Gulbuddin Hekmatyar: Will the Afghanistan warlord turn out to be Pakistan’s wild card against India?

[A-Team]

What is it with your fetish for "Mother country India" eveytime you talk about Pakistan?

Would it do any good as retort to call you to go your "Mother country Mongs"? You know those genetic spastics that are otherwise called Dowms Syndrome?

Mother Mong?

And as general education for all Pakistani's here. Afghanistan is a hotch potch multi racial country. Leaving asides the Iranic groups at least 33% of the country is made up of either Turkic people like Uzbek (whose name gives away that they belong to same people as the country across Amu Darya called Uzbekistan). Then you have Turkmen who belong to the country called Turkmenistan just across a artificial border drawn by Russian and British officials.

And then you have the creme la creme - the spastic looking Mongs living in central Hazarjat region of Afghanistan. You might as well rename it Mongistan. They look like Mongs, speak like Persians and are Shia. And these Spastics have galls of calling Pakistan in light of India - the very country that they like their a*ss creampied by.

I will open another thread to enlighten you gents - time the gloves came off. Time to re-educate these spastic Mongs. All I ask is you guys get acquainted with the facts so you can mount befitting riposte to the vitriol expanded by Mongs from across the Durand.

@A-Team I am sorry about this mate but I am not going allow this illiterate Mong to come here and spill garbage. I thought you might restrain him but clearly not.

I did quote him to change course but I was ignored.

I think its best to avoid these kinds of threads where insults are being thrown, no winners here.

@pakistani342 :

@waz please do the needful, the thread is full of hate, disrespect and being trolled.

 

[pakistani342]

I did quote him to change course but I was ignored.

I think its best to avoid these kinds of threads where insults are being thrown, no winners here.

@pakistani342 :

@waz please do the needful, the thread is full of hate, disrespect and being trolled.

@Kandahari

perhaps we started on the wrong foot -- we should encourage Afghan participation on this forum.

we can have our disagreements.

 

[Manidabest]

Are you going to blame Afghans for 'Tawaaif' culture of Indo-Pak?

well just watch kite runner and u will find a thin line diffference between tawaifi culture of indo-pak and dancing kids of aghanistan

 

[Shapur]

What is it with your fetish for "Mother country India" eveytime you talk about Pakistan?

Would it do any good as retort to call you to go your "Mother country Mongs"? You know those genetic spastics that are otherwise called Dowms Syndrome?

Mother Mong?

And as general education for all Pakistani's here. Afghanistan is a hotch potch multi racial country. Leaving asides the Iranic groups at least 33% of the country is made up of either Turkic people like Uzbek (whose name gives away that they belong to same people as the country across Amu Darya called Uzbekistan). Then you have Turkmen who belong to the country called Turkmenistan just across a artificial border drawn by Russian and British officials.

And then you have the creme la creme - the spastic looking Mongs living in central Hazarjat region of Afghanistan. You might as well rename it Mongistan. They look like Mongs, speak like Persians and are Shia. And these Spastics have galls of calling Pakistan in light of India - the very country that they like their a*ss creampied by.

I will open another thread to enlighten you gents - time the gloves came off. Time to re-educate these spastic Mongs. All I ask is you guys get acquainted with the facts so you can mount befitting riposte to the vitriol expanded by Mongs from across the Durand.

@A-Team I am sorry about this mate but I am not going allow this illiterate Mong to come here and spill garbage. I thought you might restrain him but clearly not.

