What's new

Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

Status
Not open for further replies.
I don't see what the discussion is all about. If you think that this cultural centre two blocs away from Ground Zero open to all faiths and the result fo the effortofthe moderate mainstream muslims to kick away the fanatics and extremists who have hijacked their religion is something that proves that Islam is a violent religion, then I guess you may also agree like the Tea party head said that Islam is not a religion because muslims worship a monkey god.

As a jewish friend of mine said, muslims today are like the jews 100 years ago. All sorts or irrational stories are built on the scary "muslim conquest" and dehumanisation of muslims is seen as logical.

Forget that millions of people were killed in WWI and WWII including six milion Jews, forget that Communists in China and USSR more than a hundered million people among them. thebiogots like tea party head who shouts that muslims worship a monkey God believe that that is nothing compared to what muslims can do.

Forgeting that muslims are hardly a monolith. Ignoring the fact that muslims are 9 times more likely to die from a muslims who happens to be a terrorist than a non-muslim. Why not acknowledge the fact the thousands of anti-terrorism conferences held and the millions of muslims who participated in them from the US to India on rejecting these violent fringe fanatics. Oh waht you haven't heard about them? Did you even try to find out wether mainstream muslims have rejected theologically such extremists?

Where has sanity gone? Like I said before an American is more likely to die from a car accident than a terrorist attack. Atleast the American leadership and the majority of the American people are sane enough to understand the disconnect between Islam and terrorists. More power to them. Less to ignorant people who say muslims worship a monkey god.

(PS I was'nt joking of the monkey god comment, see how some people justify hatred of muslims
Tea Party Leader: "Allah is a Monkey God, Muslims are His Animals" | loonwatch.com)
 
.
I don't see what the discussion is all about. If you think that this cultural centre two blocs away from Ground Zero open to all faiths and the result fo the effortofthe moderate mainstream muslims to kick away the fanatics and extremists who have hijacked their religion is something that proves that Islam is a violent religion, then I guess you may also agree like the Tea party head said that Islam is not a religion because muslims worship a monkey god.

The Americans surely think that!! How are you as a member going to prove otherwise,,,,, and there lies the problem to the equation.. Give one example of a Moderate Muslim country fighting with NATO or US to Defeat the Extremist. Not one, Not even Turkey, Which I might add is one of the best military in the islam world....
 
.
I don't see what the discussion is all about. If you think that this cultural centre two blocs away from Ground Zero open to all faiths and the result fo the effortofthe moderate mainstream muslims to kick away the fanatics and extremists who have hijacked their religion is something that proves that Islam is a violent religion, then I guess you may also agree like the Tea party head said that Islam is not a religion because muslims worship a monkey god.

As a jewish friend of mine said, muslims today are like the jews 100 years ago. All sorts or irrational stories are built on the scary "muslim conquest" and dehumanisation of muslims is seen as logical.

Forget that millions of people were killed in WWI and WWII including six milion Jews, forget that Communists in China and USSR more than a hundered million people among them. thebiogots like tea party head who shouts that muslims worship a monkey God believe that that is nothing compared to what muslims can do.

Forgeting that muslims are hardly a monolith. Ignoring the fact that muslims are 9 times more likely to die from a muslims who happens to be a terrorist than a non-muslim. Why not acknowledge the fact the thousands of anti-terrorism conferences held and the millions of muslims who participated in them from the US to India on rejecting these violent fringe fanatics. Oh waht you haven't heard about them? Did you even try to find out wether mainstream muslims have rejected theologically such extremists?

Where has sanity gone? Like I said before an American is more likely to die from a car accident than a terrorist attack. Atleast the American leadership and the majority of the American people are sane enough to understand the disconnect between Islam and terrorists. More power to them. Less to ignorant people who say muslims worship a monkey god.

(PS I was'nt joking of the monkey god comment, see how some people justify hatred of muslims
Tea Party Leader: "Allah is a Monkey God, Muslims are His Animals" | loonwatch.com)

worth reading . . .world should change its view
 
.
The Americans surely think that!! How are you as a member going to prove otherwise,,,,, and there lies the problem to the equation.. Give one example of a Moderate Muslim country fighting with NATO or US to Defeat the Extremist. Not one, Not even Turkey, Which I might add is one of the best military in the islam world....

