Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

These were communal riots due to specific circumstances and with a long history behind them. The Babri one is specifically related to the bigotry of atrocities by Muslim invaders that has yet not been corrected. Just one of the more than 10000 temples destroyed by those bigots.

The official count of Gujarat riots is 784 Muslims and 280 odd Hindus.

There are no Hindus going around planting bombs in marketplaces or worship places, surely not on the same scale.

Christian community is living most peacefully in India. There are chief ministers on this community in states where there are less than 3% Christians. They are at the front lines of education in India. Those events were isolated and due to specific local conditions.

Any comparisons are superfluous at this stage.

Leaving aside the manipulation of the numbers of those killed, comparisons are completely valid, since they illustrate the ability of people from the Hindu faith to embark on a killing spree of those of other faiths, on multiple occasions, indicating therefore that violence is not something inherent to Islam alone.

To justify massacres by Hindus of another community in the modern age by pointing to the disputed existence of some temple back in history, or the actions of 'invaders' hundreds of years ago, is morally reprehensible, and coming from a Hindu proves my point about violence and twisted justification for violence not being a solely Muslim phenomenon.

Yes. So accept that there is widespread manipulation going on in the Islamic world at the moment and take steps to correct it. If the world's perception is wrong, it will be automatically corrected if the ground situation changes by the efforts of moderate Muslims like you and millions of others.

Till then, no amount of debate on forums or media will "correct" that perception.

I am not responsible for the 'worlds Muslims'. People can treat me on the basis of MY beliefs and MY actions, not those of people living in a cave half a world away. And if people are not xenophobic and bigots, I have to do nothing more than the average non-Muslim American to illustrate what my ideological beliefs are, nor should I have too.

The problem arises when people judge an entire group of people, and individuals from that group, not from what the majority of individuals of that community (in this case Muslim Americans) are doing as a whole, or by what the individual Muslim they come in contact with is doing, but by what a handful of individuals who claim to share the same faith do.

 

[karan.1970]

Indians are always trying to juggle that online, I've been noticing since the mid 90s. I can only imagine the balancing act and charade going on in local and state government.

 

[Vinod2070]

Leaving aside the manipulation of the numbers of those killed, comparisons are completely valid, since they illustrate the ability of people from the Hindu faith to embark on a killing spree of those of other faiths, on multiple occasions, indicating therefore that violence is not something inherent to Islam alone.

You are talking of 1-2 events. One is 18-19 years old, the other 8-9 years old. They were completely isolated events.

I guess even you can see that any comparisons with almost daily atrocities by terrorists who use religion to justify their atrocity and kill others in the name of religion is simply not tenable. There were more than 10,000 terror attacks in 2009 alone (and it has been happening for years and years, just Pakistan has lost thousands in the name of the same Islam!). You would have surely seen how all their victims are "Wajib-Ul-Qatl" for them and how they believe that these atrocities will fetch them heaven and associated goodies. Do you see others doing it for the same reasons and at the same scale.

One has to surely see the reasons and the scale when looking at these issues.

To justify massacres by Hindus of another community in the modern age by pointing to the disputed existence of some temple back in history, or the actions of 'invaders' hundreds of years ago, is morally reprehensible, and coming from a Hindu proves my point about violence and twisted justification for violence not being a solely Muslim phenomenon.

I didn't justify the violence due to those actions. Though the people who perpetrated those atrocities on the majority of Pakistani's forefathers still remain your national heroes as can be seen in the names of your missiles.

That proves some other point for me!

I am not responsible for the 'worlds Muslims'. People can treat me on the basis of MY beliefs and MY actions, not those of people living in a cave half a world away. And if people are not xenophobic and bigots, I have to do nothing more than the average non-Muslim American to illustrate what my ideological beliefs are, nor should I have too.

OK. You are not. I was replying to your particular post and at no point you were personally the subject.

The problem arises when people judge an entire group of people, and individuals from that group, not from what the majority of individuals of that community (in this case Muslim Americans) are doing as a whole, or by what the individual Muslim they come in contact with is doing, but by what a handful of individuals who claim to share the same faith do.

And yet, the media in most Islamic countries do that every day. Your textbooks do that openly.

At that time I have seen you "prove" with some surveys that Pakistanis are not effected by that bigotry that goes on in your textbooks which call names to the religion of the vast majority of Pakistani's forefathers as well as other kaffirs.

I think before pointing fingers at others, we need to put our own house in order as well.