33%? lol. Where did you get that figure from? Mongoloids (Hazaras, Turkmen, Uzbeks) combined make up about 20% of the whole population andn thats being generous because I am using western sources. I am not sure if you are familiar with the history of central Asia and their genetic make up. Even these 20% are highly mixed with ancient Iranian people of central Asia and they are not purely mongoloid. There are many uzbeks in the north who look same as pashtuns/Tajiks but are linguistically uzbeks due to uzbek rule in that area for a long time. I would say at best 10% of Afghanistan's population can be truly considered pure mongoloid. The central part of Afghanistan that Hazaras occupy is barren mountains and has low population density if you look at the population density maps of Afghanistan. All the major population centres are either Pashtun or Tajik and some uzbeks and hazaras thrown in.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

33%? lol. Where did you get that figure from? Mongoloids (Hazaras, Turkmen, Uzbeks) combined make up about 20% of the whole population andn thats being generous because I am using western sources. I am not sure if you are familiar with the history of central Asia and their genetic make up. Even these 20% are highly mixed with ancient Iranian people of central Asia and they are not purely mongoloid. There are many uzbeks in the north who look same as pashtuns/Tajiks but are linguistically uzbeks due to uzbek rule in that area for a long time. I would say at best 10% of Afghanistan's population can be truly considered pure mongoloid. The central part of Afghanistan that Hazaras occupy is barren mountains and has low population density if you look at the population density maps of Afghanistan. All the major population centres are either Pashtun or Tajik and some uzbeks and hazaras thrown in.

Well, you know that exact figures are hard to come by. But okay I give you that I gave a figure that was inflated for effect but that does not detract from the fact that Afghanistan is a multi-racial society with at least three strong elements. The Iranic, the Turkic, the Mongol. Further that there has been history of inter- ethnic conflict and suppression going back centuries.

The Mongol element is extremely conspicious and "exotic" in that it clearly shows the Mongolian features. Maybe the % are 8-10. But that is still significant and Afghanistan is far from a homogenous state but has deep fissures running along the fracture zones.

And if the Durand Line is artificial what is "natural" about the "Lumsden Line" or the line established by the British/Russian officials under the Afghan Boundary Commission without any Afghan input? I am sure you have heard of the Panjdeh incident. Large tract of land was lost to Russia which today is in hands of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.

Link > http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/boundaries-iii
Link > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panjdeh_incident

Link > http://thediplomat.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/thediplomat_2015-03-31_02-15-42.jpg

Map below. How the British/ Russian did the carving.

And if you want a civilzed discussion fine. However if your going to accuse us as being slave of Punjabi or "Indian" your going to get the "spastic Mong" reaction - 10% or 20% or other nuances notwithstanding. Crudeness only deserves crudeness. That is what @Kandahari spouted and got in return.

And at @Shapur I don't have time now but I think what we need to do is open another dedicated thread on the borders/history of Afghanistan. Then we can ask the mods to make it sticky. You of course are more then welcome to provide the Afghan viewpoint. This would allow both sides to produce detailed sourced links to make each sides case. Chucking filth, profanties or derogatory comments is not good for either.

 

[Shapur]

Well, you know that exact figures are hard to come by. But okay I give you that I gave a figure that was inflated for effect but that does not detract from the fact that Afghanistan is a multi-racial society with at least three strong elements. The Iranic, the Turkic, the Mongol. Further that there has been history of inter- ethnic conflict and suppression going back centuries.

The Mongol element is extremely conspicious and "exotic" in that it clearly shows the Mongolian features. Maybe the % are 8-10. But that is still significant and Afghanistan is far from a homogenous state but has deep fissures running along the fracture zones.

And if the Durand Line is artificial what is "natural" about the "Lumsden Line" or the line established by the British/Russian officials under the Afghan Boundary Commission without any Afghan input? I am sure you have heard of the Panjdeh incident. Large tract of land was lost to Russia which today is in hands of Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan.

You are right that Afghanistan is a multi racial country but so are all other countries. I don't think there are many countries which are purely based on pure race. We humans are too mixed for there to be a pure race really. I think the more appropriate thing to discuss would by culture, language, ethnic identity and so on.

