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Gwadar goes red - Specabad.

Why not. I actually agree with him. It's more in-line with the future of Pak-China union like the EU union...



Why are Indian so concerned about the future of the "Pakistan Experiment" ?


For first part ... ChiPak comes to my mind. I like that. I will in fact use it. Since nations are now more like LLC or MNC ... ChiPak Inc. :)

On topic, it is not why, it is at what price. Read the rejoinder he has given, pity such monoliths. Have you got enough leeway to actually safeguard your interests and not be subservient to that of Chinese? How about the autonomy of your own Identity as State? I raise the issues as news of trying to mainstream Yuan made the headlines.

If it is not, ironically, modern day repeat of British East India Company, then what is?
Srilankan example is there for you.
 
Considering the shit status of Karachi due to our government in Sindh , confidence is quite low
It is best we work with Chinese authories to develop the port & city on international standard.

Give China control of whole city ops and step out of their way

Have Pakistani Team observe and Learn from experience Chinese bring in City planning

The moment Pakistani Low end developers will get involved in city projects , the quality of planning and building development will drastically fall in quality
 
On a more serious note;
Hong Kong may be Chinese but the British made them successful by stripping of the vast majority of Chinese traditions and cultural norms and replacing them with Western values. The tragedy here is that Hong Kong was and still is considered a counter project to the Communist Chinese mainland.

In this sense, if you want to have a Hong Kong like city in Gwadar, you should quite the CPEC project. However, CPEC is nothing else than an attempt by the mainland Chinese to replicate the Western success story of Hong Kong and Singapore on a much larger scale in order to prove the superiority of the mainland ideology.

The moment the Communist Party of China registers major steps in the right direction in Pakistan, they will promote this project internationally, in the West and in the East. They will present Pakistan as a Chinese made success story; an Islamic state and society which has been modernized by Communist Chinese.

But, right now, Pakistan first hast to prove herself to the Chinese. There are still barely perceptible doubts in China about Pakistan. This is the reason why the Chinese always want major securities for every kind of investment in Pakistan.
 
Why always China? For instance, Turkey is building a "trade base" in Dubai and Tahran. Why not giving "Specabad" to Turkey? We could build a base in Pakistan instead of Iran or UAE. Our trade with China is growing every year. Look at our imports from China (in billion USD):

oM8vI8VfQEmUHSO_LV5PkA.png



We could trade with China and GCC through Pakistan. Building an "old town" in Turkish architectural style in Gwadar is possible:

v2


Skyscrapers are no problem either, China isn't the only one who can build them:

v2


:P

I absolutely agree with you that Turkey has all the right elements to help Pakistan and develop Gwader into a great port city. There is no shortage of goodwill and technical skill. However I wonder, with respect, where is the money from Turkey?

As far as I can see, CPEC is open to all of keen investors, either from public or private sectors. We have seen so much talks about investing in Pakistan but we have seen little materialized. China is the only one actually going to Pakistan, carrying hard earned cash, taking on all the risks and working tirelessly in the harsh condition along with Pakistani friends. Chinese may not talk much but we show friendship in deed.

By the way, it is still not too late to invest in Pakistan and be the founding investors. If Turkey can join the project with serious money, we would expect many other Muslim countries to join as well. Please help market the opportunity in Turkey . There are further details on Pakistan's Board Of Investment website. :yahoo:

http://boi.gov.pk/InfoCenter/CPEC.aspx
 
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good idea i love this plan


My earlier reply to you on this has been deleted as it was construed being 'trolling/derailing' (no specific reason explained, merely a limitation of the understanding of the quip, perhaps?).

However, let me sound intellectual when I repeat the same points which I made in a summation, in a more elaborate way.

I love this plan too. And I would seriously enjoy it being emulated all over the country itself, not merely a small segment. My love for this plan has the admixture of a potential for enhanced security and stability of Pakistan as a Nation (thereby insuring Indian security).

A larger and stronger Chinese presence in Pakistan will be the natural progression of any incremental investment in the Pakistani Economy. I have used the words "incremental investment" to encompass both the economic meaning as also the military meaning of the words.