Why demand perfection from others when the "final and perfect" system can't keep it's own house in order?

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

2000 people were killed in the riots in 1992 after the babri Mosque razing by Hindu extremists, and another 2000 in the Gujrat riots in 2002 by Hindu extremists, in addition to several other smaller scale acts of violence against minority religious communities (such as the attacks on Christians and Churches) by Hindu extremists, so what is your point?

The fact that people from any religion can be motivated towards wanton violence is evidence enough that it is not a particular religion that is the issue, but the people willing to manipulate it to commit violence to achieve political goals.

To me riots are one thing terrorist attacks are another.

 

[gambit]

Yep, and a mosque is not a shrine to Taliban war dead either..
.

Again, not a shrine....Or anything similar.

Who said it has to be a 'shrine' to soldiers? Japanese or Hawaiian Japanese-Americans could propose to build a 'museum' filled with Imperial Japanese Navy hardware relics within sight of the Arizona Memorial and it could still be construed as to be offensive.

And US Muslims have failed to prove their loyalty? Two nut jobs get to represent the 2.5 Islamic people in the US? Have you never met a upstanding Muslim in uniform who did their job without question? What about this one?
\

Or how about the dozens of other Muslims buried there?

I met plenty of muslims in uniform. MEastern militaries, that is, and I even trained some of them. The loyalty of US muslims soldiers are not in question here. The point that you and others completely missed with the Arizona Memorial analogy is that it is about sensitivity on BOTH sides.

Nope, they adopted it willingly, much like the 2.5 million US citizens who practice.... That was my point, what is yours?

My point is that your baseball example is pointless. After WW II, we imposed political changes to Japan to make that country a more democratic one. We did not imposed or petition to build monuments or artifacts that attract attention to US in Japan. On the other hand, if this mosque was INVITED by the US government with NYC's acceptance then objections by anyone must be redirected away from the muslims and towards the both governments. Just like how the Japanese willingly, or 'invited', baseball, an American cultural artifact into their own post WW II culture.

I will admit the time scales are completely different, perhaps another reason why the analogy is inappropriate? As are the scales, more Marines died in a single week on Iwo Jima than all US military losses in the "War on Terror" . If you include 9/11, okay, we can include the rest of the battle and Peleliu as well....

The analogy is very appropriate and remains so. Decades have passed between the two countries. Both benefited off each other in economics, military, politics and culture. And yet the Arizona Memorial remains a symbol of hands-off respect for Japanese and Hawaiian Japanese-Americans. For NYC, barely 10yrs passed and for many New Yorkers the memory of their dead are still strong in their psyches.

Anyway, this is all secondary to the point, which is that your concept of decency aside, US law makes it very clear that anyone can put a mosque wherever they please, barring safety concerns and pre-existing zoning prohibitions.

I am not even Muslim if it matters (and it should not) I am agnostic, of lapsed protestant persuasion. But when people question others rights to worship freely, I get upset.

And that is why I said earlier that Americans will respect the rule of law even if the muslims supporters of this mosque chose not to respect the understanding of sensitivity. And who questions the muslims' right to worship freely? This is just another example out of many exaggerations of persecution of muslims in America. There are other sites equally suitable for worship in NYC. But why chose this one so close to Ground Zero? This is not an issue created by Fox News or Zionists as much as people here would like to believe. This question was asked by ordinary New Yorkers. To respond to this question, effectively responding to them, by resorting to legalism smacks of evasion.

I don't know if you ever swore an oath to defend and protect the US constitution, but I think the constitution covers the ability to worship freely somewhere in there... (*Sarcasm*)

Naahhh...When I joined the USAF back in 1983, I swore no oath. I just waltzed straight into a base and started jumping all over the planes. Did not even go to Basic Training. (*Sarcasm*)

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

In a democracy the protection of the minoritys rights are just as important as the protection of the majoritys rights, no matter how repulsive. Democracy in action.

 

[Solomon2]

Oh c'mon man, tell me what're you getting at?

Just asking you to detail how, exactly, you feel you were victimized by the terrorists of 9-11. You said they made you feel angry, not ashamed. What were you angry at or about, and how did that make you a victim?

 

[Shattered]

I don't get it how long are the amrecians gonna hold a grudge against a whole relegion cause of something that happened 9 years ago and the people who did it was extremists.

