HAL to deliver a trainer option for years, UNTIL the risk of keep using HTT32 was simply too high. So they committed themselfs as long as possible and the same goes for LCA, where they still show their commitment with an increased MK1 order, although delivery is delayed for a decade and the order of 4 x MK2 squads.
 
Armed variant of HTT-40 variant offered to Indian Army
HAL_HTT-40_model.JPG
After Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd., (HAL) was able to save its in-house HTT-40 project to develop light trainer aircraft for Indian Air force, after IAF had repeatedly turned down the project recently it got a boost when Defence ministry ordered IAF to place orders for HTT-40 to be used in Stage-I training of Pilots.

HAL now fears that IAF which operates Swiss-made Pilatus PC-7 Mark-II in large numbers will not a place a large order to make whole project financially viable, IAF also showed no interest in Armed variant of HTT-40 offered by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL). So HAL now plans to offer Armed variant of HTT-40 to Indian Army. HAL sources close to idrw.org have confirmed that HAL wants to develop Armed variant of HTT-40 but refused to confirm if talks are been held with Indian Army.

Hal plans to incorporate 4th-generation avionics and weapons system on armed variant and from design stage HAL had factored in weapons station in aircraft structure, so there is lower turnaround time to develop armed variant. HAL’s key selling point will be aircraft’s ability to be used in counter-insurgency and Anti-Naxals operations by Indian Army and Paramilitary forces.

According to HAL, Armed HTT-40 can also be used for light attack, counter-insurgency (COIN), close air support, aerial reconnaissance missions, in low threat environments and work in close operations with attack helicopters like LCH (Light combat Helicopter ) in support of anti-tank role and scout duties .

HAL also is trying to get Indian navy on-board HTT-40 project. Navy currently is dependent on IAF for training its pilots in Stage-I/II level. HAL also sees great export potential for such light-armed attack variant which could be used by Air force in low-threat environments.

Source:- Armed variant of HTT-40 variant offered to Indian Army | idrw.org
Just a prototype?
 
Hal plans to incorporate 4th-generation avionics and weapons system on armed variant and from design stage HAL had factored in weapons station in aircraft structure, so there is lower turnaround time to develop armed variant. HAL’s key selling point will be aircraft’s ability to be used in counter-insurgency and Anti-Naxals operations by Indian Army and Paramilitary forces.
Ok since this is in red and you could not leave it like the rest of the article, I must ask you if you know you can post quotes and your opinions after posting the article
Let us see what is the use of a plane which is slow, can be targeted, and has more risk to the pilots. The counter insurgents would have fun shooting them down. Look at the maximum speed and more importantly the service ceiling of the plane.
 
HAL HTT-40 First Flight in June?????

June 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018.......

I do not believe on HAL................. When they start testing & production.... why people listing HAL everytime.
2020!

Ok since this is in red and you could not leave it like the rest of the article, I must ask you if you know you can post quotes and your opinions after posting the article
Let us see what is the use of a plane which is slow, can be targeted, and has more risk to the pilots. The counter insurgents would have fun shooting them down. Look at the maximum speed and more importantly the service ceiling of the plane.
lol usual HAL bullshit to the gullible ignorant media !

What the heck happened to the HJT-36?


1024px-Hindustan_HJT-36_Sitara_Krivchikov_2007.jpg


Still no IOC? It was conceptualized in 1999!! WTF is going on at HAL?
its their new Cash cow just like LCA. after another 10 years and billions of rupee pocketed they will beg their brothers in MOD to force it down IAF throat !
 
The replies of the author doesn't really make sense. He is showing the Mirage to be as unproven back than, as the HTT40 would be now, but the point is, that the pilots that would use the HTT 40 are unexperienced newbees, while Mirage pilots would be experienced once, which can handle a problem in an unproven aircraft better than a new pilot could. That's reduces the risks, while the combination of HTT40 + new pilots increases it!

He is also mistaken about the logistical part, where points to the origin of spares (produced in India vs abroad), while the IAF means, that operating 2 different "types" of aircrafts in the same role, requires 2 different types of spares => increased logistical problems. IF HAL instead had focused to use the same subsystems in their trainer, as the PC7 uses, the logistical burden would had been lower for IAF, while using only 1 type of trainer logically means just 1 type of spares => the lowest possible logistical burden.
The rest of the article gets only worse, because he ignores that IAF waited for HAL to deliver a trainer option for years, UNTIL the risk of keep using HTT32 was simply too high. So they committed themselfs as long as possible and the same goes for LCA, where they still show their commitment with an increased MK1 order, although delivery is delayed for a decade and the order of 4 x MK2 squads.
the writer is cluless. he is just crapping the bullshit fed by HAL PR dept ( the only fucntional dept of HAL)!! Talking about spare parts i am damn sure that
foreign vendors will supply the spares quickly than the lazt bums at HAL!
 
Ok since this is in red and you could not leave it like the rest of the article, I must ask you if you know you can post quotes and your opinions after posting the article
Let us see what is the use of a plane which is slow, can be targeted, and has more risk to the pilots. The counter insurgents would have fun shooting them down. Look at the maximum speed and more importantly the service ceiling of the plane.

Same case apply to Super Tucano like fixed wing Aircraft & Apache like Helicopter.
Shoulder Fired heat seeking missile would be dealt by chaff & flare dispenser.
And I don't think that Pilot would be fly so low & slow to be in range of RPG.
 
Same case apply to Super Tucano like fixed wing Aircraft & Apache like Helicopter.
Shoulder Fired heat seeking missile would be dealt by chaff & flare dispenser.
And I don't think that Pilot would be fly so low & slow to be in range of RPG.
you just compared a low flying Apache with a fixed propeller plane research how many ways you are wrong then come thank this when you understand more
 
you just compared a low flying Apache with a fixed propeller plane research how many ways you are wrong then come thank this when you understand more
Can you explain me ?
Super Tucano also have same role.
 
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