FYI Jeypore, Turkey has more troops in Afghanistan than most of the other NATO countries. Not to forget the enormous help Saudi Arabia Jordan Egypt and including Pakistan have done to help the US. If you are talking about IRaq, it was a war against terrorism, it was a war of ego and greed and many Americans themselves agree on that including the current president Barack Obama. So why should ANY country let alone muslim countries support the US in its war in Iraq? Real friends dont follow blindly but tell them the truth that they may not want to hear at times.

You seem to be ignorant of many facts. And also as local community board meetings of elected reps of NYC suggest, they all supported the cultural centre. Including local Jews, Christians and other faith groups.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/65931-turkish-soldiers-afghanistan.html
 
.
Ejaj, I really like your posts. People like you can act as a bridge across the religious hatreds in our world.

You present the other side of the picture really well and with facts. Much more effective than the bluster or hypocrisy that one normally sees when people eternally criticize and make increasing demands on the secular democratic world while keeping a blind eye to the reality within the Islamic world.

I hope your tribe increases and we have a religious hatred free world in our lifetime. This hatred is man made, not created by the divine.
 
.
FYI Jeypore, Turkey has more troops in Afghanistan than most of the other NATO countries. Not to forget the enormous help Saudi Arabia Jordan Egypt and including Pakistan have done to help the US. If you are talking about IRaq, it was a war against terrorism, it was a war of ego and greed and many Americans themselves agree on that including the current president Barack Obama. So why should ANY country let alone muslim countries support the US in its war in Iraq? Real friends dont follow blindly but tell them the truth that they may not want to hear at times.

You seem to be ignorant of many facts. And also as local community board meetings of elected reps of NYC suggest, they all supported the cultural centre. Including local Jews, Christians and other faith groups.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/65931-turkish-soldiers-afghanistan.html

You have questioned me of other factors by your first paragraph, Turkey is the only Muslim country(1.431% contribution) that has contributed in the fight against Terrorsim!!! as you can clearly see 1% to me does not hold any water, to me atleast!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Security_Assistance_Force


You seem to be ignorant of many facts. And also as local community board meetings of elected reps of NYC suggest, they all supported the cultural centre. Including local Jews, Christians and other faith groups.

Maybe I am one of those most ignorant, but local of NYC do not speak for all of America!!!!!
 
Last edited:
.
If you are talking about IRaq, it was a war against terrorism, it was a war of ego and greed and many Americans themselves agree on that including the current president Barack Obama. So why should ANY country let alone muslim countries support the US in its war in Iraq? Real friends dont follow blindly but tell them the truth that they may not want to hear at times.

Can you please explain the bolded sentense in detail, since I am the ignorant one!!! And Please prove with links because I can!!!!
 
.
Criminal cases are part of the public record. You would know that if you were informed at any level. PACER is a publicly accessible US government court record service. Moreover, there are dozens of legal journals. Do share with all the members not any notable case but a plethora of case, since we are being told to assume that there was, and continues to be massive discrimination against Muslims and some-sort of witch-hunts as well. Publications in journals on this issue would certainly be enlightening. I hope you'll apprise us of the reality of the issue at hand.

PS :This does not mean that I find Solomon2's arguments to be fallacious at some levels and that I'm not listening to arguments of social discrimination.

Sparklingway I am very informed, even though I work in the confines of the real estate stream within law I have a birds eye view of other matters broiling in other departments of the profession. Not all of these cases were criminal, and many of them have not reached their culmination. As well as the fact that out of court settlements are reached in the majority of the cases. I know about these cases because as a Pakistani many come to me seeking advice and I politely send them to my friend across town who deals with such matters. I do not practice in the US so I have no use for PACER. As I said earlier to solomon2 I just can't get into specifics and would rather his rebuttal stand. Even if I showed a mountain of evidence people like him won't change and I do not want to be the messiah of change, it's a dangerous business. If you believe there has never been a witch hunt or discrimination against Muslims , then I can perhaps PM you something later on to change your mind as what has happened/is happening is very obvious for an informed person. The timing and frequency of these cases can be further analyzed to explain this phenomena, but I just do not want to start bringing skeletons out of other people's closets here, it is just my personal opinion.
 