The inter ethnic fighting in Afghanistan has been highly exagerated especially by Pakistani establishment so it can garner support among the Pashtuns for Taliban and to brainwash Pashtuns in Pakistan that Pashtuns in Afghanistan are victims of other ethnic groups and the Taliban will somehow save us from northern alliance boogeyman. It also serves the purpose of Pakistani establishment saying to Pashtuns in Pakistan, "Look, Afghanistan is a mess, where Pashtuns are not safe so you are much better off being part of Pakistan". Basically, Pakistani establishment wants to make Afghanistan a very ugly proposition for the pashtuns of Pakistan. A country marred by ethnic conflict, drugs, poverty etc. It exagerates the problems Pashtuns face in Afghanistan and down plays the ones pashtuns face in Pakistan. Afghan establishment does the same thing. Both our elites have used our people for their own ends.

I am Pashtun from the north myself and there are millions of Pashtuns living amongst uzbeks, tajiks etc without a problem. Sometimes conflicts are more about political affiliation rather than which ethnic groups you belong to. There are Tajiks and uzbeks Taliban and there are Pashtun members of Northern Alliance. Things are not black and white.

Again I agree that these boundries are all artificial and are a result of divide and rule policy of the colonialists. In an ideal world I don't want Tajiks of Tajikistan to be seperated from Tajiks of Afghanistan and same for Pashtuns of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Hopefully peace will prevail in our region and we can create a union like the european union where these boundries mean little. One of the reasons Durand Line is always mentioned is that Pashtuns are the power holders in Afghanistan and the Pashtun nationalists never accepted this line. The Turkmens, uzbeks have too little power to bring up "Lumsden Line" or other issues. Even Ahmad Shah Massoud and Rabbani who ruled between 1992 and 1996 did not accept Durand line. That's because the Pashtuns of Afghanistan consider Durand line a slap in their face and a punishment from the British for their defeats in the Anglo-Afghan wars and the constant resistance of Pashtuns to their rule. To the Pashtun nationalists in Afghanistan, if pashtuns of Pakistan join Afghanistan then we make up around 85%-90% of the population and it will ensure the survival of our language and culture. To Pashtuns in Afghanistan, it doesn't even make sense why Pashtuns of Pakistan wouldn't want to join a country named after their ethnic group (Afghan). It is a no brainer.

And if you want a civilzed discussion fine. However if your going to accuse us as being slave of Punjabi or "Indian" your going to get the "spastic Mong" reaction - 10% or 20% or other nuances notwithstanding. Crudeness only deserves crudeness. That is what @Kandahari spouted.

Ignore Kandahari, he is too emotional and lacks any historical perspective.

I will never call any Pashtun in Pakistan a salve of Punjabi because I know that is not true. I have been to Pakhtunkhwa and know first hand that Pashtuns in Pakistan live in their own province freely. Pashtuns are too independent to be considered slaves of anybody.

 

[DSM0305]

well just watch kite runner and u will find a thin line diffference between tawaifi culture of indo-pak and dancing kids of aghanistan

Referring to a propaganda movie as a source... well it shows the extend of your brain capacity

 

[Indus Pakistan]

I will never call

Progress. Your second guy from Afgh., who I can call mate. No problem my friend. That was very nice post - even though I might have some issues with it. I am sure we will have more discussions on this subject.

@A-Team

 

[Manidabest]

Referring to a propaganda movie as a source... well it shows the extend of your brain capacity

propaganda movie???? oh great then pls watch it urself 1st

 

[Shapur]

Progress. Your second guy from Afgh., who I can call mate. No problem my friend. That was very nice post - even though I might have some issues with it. I am sure we will have more discussions on this subject.

@A-Team

I am sure you will have your own take own things which is to be expected. This is why dialogue is necessary to address problems and remove misunderstandings. I am sure we will have more discussions as well mate.

 

[Mitro]

http://atimes.com/2016/09/hekmatyars-second-coming-is-a-us-pakistan-enterprise/

 

[DSM0305]

propaganda movie???? oh great then pls watch it urself 1st

lol, was this the response I receive... I hope the rest of the forum members here have a better capacity in the upper region to actually respond more intelligently.

 

[Manidabest]

lol, was this the response I receive... I hope the rest of the forum members here have a better capacity in the upper region to actually respond more intelligently.

