Hafiz saeed to challenge US bounty in international court

[Armstrong]

I doubt the US/India have any substantial proof implicating HS. Contrary to common belief, I do not think this move was primarily to placate India, but is indicative of the failed WOT efforts in Afghanistan, & the perceived lack of support from Pakistan; trying to play hardball to save face.

To some of the Indian members asking why would the US/India charge HS without proof, why did the US government include the name of Hamid Gul in the list of international terrorists? Just because someone is anti-American does not make him a terrorist, presenting substantiated/unequivocal/undisputed evidence does, which India & the US have failed to provide. There is really no use of using emotions & the media as a tool to get the message across, when there is no substantiated/unequivocal/undisputed evidence to back up the unfounded accusations.

Actually thats exactly how today's world works ! Paint someone out as the enemy, then say something about them often enough and by the people who matter, and that something becomes the accepted version of the truth. Case in point : Communist Russia !

 

[53fd]

what do want me to explain to you, you believe in propaganda stuff kiddo. The ISI was deemed to be terror supporting organization by the US- Fact. That your LET and JUD are just closed in name only ( fact) and the US and other world heads have told your govt. to reign in these organizations and heads as seen with his bounty now ( fact)?

you want me to discuss your fantasy theories in face of those facts?

17 weeks till you don't have to see the " oh " look on the face on campus when you introduce your nationality.

If the ISI has been labeled as a terrorist/terror sponsoring organization by the US, why is the US still in close cooperation with it?

 

[Jango]

and again -- for the record -- I'm neither a ''terrorist sympathizer'' nor am I even ''sympathizing'' for anything here other than legal procedures and the writ of the Lahore High Court.

it's actually the indian establishment that is in contempt of court and most certainly not expediting justice for the families of those killed during the mumbai terrorist attacks


as for the Americans -- well I already explained the mathematics behind the decision to put a bounty on HS. The Americans know exactly where he lives, I can assure you that. The location of his Johar town residence is hardly even a secret.

if Al Jazeera has no problem getting in contact with HS, it should be no problem for American courts or concerned government officials in the U.S. to get in contact with him


if terror charges are substantiated in a court, it is important that HS and others facing similar (and substantiated) charges face harsh sanctions


but without solid evidence, the Americans and the indians sitting by their knees are simply wasting their time.

Well a statement came out from the US FO today, stating that, A 1 million reward is for a person who helps ti find or gives evidence to the US , evidence which can then be presented in court to prove Hafiz Saeed guilty.. Not for a guy who gives his address!!!!

Meaning in theory that the US has no proof at the moment to try him in court, and then no basis to have him on a most wanted list. ( the Mumbai attack link thing is BS, US had to wait 4 years to get to know that this guy might have been involved?)

 

[Yeti]

If the ISI has been labeled as a terrorist/terror sponsoring organization by the US, why is the US still in close cooperation with it?

Not the whole of the ISI but the S-wing was termed as gone rogue.

 

[53fd]

Not the whole of the ISI but the S-wing was termed as gone rogue.

But if I am not wrong, classified US documents stated that the ISI was a terrorist/terror sponsoring organization. Which again begs the question, why is the US still in close cooperation with it?

P.S. What is the S-Wing of the ISI btw?

 

[Yeti]

But if I am not wrong, classified US documents stated that the ISI was a terrorist/terror sponsoring organization. Which again begs the question, why is the US still in close cooperation with it?

P.S. What is the S-Wing of the ISI btw?

It was the S-wing that had that label not the whole if the ISI.


Pakistani ISI 'S Wing' aids terror groups in South and Central Asia - Threat Matrix



The secretive S Wing of ISI is under fresh scrutiny in the wake of Osama bin Laden's killing and the ongoing trial of Tahawwur Rana in Chicago where David Headley has narrated in detail ISI's role in the Mumbai attacks.
The ISI's involvement and planning for Mumbai attacks would have been handled by the S Wing, sources here said.

ISI coordinates all its work with terrorist groups through S Wing, a secretive, powerful and probably dispersed network that includes a number of retired military personnel. The S Wing may have "hundreds of retired military officers and terror leaders" on its rolls, said a senior official. "All that we know about ISI may not fully explain this monster," he said of ISI and its S Wing.

 

[Armstrong]

But if I am not wrong, classified US documents stated that the ISI was a terrorist/terror sponsoring organization. Which again begs the question, why is the US still in close cooperation with it?

P.S. What is the S-Wing of the ISI btw?

Because its the only belligerent on their side who actually delivers some results !

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

what do want me to explain to you, you believe in propaganda stuff kiddo. The ISI was deemed to be terror supporting organization by the US- Fact.

what the ISI does and what the CIA does is very similar

so if ISI is a terrorist organization, then perhaps you'd agree that almost all intelligence agencies (most certainly CIA would figure high on the list) are terrorist organizations

Fact.

That your LET and JUD are just closed in name only ( fact) and the US and other world heads have told your govt. to reign in these organizations and heads as seen with his bounty now ( fact)?

first of all, these are organizations that have or do operate in Pakistan....neither do i have the MEANS nor the WILL to support them. So refrain from the ''your'' terminology.

second of all, LeT doesnt exist. It's a banned organization. Doesnt mean that they cant just open up under a different name with different faces -- but then again the issue here is JuD. Thus far sufficient proof of their involvement in 26/11 is vague (at best). I've seen the on TV the way some of those guys talk. It's alarming, but then again so are the things that the KKK says or what Shiv Sena says in public. Unless there is illegal activity (especially something as serious as a terrorism charge) that can be proven, the courts legally can not order him (HS, the defendant) to be under detention.

He was under detention (at the behest of both US and india) and that order was later revoked by the LHC. Take it up with the courts; i'm just a messenger and someone who believes in free and fair access to a free and fair trial (and we have a ways to go in ensuring justice for all of our citizens and strengthening the power of the judiciary).

you want me to discuss your fantasy theories in face of those facts?

what was it about legal proceeding that I (in my admittedly amateur use of basic legal terminology) was incorrect about? I'm wrong that people (even the most hardened suspects) dont deserve a fair trial? I'm wrong about habeus corpus, or the supremity of any country's Constitution? I'm wrong about the fact that to-date, india has failed to provide sufficient evidence to close this man behind bars for any wrong-doing? I'm wrong (or at least ''flawed'') in my personal opinion that the timing of this bounty is suspect in and of itself - especially at this critical juncture where the resumption of NATO supplies seems to figure high on US list of demands on Pakistan?


instead of being lazy, just go back a few pages and point out for me these fantasy theories.....it is FACTS and counter-arguments, not drivel and emotional garbage, that I am asking for.

17 weeks till you don't have to see the " oh " look on the face on campus when you introduce your nationality.

the Pakistani student body is very much present and quite active. They've done wonders in promoting Pakistani culture, cuisine and ''voice''

This is DC, not Kansas friggin City. There is no ''oh'' factor around here....not to say that I havent encountered disagreements with some of my American counterparts --but hey -- we are all here to learn from eachother.

And at any rate, i'd rather receive an ''oh'' in DC than receive a ''bashing'' in Australia -- if ya catch my drift


to answer your question -- yes 17 weeks and then goodbye US of A. Hopefully it wouldnt be my last visit either, I like American people and would never wish harm upon them.



so you can do as I've told you to do...go back, revisit the posts, and correct or address my points.....otherwise, i'm done wasting my precious time when i could be doing much more useful things

 

[Armstrong]

It was the S-wing that had that label not the whole if the ISI.


Pakistani ISI 'S Wing' aids terror groups in South and Central Asia - Threat Matrix



The secretive S Wing of ISI is under fresh scrutiny in the wake of Osama bin Laden's killing and the ongoing trial of Tahawwur Rana in Chicago where David Headley has narrated in detail ISI's role in the Mumbai attacks.
The ISI's involvement and planning for Mumbai attacks would have been handled by the S Wing, sources here said.

ISI coordinates all its work with terrorist groups through S Wing, a secretive, powerful and probably dispersed network that includes a number of retired military personnel. The S Wing may have "hundreds of retired military officers and terror leaders" on its rolls, said a senior official. "All that we know about ISI may not fully explain this monster," he said of ISI and its S Wing.

If there is an ISI S-Wing, I seriously doubt that it operates with autonomy and impunity with respect to the rest of the ISI, never mind the Army !

And these 'unnamed senior officials' and 'unnamed intelligence sources' led to the Iraq War and guess what 8 years (is it?) down the lane and they haven't even found a bloody fire-cracker, let alone a WMD, so forgive me if my confidence in the veracity of such claims, is a bit shaken.