The underlying security challenges to the Pakistani State are from the masses of radicalized citizen, who are increasingly demonstrating their ability to hijack the national agenda and render them to a background role in the larger game being played out with the aim of using religion and it's distortions to continue to erode the credentials of the Pakistani state.

The recent incidents of Faislabad interchange wherein an elected government of a Sovereign nation was forced to 'back out' in front of a motley group of what may best be called a disruptive group, and where in the Armed Forces clearly occupied a position of withdrawal of support and refusing the legal directive of the said government by stepping in to enforce the orders as passed by the IHC, indicates to the population in general and the external world, the ability of these radical groups to quickly undermine the State - both the executive and the judiciary.

In such a scenario, the logic of exclusive Chinese industrial parks/townships as envisaged under the CPEC plan (as far as what can be revealed from the CPEC Masterplan as published by Khurram Husain in Dawn dated 21 Jun 2017 link: https://www.dawn.com/news/1333101), makes sense only till these groups assume upon them the role of guardianship of the 'faith' (or whatever is their view of it anyway) , whereupon, these groups will be an antithetical force to the said Chinese. The disruptive effects on the Pakistani Agricultural Sector are apparent on a cursory glance, but of course remain a mere 'figment of imagination' to the unabashed apologists.

It is this underlying conflict of interest (if I may use the term) with the Chinese, that is the most comical and most serious threat that the Chinese will face. If we take the example of only the Agricultural Sector, the strata of citizens involved here, renders them most susceptible to the changes being envisaged. Right from production to the processing to storage to transport and marketing, the proposed integration of Chinese firms and companies will have serious disruptions in this sector for the average Pakistani. It is this group that shall increasingly look towards the above mentioned fringe and radicalized groups, to provide support and succour, with the alternative being a perceptibly weakened Government which does not have the capability or the ability to enforce it's writ over the State.

Let us be very clear and very honest, the Chinese have raised their reservations to Pakistan over the present trends and directions in the Pakistani society. That the Pakistani Army did nothing to check this group, will be a point noted in China, and by these groups as also hundreds of thousands of impressionable minds who will gravitate to this group now. This will also pit Pakistan Army against this subset increasingly as the societal and filial connections with the group will serve to undermine the effort, if and when required, against the groups(s).

With the trends developing, the CPEC will be crucial for PRC for it's long term security and commercial needs. Nowhere in near proximity will China get thousands of Hectares for it's agricultural needs, nor unabridged access to markets for employment generation for it's own population, in the face of increased automation and refining of both production and development, which is reducing the number of jobs in order to enable cost competitiveness and consistent quality controls. In the trends of Global economic scenario, the only way to rejig for the challenges ahead for all industries is to reduce the overheads incurred per cost center and this is where the automation will come into play.

So, what alternatives do you see? An increased Chinese security presence is my estimation, as Pakistan Army will face challenges in it's tasking if the present trends continue. You can only allow the society to be ruled by the radicals till a certain point. The day they are allowed to project themselves stronger than the State and it's Judiciary, that day is the day the downfall of the nation starts.

The above is a condition ripe wherein the PRC may be forced to protect it's interests and investments by, in the worst case scenario, deployment of it's own security forces (Hint: This is where the re-run of Trans-Siberian rail network comes into play @nair). The PRC experience in Xinjiang has been an open secret, and the emulation of the same can not be discounted. That ofcourse, directly or indirectly forces PA to act against these groups without differentiation as these groups are cut of the same cloth, be it against Afghanistan, Pakistan or India.

As an Indian, and as a member who has deep interests in matters of security, for me, nothing else could be a more healthy and more productive outcome for Indian security than an increased Chinese presence.

Considering the shit status of Karachi due to our government in Sindh , confidence is quite low
It is best we work with Chinese authories to develop the port & city on international standard.

What do you think will be the status of an increasingly weakened (already the civil institutions were weakened to ensure predominance of an organ of the State that works like State is an organ of it) GoP in the aftermath of the surrender at Faislabad interchange in front of radicalised groups? And what do you think will be the impact of the clear failure of the Armed Forces to back up the elected Government of the Sovereign State thereby emboldening the radical fringe groups and mainstreaming them as a potent political force?