Really people need to grow up :/

 

[Solomon2]

Many Muslims were illegally deported after 9/11. The Imam of many mosques in US were illegally detained by FBI and many of them deported.

Are these just stories plucked out of thin air, or do you have references? I've had quite enough of people inventing allegations here, so you'll understand that I want some sort of evidence that what you write is worthy of respect.

What would you know about being one of the few Muslims in your American high school or college and taking a verbal beating or even physical one by your peers every day.

I'm a Jew and and had to put up with this once or twice when growing up. Reporting this to the school authorities got the perps in big, BIG trouble.

How would you like to see your religion twisted by both terrorists and the establishment and media on a second by second basis.

From my point of view, many Muslims do that every day when denouncing Jews and Judaism. Other Muslims then act out that hatred, sometimes even at the costs of their lives. Then we get 9-11 and Mumbai. (Al-Qaeda claims to have chosen NYC and the WTC to kill lots of Jews, and Kasab claimed that the Chabad House was the primary target.)

We have nothing equivalent to that sort of thing in America. I see Islam treated with the same respect as every other religion, and Muslims treated very politely - perhaps a bit more so than others, out of courtesy for the unfamiliar.

Do you even know about all the Pakistanis targeted and killed in the US by racists? So many guys killed working in gas stations for instance.

You have a particular instance in mind?

This question is like asking Jews how are they victims of the Holocaust.

Do you even know what the Holocaust was, that you make such a facetious comparison?

Anyways next time anyone feels like firing rounds into Mosques, there will be a retaliatory salvo.

You are so confident of this. Do you want to offer details?

 

[True_Pakistan_Zindabad]

I can offer both proof and details that will completely blow your argument away. I work in the legal field and I have access to hundreds of documents. But I do not share such things in public forums so your rebuttal will have to stand.

 

[whocares]

Leaving aside the manipulation of the numbers of those killed, comparisons are completely valid, since they illustrate the ability of people from the Hindu faith to embark on a killing spree of those of other faiths, on multiple occasions, indicating therefore that violence is not something inherent to Islam alone.

To justify massacres by Hindus of another community in the modern age by pointing to the disputed existence of some temple back in history, or the actions of 'invaders' hundreds of years ago, is morally reprehensible, and coming from a Hindu proves my point about violence and twisted justification for violence not being a solely Muslim phenomenon.

in the family of memeplexes called religions, islam is not alone but the most effective in inciting violence. i don't want to go further or i might get banned

 

[True_Pakistan_Zindabad]

in the family of memeplexes called religions, islam is not alone but the most effective in inciting violence. i don't want to go further or i might get banned

How can it be the most effective, there must be a scientific and mathematical explanation. If there isn't and you are plucking figures out of thin air, then you are trolling and like predicted, will get banned.

 

[jeypore]

I don't get it how long are the amrecians gonna hold a grudge against a whole relegion cause of something that happened 9 years ago and the people who did it was extremists.
Really people need to grow up :/

Until you do not kill or control your own Extremist...

 

[jeypore]

Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM
Leaving aside the manipulation of the numbers of those killed, comparisons are completely valid, since they illustrate the ability of people from the Hindu faith to embark on a killing spree of those of other faiths, on multiple occasions, indicating therefore that violence is not something inherent to Islam alone.

To justify massacres by Hindus of another community in the modern age by pointing to the disputed existence of some temple back in history, or the actions of 'invaders' hundreds of years ago, is morally reprehensible, and coming from a Hindu proves my point about violence and twisted justification for violence not being a solely Muslim phenomenon.

I think AGNO you need to cool down!!! I think with this, enragged, bolded sentance, you need to prove which was worse and also which effected globaly?????
You can not because you are really stuck on Indian hatred as well as Kashmir domination!!!!

 

[sparklingway]

I can offer both proof and details that will completely blow your argument away. I work in the legal field and I have access to hundreds of documents. But I do not share such things in public forums so your rebuttal will have to stand.

Criminal cases are part of the public record. You would know that if you were informed at any level. PACER is a publicly accessible US government court record service. Moreover, there are dozens of legal journals. Do share with all the members not any notable case but a plethora of case, since we are being told to assume that there was, and continues to be massive discrimination against Muslims and some-sort of witch-hunts as well. Publications in journals on this issue would certainly be enlightening. I hope you'll apprise us of the reality of the issue at hand.

PS :This does not mean that I find Solomon2's arguments to be fallacious at some levels and that I'm not listening to arguments of social discrimination.