 

[53fd]

It was the S-wing that had that label not the whole if the ISI.


Pakistani ISI 'S Wing' aids terror groups in South and Central Asia - Threat Matrix



The secretive S Wing of ISI is under fresh scrutiny in the wake of Osama bin Laden's killing and the ongoing trial of Tahawwur Rana in Chicago where David Headley has narrated in detail ISI's role in the Mumbai attacks.
The ISI's involvement and planning for Mumbai attacks would have been handled by the S Wing, sources here said.

ISI coordinates all its work with terrorist groups through S Wing, a secretive, powerful and probably dispersed network that includes a number of retired military personnel. The S Wing may have "hundreds of retired military officers and terror leaders" on its rolls, said a senior official. "All that we know about ISI may not fully explain this monster," he said of ISI and its S Wing.

The ISI S-Wing is nothing but a figment of India's imagination, which only propped up post 26/11 Mumbai attacks in Headley's testimony, accusing the ISI S-Wing of providing training to the LeT operatives, in order to make it complicit in the 26/11 attacks. There is no C or S Wing of the ISI. I have a few relatives in higher up positions in the ISI too, I have some inside knowledge on it, but I've never heard this before.

Just because a propaganda website like the Long War Journal quotes an Indian source, & claims it to be fact does not necessarily make it true.

 

[Yeti]

The ISI S-Wing is nothing but a figment of India's imagination, which only propped up post 26/11 Mumbai attacks in Headley's testimony, accusing the ISI S-Wing of providing training to the LeT operatives, in order to make it complicit in the 26/11 attacks. There is no C or S Wing of the ISI. I have a few relatives in higher up positions in the ISI as well, & I have never heard this before.

Well to be fair you can't blame just India when all the western intelligence agencies have said this also. Not to mention Pakistani journalist Saleem Shahzad who was killed 'alleged' to be done by the ISI.

 

[Ignited Mind]

The ISI S-Wing is nothing but a figment of India's imagination, which only propped up post 26/11 Mumbai attacks in Headley's testimony, accusing the ISI S-Wing of providing training to the LeT operatives, in order to make it complicit in the 26/11 attacks. There is no C or S Wing of the ISI. I have a few relatives in higher up positions in the ISI too, I have some inside knowledge on it, but I've never heard this before.

Just because a propaganda website like the Long War Journal quotes an Indian source, & claims it to be fact does not necessarily make it true.

...and just because you say so, doesn't make it untrue either, Bilal.

 

[Yeti]

If there is an ISI S-Wing, I seriously doubt that it operates with autonomy and impunity with respect to the rest of the ISI, never mind the Army !

And these 'unnamed senior officials' and 'unnamed intelligence sources' led to the Iraq War and guess what 8 years (is it?) down the lane and they haven't even found a bloody fire-cracker, let alone a WMD, so forgive me if my confidence in the veracity of such claims, is a bit shaken.

Whether there is such a thing will we ever know? I mean the whole purpose is to maintain secrecy otherwise what is the point of having intelligence agencies in the first place.

But history and even Mushy has said in the past the ISI did create groups for waging proxy war in Kashmir that is a known fact.

 

[53fd]

Well to be fair you can't blame just India when all the western intelligence agencies have said this also. Not to mention Pakistani journalist Saleem Shahzad who was killed 'alleged' to be done by the ISI.

Well, the Western intelligence agencies have an added dimension from the WOT, & with Pakistan being directly involved in the WOT, the Western intelligence agencies have their incentives for doing what they do. The ISI S-Wing only propped up in the aftermath of the 26/11 Mumbai attacks. It's interesting it never propped up before that, considering how closely the ISI & CIA have been working together since the last few decades. Timing of the news released in international political affairs is very important.

 

[Armstrong]

Well to be fair you can't blame just India when all the western intelligence agencies have said this also. Not to mention Pakistani journalist Saleem Shahzad who was killed 'alleged' to be done by the ISI.

Don't you think that an Intelligence Organization thats allegedly good enough to pull off Mumbai, swindle the Americans in Afghanistan, support the Haqqanis and hide Osama, to name a few, would be as sloppy as they were in Shahzad's case ? That they would have taken him out and then dumped his body for all to see the way they did after he had, allegedly, already intimated to a whole bunch of people that should he be eliminated the ISI should be the prime suspect.