Give China control of whole city ops and step out of their way

Do you not find the parallel between the Chinese history (loss of 'Outer Mongolia' to Russia in garb of Trans Siberian Network and stationing of troops by Russia to safeguard their investment, apparently done to help China hedge against the foreigners in garb of Japan, US, British and Germans?) and the present roll out of scene here, rather uncanny?


@Imran Khan You concur to the above?
 
Nah I am cool , China you do your thing in Gawadar :pakistan::china:

Government of Pakistan make it easy as possible for China to make a awesome port and city

The responsibility really lies with Government of Pakistan, to fast track other segments
a) Water supply
b) Desalination plant
c) Administrative paperwork tasks
 
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It'll be just like the Hong Kong colony.
But Chinese got it back from the British after British did all the work, for political reasons.
There won't be an economic reason to hand over the hammerhead to Pak after 50 years.

It's a business and the only way forward will be to encroach more Indus land.
And for this reason, this future impasse, Chinese companies will not start with this. They'll register a negative growth in the future.
 
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It'll be just like the Hong Kong colony.
But Chinese got it back from the British after British did all the work, for political reasons.
There won't be an economic reason to hand over the hammerhead to Pak after 50 years.

It's a business and the only way forward will be to encroach more Indus land.
And for this reason, this future impasse, Chinese companies will not start with this. They'll register a negative growth in the future.
Why are you so worried then... you should support china in it...
 
Why are you so worried then... you should support china in it...
We've different mentalities.
I'd hate to see China encroaching your land. It's not even about our rivalry with China.
I respect whatever is left of Pakistani culture.
China has already taken over lands and cultures they shouldn't have, including Shaksgam.
It's shameful and sad.


And yes, of course I'm worried about China at our doorstep. But not too much since that also makes them easier targets. :flame:
 
On a more serious note;
Brother, I really appreciate your posts, Really do. I think Turkey is my favourite country in the world. In other forums I have seen Turks defending Pakistan [western forums] when nobody else will do. And I respect all Turks irrespective of the political spectrum but trust me on this you guy's don't understand Pakistan. I don't want to sound like blowing my trumpet but whereever I have gone in the West I openly tout my Pakistani lineage. And further I brook no servile mentality. I sincerely believe and this might sound arrogant that Indus region has been one the crucibles of civilization. We have produced some of the greatest civiizations known to mankind. And I say we. Not freakin Indians or anybody else. I am quite firm and clear in my identity. Never do I give a inch to westerners just because right now they are doing well. The thing is you have to be secure in your own identity and have respect in your peoples genius. So I harbour no inferiority complex but think we are where we are right now because of historical circumstance and policy mistakes. Once these are fixed we will be on top of the world again.

Therefore i take a very matter of fact functional approach without getting constipated about issues reveloving around misplaced pride etc. For me sovereignty means my people are well fed, prosperous, living in a developed country like I do. That is real sovereignty. Not flying green flags but seeing my people living in slums or begging on streets or drowning in boats as illegal migrants in the Mediteranean and people treating them like dogs. That really hurts me. It hurts my soul.

Look at you. You were not long ago one of the greatest empires on earth. When we had become slaves of English and I take no pleasure in saying that. It is fact. It is something we have to acknowledge, swallow, learn lessons from and move forward. You Turks had [Greeks/Bulgars etc] Europeans as your slaves but we had become slaves of [English] Europeans.

Yet observe this thing. Turkey had no issues with allowing massive NATO bases being constructed on your sacred soil. You allowed and allow right now thousands of NATO troops stationed on you sacred soil. You had your own clothing. Yet today you wear standard international clothing. I have yet to see Turkish President dressed like this.

bde4fac17022e45b12edd04d0992c1a9.jpg



We as people were slaves of Europeans and that has left us with a deep abiding sense of colonized complex. That is why words like "westoxified" etc have been coined. Showing convergence with what you might see in the West can be source of ridicule. Where am I going with this? Any functional idea like the one I proposed will all too often being looked at from the slave mentality left over from the colonial times which of course only ended in 1947.

As regards Turkey as I already said I am fond of it. And actually making linkages with Turkish economy would be easier for Pakistan. There is more cultural, racial, historical convergence between Turkey and Pakistan then with China. How come I never paddle in this direction but sing songs about China?