Last edited:
.
As well as the fact that out of court settlements are reached in the majority of the cases.


This was what I was referring to in my post when I suggested that those who have sought legal deress avoid organizations that seem to have made a career of not allowing these cases to go further, in particular, the Saudi CAIR.
 
.
This was what I was referring to in my post when I suggested that those who have sought legal deress avoid organizations that seem to have made a career of not allowing these cases to go further, in particular, the Saudi CAIR.

And literally all the human rights commissions you can think of.
 
. .
I do not want to be the messiah of change, it's a dangerous business.
Are you speaking of the U.S. or of Pakistan? By your description of plea bargains and the like in discrimination cases, you describe a society where, if not perfect behavior, at least justice can be successfully sought. My people, the Jews, know that such cannot be found in Pakistan - that is why almost every one of them had to leave the country since independence.

Don't you think it's your "business" to help turn Pakistan into a place where advocacy isn't quite so dangerous? Whether it is standing up for a poor and politically weak landowner or a would-be social reformer?
 
Last edited:
.
Lets stick to ensuring advocacy in the US remains a venue for Muslims to seek redress.
 
.
To me riots are one thing terrorist attacks are another.
The distinction is only one of method, the root of both however is to use violence to further political objectives, and to spill the blood of the 'other' if necessary.
 
.
Across Nation, Mosque Projects Meet Opposition​

By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

While a high-profile battle rages over a mosque near ground zero in Manhattan, heated confrontations have also broken out in communities across the country where mosques are proposed for far less hallowed locations.

In Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.

In late June, in Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.

In Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.

At one time, neighbors who did not want mosques in their backyards said their concerns were over traffic, parking and noise — the same reasons they might object to a church or a synagogue. But now the gloves are off.

In all of the recent conflicts, opponents have said their problem is Islam itself. They quote passages from the Koran and argue that even the most Americanized Muslim secretly wants to replace the Constitution with Islamic Shariah law.

These local skirmishes make clear that there is now widespread debate about whether the best way to uphold America’s democratic values is to allow Muslims the same religious freedom enjoyed by other Americans, or to pull away the welcome mat from a faith seen as a singular threat.

“What’s different is the heat, the volume, the level of hostility,” said Ihsan Bagby, associate professor of Islamic studies at the University of Kentucky. “It’s one thing to oppose a mosque because traffic might increase, but it’s different when you say these mosques are going to be nurturing terrorist bombers, that Islam is invading, that civilization is being undermined by Muslims.”

Feeding the resistance is a growing cottage industry of authors and bloggers — some of them former Muslims — who are invited to speak at rallies, sell their books and testify in churches. Their message is that Islam is inherently violent and incompatible with America.

But they have not gone unanswered. In each community, interfaith groups led by Protestant ministers, Catholic priests, rabbis and clergy members of other faiths have defended the mosques. Often, they have been slower to organize than the mosque opponents, but their numbers have usually been larger.

The mosque proposed for the site near ground zero in Lower Manhattan cleared a final hurdle last week before the city’s Landmarks Preservation Commission, and Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg hailed the decision with a forceful speech on religious liberty. While an array of religious groups supported the project, opponents included the Anti-Defamation League, an influential Jewish group, and prominent Republicans like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich, the former House speaker.

A smaller controversy is occurring in Temecula, about 60 miles north of San Diego, involving a typical stew of religion, politics and anti-immigrant sentiment. A Muslim community has been there for about 12 years and expanded to 150 families who have outgrown their makeshift worship space in a warehouse, said Mahmoud Harmoush, the imam, a lecturer at California State University, San Bernardino. The group wants to build a 25,000-square-foot center, with space for classrooms and a playground, on a lot it bought in 2000.

Mr. Harmoush said the Muslim families had contributed to the local food bank, sent truckloads of supplies to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, and participated in music nights and Thanksgiving events with the local interfaith council.

“We do all these activities and nobody notices,” he said. “Now that we have to build our center, everybody jumps to make it an issue.”