 

[Kabira]

It also serves the purpose of Pakistani establishment saying to Pashtuns in Pakistan, "Look, Afghanistan is a mess, where Pashtuns are not safe so you are much better off being part of Pakistan". Basically, Pakistani establishment wants to make Afghanistan a very ugly proposition for the pashtuns of Pakistan. A country marred by ethnic conflict, drugs, poverty etc. It exagerates the problems Pashtuns face in Afghanistan and down plays the ones pashtuns face in Pakistan. Afghan establishment does the same thing. Both our elites have used our people for their own ends.

Looks like here by Pakistani establishment you basically mean some posters on forums like this or facebook. If you read Bhutto speech when Afghanistan used to actively interfere in Pakistan to start civil war from 1947 till late 70's. Then it will become clear establishment thinking is more on line with @Kaptaan then what you are saying. Pakistan didn't even let go Bangladesh without war which was thousands miles away with hardly anything in common if we ignore millions of supposed Bengali pathans. East Pakistan would still be part of Pakistan despite all this if there wasn't India in the middle or Pakistan had acquired nukes by then. Then after some time both sides could have agreed upon some compromise while still being in federation.

And as far as differences, even KPK is hardly ethnically homogeneous so imagine Pakistan overall.

 

[Shapur]

Looks like here by Pakistani establishment you basically mean some posters on forums like this or facebook. If you read Bhutto speech when Afghanistan used to actively interfere in Pakistan to start civil war from 1947 till late 70's. Then it will become clear establishment thinking is more on line with @Kaptaan then what you are saying. Pakistan didn't even let go Bangladesh without war which was thousands miles away with hardly anything in common if we ignore millions of supposed Bengali pathans. East Pakistan would still be part of Pakistan despite all this if there wasn't India in the middle or Pakistan had acquired nukes by then. Then after some time both sides could have agreed upon some compromise while still being in federation.

And as far as differences, even KPK is hardly ethnically homogeneous so imagine Pakistan overall.

No I mean your country's elites who steal the money meant for the poor people of Pakistan, These are the same people Imran Khan talks about. That's who I mean.

Now this is not my personal opinion but I am just going to explain how some Afghans especially Pashtuns of Afghanistan feel. Afghans believe Pashtuns should never have been part of Pakistan because Pashtuns already have a country named after them (Afghanistan). Why should Pashtuns be split into two countries they way Kurds are split into 4? It has a negative effect on Pashtuns because instead of focusing on our language, culture and identity, we have to learn an alien language called Urdu brought over from Delhi instead of our own. Instead of learning our own history, we have to learn about "Nazria e Pakistan" etc. Pashtuns are not like the rest of Pakistanis who didn't have a country that they feel they can belong to. The muslims of sub continent needed Pakistan because they didn't fit in with a hindu majority India. That's not the case with Pashtuns who already had a muslim majority country with Pashto as its official language. To add to that, Pashtuns are not Indic and not part of the sub continent so by default they didn't belong in this confideration of desi muslims.

Another point these people raise is that there was no fair referendum in Pashtun areas of Pakistan because they were given only two choice
1: Pakistan
2: India
Afghanistan was not given as a choice and most Pashtuns did not take part in this referendum. According to Afghan, this was done deliberately. Now faced with these two options, of course Pashtuns chose Pakistan because of logical reasons, Pakistan was to be a muslim nation plus if they chose India there would have been Punjab, sindh etc between them physically so not practical.

There are many other reasons besides these but thats just a summary. So Afghanistan felt it was necessary to take Pashtun areas by all means possible as Pakistan who was backed by Britain would never give up these territories through dialogue. The extent of this interference is exaggerated by Pakistan sometimes for its own propaganda purposes and I am sure some members who are more knowledgeable than me can explain it better.

Now I know most Pashtuns of Pakistan have become proud Pakistanis over time and given the state of Afghanistan, they wouldn't ever want to merge their areas with Afghanistan. This is not 60s and 70s, things have changed and Afghanistan's government needs to change its attitude and accept the fact the most Pashtuns in Pakistan are now full fledged Pakistanis and their old tactics will not work anymore.