Well you might know I am regarded as having a tilt for Iran. In fact sometimes some nutters here start assuming I am shia when I come from a conservative Sunni family. The reason for the tilt toward Iran is actually by-product of my fondness for Turkey. Pakistan and Turkey are not that far apart and but have one country sat bang in the middle. Iran.

The fact is Pak-Turk strategic calculus is not going to go very far without Iran being stitched into the equation. This is a physical fact and no amount of contortionist thinking will overcome this reality. We had in the 1960s RCD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Cooperation_for_Development#cite_note-3

07ddb946faf674fabe65d607fe210d5c.jpg



jahojalal-RCD1976-Iran.png



Rcd.jpg



RCD never went very far in 1960s because all three countries were very underdeveloped. However had RCD remained in place today Turkey is regional econonmic power and that allied with Iranian economic respources leveraging the huge market of Pakistan would see the entire region buzz with econonomic activity.

The entire Pakistani auto, engineering products, construction market would have been dominated by Turkish companies. The entire power generation and oil market by Iranian companies. In return our agri-industry but be taking off. There would have been economic synergy by now with each countries economy complementing and creating economic multipliers. Turkey to Iran would be matter of catching regular trains, coaches or trucking networks. All three economie would get increasingly integrated and we would have sort of reincarnation of the order established by Alexander the Great over 2000 years ago. This time it would be economic. And this would have further been boosted by CPEC and trade with China.


KIeOJ5i.png

Instead because of the sectarian nutters, Saudi apologists and Iranian mullahs Iran instead of being a bridge between Anatolia and the Indus has become a huge barrier that cuts Turkey off from Pakistan. And there is no other way around.

46seEWF.png

Alexander's Empire

Alexander+the+Great%2527s+Journey.png



However let's be realistic about it. Between USA, Saudia Arabia, Mullahs Iran is going to remain "locked". So this possibility is off the list. Central Asia is blocked off by Afghanistan and things are not about to change anytime soon. GCC/KSA despite all the big talk will never accept Pakistan within their economic orbit. They have illusions toward MENA and Arab based unions. What they have done is bought out some of our elite with money and this just acts as a spolier preventing clear vision and stopping Pakistan from moving forward. This also feeds into ummah pipedream. When ask @Saif al-Arab if he would accept Pakistan as a economic patner in a wider GCC. But the feeling I get from there is the think that Pakistan is 10,000 miles away on the other side of the globe when the truth is on a good day from Gwadar you might even catch a glimpse of the Arabian penininsula - Oman.

Theefore where do we stand? Well we could go back to British days and do a repeat "British Raj" by joining India and calling some English to become Queens viceroy again. In absence of that and keeping the functional point in mind the only other solution is go with China. The fact that she is a emerging economic giant can only be a good thing.

This is exactly like what Turkey has done. Only she has gone for Europe/West. Just look at your trade/investment profile. Given the political realities on the ground - as shown in the map below CPEC is only way forward for Pakistan.


F7YKzAU.png
 
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Brother, I really appreciate your posts, Really do. I think Turkey is my favourite country in the world. In other forums I have seen Turks defending Pakistan [western forums] when nobody else will do. And I respect all Turks irrespective of the political spectrum but trust me on this you guy's don't understand Pakistan. I don't want to sound like blowing my trumpet but whereever I have gone in the West I openly tout my Pakistani lineage. And further I brook no servile mentality. I sincerely believe and this might sound arrogant that Indus region has been one the crucibles of civilization. We have produced some of the greatest civiizations known to mankind. And I say we. Not freakin Indians or anybody else. I am quite firm and clear in my identity. Never do I give a inch to westerners just because right now they are doing well. The thing is you have to be secure in your own identity and have respect in your peoples genius. So I harbour no inferiority complex but think we are where we are right now because of historical circumstance and policy mistakes. Once these are fixed we will be on top of the world again.

Therefore i take a very matter of fact functional approach without getting constipated about issues reveloving around misplaced pride etc. For me sovereignty means my people are well fed, prosperous, living in a developed country like I do. That is real sovereignty. Not flying green flags but seeing my people living in slums or begging on streets or drowning in boats as illegal migrants in the Mediteranean and people treating them like dogs. That really hurts me. It hurts my soul.

Look at you. You were not long ago one of the greatest empires on earth. When we had become slaves of English and I take no pleasure in saying that. It is fact. It is something we have to acknowledge, swallow, learn lessons from and move forward. You Turks had [Greeks/Bulgars etc] Europeans as your slaves but we had become slaves of [English] Europeans.

Yet observe this thing. Turkey had no issues with allowing massive NATO bases being constructed on your sacred soil. You allowed and allow right now thousands of NATO troops stationed on you sacred soil. You had your own clothing. Yet today you wear standard international clothing. I have yet to see Turkish President dressed like this.

bde4fac17022e45b12edd04d0992c1a9.jpg



We as people were slaves of Europeans and that has left us with a deep abiding sense of colonized complex. That is why words like "westoxified" etc have been coined. Showing convergence with what you might see in the West can be source of ridicule. Where am I going with this? Any functional idea like the one I proposed will all too often being looked at from the slave mentality left over from the colonial times which of course only ended in 1947.

As regards Turkey as I already said I am fond of it. And actually making linkages with Turkish economy would be easier for Pakistan. There is more cultural, racial, historical convergence between Turkey and Pakistan then with China. How come I never paddle in this direction but sing songs about China?

Well you might know I am regarded as having a tilt for Iran. In fact sometimes some nutters here start assuming I am shia when I come from a conservative Sunni family. The reason for the tilt toward Iran is actually by-product of my fondness for Turkey. Pakistan and Turkey are not that far apart and but have one country sat bang in the middle. Iran.

The fact is Pak-Turk strategic calculus is not going to go very far without Iran being stitched into the equation. This is a physical fact and no amount of contortionist thinking will overcome this reality. We had in the 1960s RCD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Cooperation_for_Development#cite_note-3

07ddb946faf674fabe65d607fe210d5c.jpg



jahojalal-RCD1976-Iran.png



Rcd.jpg



RCD never went very far in 1960s because all three countries were very underdeveloped. However had RCD remained in place today Turkey is regional econonmic power and that allied with Iranian economic respources leveraging the huge market of Pakistan would see the entire region buzz with econonomic activity.

The entire Pakistani auto, engineering products, construction market would have been dominated by Turkish companies. The entire power generation and oil market by Iranian companies. In return our agri-industry but be taking off. There would have been economic synergy by now with each countries economy complementing and creating economic multipliers. Turkey to Iran would be matter of catching regular trains, coaches or trucking networks. All three economie would get increasingly integrated and we would have sort of reincarnation of the order established by Alexander the Great over 2000 years ago. This time it would be economic. And this would have further been boosted by CPEC and trade with China.


KIeOJ5i.png

Instead because of the sectarian nutters, Saudi apologists and Iranian mullahs Iran instead of being a bridge between Anatolia and the Indus has become a huge barrier that cuts Turkey off from Pakistan. And there is no other way around.

46seEWF.png

Alexander's Empire

Alexander+the+Great%2527s+Journey.png



However let's be realistic about it. Between USA, Saudia Arabia, Mullahs Iran is going to remain "locked". So this possibility is off the list. Central Asia is blocked off by Afghanistan and things are not about to change anytime soon. GCC/KSA despite all the big talk will never accept Pakistan within their economic orbit. They have illusions toward MENA and Arab based unions. What they have done is bought out some of our elite with money and this just acts as a spolier preventing clear vision and stopping Pakistan from moving forward. This also feeds into ummah pipedream. When ask @Saif al-Arab if he would accept Pakistan as a economic patner in a wider GCC. But the feeling I get from there is the think that Pakistan is 10,000 miles away on the other side of the globe when the truth is on a good day from Gwadar you might even catch a glimpse of the Arabian penininsula - Oman.

Theefore where do we stand? Well we could go back to British days and do a repeat "British Raj" by joining India and calling some English to become Queens viceroy again. In absence of that and keeping the functional point in mind the only other solution is go with China. The fact that she is a emerging economic giant can only be a good thing.

This is exactly like what Turkey has done. Only she has gone for Europe/West. Just look at your trade/investment profile.

Let me get on my foot with my people... I may want to march on the Indus region...
Worry not anymore... If you people can't make it... I will gladly take it.

Best regards
A fellow conqueror ( When I finish brainwashing mine first...)

Ps: Good read.
 
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