Recently, a small group of activists became alarmed about the mosque. Diana Serafin, a grandmother who lost her job in tech support this year, said she reached out to others she knew from attending Tea Party events and anti-immigration rallies. She said they read books by critics of Islam, including former Muslims like Walid Shoebat, Wafa Sultan and Manoucher Bakh. She also attended a meeting of the local chapter of ACT! for America, a Florida-based group that says its purpose is to defend Western civilization against Islam.

“As a mother and a grandmother, I worry,” Ms. Serafin said. “I learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam, and their goal is to get people in Congress and the Supreme Court to see that Shariah is implemented. My children and grandchildren will have to live under that.”

“I do believe everybody has a right to freedom of religion,” she said. “But Islam is not about a religion. It’s a political government, and it’s 100 percent against our Constitution.”

Ms. Serafin was among an estimated 20 to 30 people who turned out to protest the mosque, including some who intentionally took dogs to offend those Muslims who consider dogs to be ritually unclean. But they were outnumbered by at least 75 supporters. The City of Temecula recently postponed a hearing on whether to grant the mosque a permit.

Larry Slusser, a Mormon and the secretary of the Interfaith Council of Murietta and Temecula, went to the protest to support the Muslim group. “I know them,” he said. “They’re good people. They have no ill intent. They’re good Americans. They are leaders in their professions.”

Of the protesters, he said, “they have fear because they don’t know them.”

Religious freedom is also at stake, Mr. Slusser said, adding, “They’re Americans, they deserve to have a place to worship just like everybody else.”

There are about 1,900 mosques in the United States, which run the gamut from makeshift prayer rooms in storefronts and houses to large buildings with adjoining community centers, according to a preliminary survey by Mr. Bagby, who conducted a mosque study 10 years ago and is now undertaking another.

A two-year study by a group of academics on American Muslims and terrorism concluded that contemporary mosques are actually a deterrent to the spread of militant Islam and terrorism. The study was conducted by professors with Duke’s Sanford School of Public Policy and the University of North Carolina. It disclosed that many mosque leaders had put significant effort into countering extremism by building youth programs, sponsoring antiviolence forums and scrutinizing teachers and texts.

Radicalization of alienated Muslim youths is a real threat, Mr. Bagby said. “But the youth we worry about,” he said, “are not the youth that come to the mosque.”

In central Tennessee, the mosque in Murfreesboro is the third one in the last year to encounter resistance. It became a political issue when Republican candidates for governor and Congress declared their opposition. (They were defeated in primary elections on Thursday.)

A group called Former Muslims United put up a billboard saying “Stop the Murfreesboro Mosque.” The group’s president is Nonie Darwish, also the founder of Arabs for Israel, who spoke against Islam in Murfreesboro at a fund-raising dinner for Christians United for Israel, an evangelical organization led by the Rev. John Hagee.

“A mosque is not just a place for worship,” Ms. Darwish said in an interview. “It’s a place where war is started, where commandments to do jihad start, where incitements against non-Muslims occur. It’s a place where ammunition was stored.”

Camie Ayash, a spokeswoman for the Islamic Center of Murfreesboro, lamented that people were listening to what she called “total disinformation” on Islam.

She said her group was stunned when what began as one person raising zoning questions about the new mosque evolved into mass protests with marchers waving signs about Shariah.

“A lot of Muslims came to the U.S. because they respect the Constitution,” she said. “There’s no conflict with the U.S. Constitution in Shariah law. If there were, Muslims wouldn’t be living here.”

In Wisconsin, the conflict over the mosque was settled when the Town Executive Council voted unanimously to give the Islamic Society of Sheboygan a permit to use the former health food store as a prayer space.

Dr. Mansoor Mirza, the physician who owns the property, said he was trying to take the long view of the controversy.

“Every new group coming to this country — Jews, Catholics, Irish, Germans, Japanese — has gone through this,” Dr. Mirza said. “Now I think it’s our turn to pay the price, and eventually we will be coming out of this, too.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?partner=rss&emc=rss


============

Quite clearly this is opposition to 'mosques' is not isolated to 'Ground Zero' and quite clearly this opposition has little to do with 'taste, hallowed ground, respect' and all the rest of the poppycock being spouted by bigots to provide cover for their prejudice.
 
.
Status
Not open for further replies.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom