Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

[True_Pakistan_Zindabad]

How do you feel victimized?

Many Muslims were illegally deported after 9/11. The Imam of many mosques in US were illegally detained by FBI and many of them deported. Mosques became targets of surveillance and society's stress release. How many times my friends told me that someone fired into their mosque or threw pig carcasses on the property and death threats. What would you know about being one of the few Muslims in your American high school or college and taking a verbal beating or even physical one by your peers every day. How would you like to see your religion twisted by both terrorists and the establishment and media on a second by second basis. Do you even know about all the Pakistanis targeted and killed in the US by racists? So many guys killed working in gas stations for instance. Even Sikhs were killed because they resemble Muslims.

This question is like asking Jews how are they victims of the Holocaust. Anyways next time anyone feels like firing rounds into Mosques, there will be a retaliatory salvo.

 

[True_Pakistan_Zindabad]

That's only regarding US Muslim victims of 9/11. I don't think you want to ask Iraqis or Afghans the same question.

Fact of the matter is : Muslims everywhere, just by association of name and place of birth are victims of 9/11 more than anyone. They too died in the attacks and are dying now to appease your blood thirsty populace.

 

[Tang0]

So have I. Japanese tourists are not shrines.

Yep, and a mosque is not a shrine to Taliban war dead either..
.

I grew up in Hawaii. Took flying lessons in high school and often flew over the Arizona Memorial. Those community centers are either not Japan centric or anything involving Japan are only for historical references as Hawaii is the middle between Japan and mainland America. No one from Japan or any Hawaiian Japanese-American will lobby to build a shrine honoring Japanese WW II war dead or anything similar in intention near the Arizona Memorial. Neither the US nor State of Hawaii government forces the locals to any wishes. This is an understanding based upon sensitivity, basic decency and respect, even though Japanese-Americans more than proved their loyalty in WW II.

Again, not a shrine....Or anything similar.
And US Muslims have failed to prove their loyalty? Two nut jobs get to represent the 2.5 Islamic people in the US? Have you never met a upstanding Muslim in uniform who did their job without question? What about this one?
\

Or how about the dozens of other Muslims buried there?

So was baseball imposed upon the Japanese?

Nope, they adopted it willingly, much like the 2.5 million US citizens who practice.... That was my point, what is yours?

And I am going to give you an 'F' for your argument. How long did it took for both nations to 'get over' WW II? Grudge against Islam? More hyperboles? How long did this 'grudge' last? Since 2001? Since 1945, there has been nothing from Japan on US and Japan became a stable US ally in many ways. Since 2001, how many incidences involving muslims in the US that ended in tragedies? Sgt. Hasan Akbar and Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan.

I will admit the time scales are completely different, perhaps another reason why the analogy is inappropriate? As are the scales, more Marines died in a single week on Iwo Jima than all US military losses in the "War on Terror" . If you include 9/11, okay, we can include the rest of the battle and Peleliu as well....

Anyway, this is all secondary to the point, which is that your concept of decency aside, US law makes it very clear that anyone can put a mosque wherever they please, barring safety concerns and pre-existing zoning prohibitions.

I am not even Muslim if it matters (and it should not) I am agnostic, of lapsed protestant persuasion. But when people question others rights to worship freely, I get upset. I don't know if you ever swore an oath to defend and protect the US constitution, but I think the constitution covers the ability to worship freely somewhere in there... (*Sarcasm*)

 

[Tang0]

Tang0


You may not know this or realize the seriousness of it just yet - but I have spoken to very many US Muslims, they FEEL discriminated against, particularly by the US government and it's security apparatus - and I recall you are US government security apparatchik of some sort, it might help you to realize that these individuals I referred to above are US Citizens - supposedly as tax payers, law abiding and voting citizens, there is something wrong, I hope you will agree, when such people begin to fear their own government -- but then, it might dawn on them, that their citizenship is a kind of a parole - for a responsible person of conscience such as yourself, you might wish to consider this unique situation and it's future implications.

Very many individuals in responsible positions had given up asking questions of the US government - it's time to seek very clear definitions of what the US is to US citizens and discuss what it ought to be and mean.

I am not a US security apparatchik in any sense, just an aerospace engineer who has seen some military culture. I design and analyze "stuff" and have never held any security clearance. I have never touched classified information. I don't know how the internal security apparatus functions at all, beyond the parking police that is....

Citizens of this country are entitled to redress if they feel discriminated against, and cannot be deported or held without trial. Students from foreign countries and workers on H1-B visas on the other hand....Yeah, we need immigration reform, but that is a whole nother' can o' worms.

It is unfortunate that members of certain minorities feel discriminated against, but millions of young black males in the inner city are subject to being stopped and searched for very little reason...Because the majority of violent crime victims and perpetrators fit the description of young black/Latino male... It happens, and it is a wider, complex societal issue. Inequity is everywhere, and is not always decreasing. We try as a society, and over the last 40 years, have been steadily improving in most areas. Some areas have taken a setback of late, but there is no particular reason to believe that the US as a society is going backwards.

 

[Ras]

It is 'the way it is' in many places because people refuse to stand up and oppose it.

Bloomberg has obviously chosen not to stay silent, and in my little way I will not either, though other Democratic leaders from NY have been guilty of deliberate ambivalence IMO, and the US media has treated the issue as if it actually has two 'rational' viewpoints. Objectivity is one thing, but without anything factual to hang criticizm of the mosque on, the media should never have given the airtime it did to opponents of the mosque.

'I am not a racist, but I would prefer Black people not move into this particular neighborhood because a Black man robbed and killed several people here years ago'.

It is not fair, and it should be called out for what it is - there is always a chance of the system failing, but at the moment it is not, and those opposing unfair attitudes should push the system to at least provide legal relief. The Court ruling on Gay marriages in California, despite a majority of voters in California supporting a ban on Gay marriages, is one such instance of the System overcoming popular prejudice, bias and discriminatory attitudes, and hopefully setting the standard for what is considered 'fair' and what is not, just as Court rulings against segregationist laws and policies 'officially' shoved that particular viewpoint where it belonged.

Fine by me...I support the mosque construction.

My point was in response to you telling Gambit that as a Muslim you do not have to oppose Islamic terrorist any more than the average Joe. You and me both know that the way to prevent the terrorist from hijacking the popular narrative about Islam is for Muslims to fight them publically.

 

[Tang0]

Many Muslims were illegally deported after 9/11. The Imam of many mosques in US were illegally detained by FBI and many of them deported. Mosques became targets of surveillance and society's stress release. How many times my friends told me that someone fired into their mosque or threw pig carcasses on the property and death threats. What would you know about being one of the few Muslims in your American high school or college and taking a verbal beating or even physical one by your peers every day. How would you like to see your religion twisted by both terrorists and the establishment and media on a second by second basis. Do you even know about all the Pakistanis targeted and killed in the US by racists? So many guys killed working in gas stations for instance. Even Sikhs were killed because they resemble Muslims.

This question is like asking Jews how are they victims of the Holocaust. Anyways next time anyone feels like firing rounds into Mosques, there will be a retaliatory salvo.

I went to university with Muslim enrollment in the hundreds, and never heard any of them complain about serious discrimination. I only had 3-4 close personal friends who were Muslims however, so maybe my sample size was too small...

As for illegal deportation, last time I checked, unless you are a citizen, you are a guest of the US govt. , and can be kicked out for saying rude things, or looking at an immigration officer the wrong way for that matter, if the US govt. feels like it. Which is probably what happened...
As for retaliatory salvo, the US constitution includes the 2nd amendment for a reason, and any citizen is welcome to use his/her firearms in self defense if need be. Hell, to not shoot back would just be plain un-american gosh darrnit...

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

Many Muslims were illegally deported after 9/11. The Imam of many mosques in US were illegally detained by FBI and many of them deported. Mosques became targets of surveillance and society's stress release. How many times my friends told me that someone fired into their mosque or threw pig carcasses on the property and death threats. What would you know about being one of the few Muslims in your American high school or college and taking a verbal beating or even physical one by your peers every day. How would you like to see your religion twisted by both terrorists and the establishment and media on a second by second basis. Do you even know about all the Pakistanis targeted and killed in the US by racists? So many guys killed working in gas stations for instance. Even Sikhs were killed because they resemble Muslims.

This question is like asking Jews how are they victims of the Holocaust. Anyways next time anyone feels like firing rounds into Mosques, there will be a retaliatory salvo.

Murdering 3000 americans civilians in cold blood does kind of cause things like that.

There seems to be 3 murders in retalation for 911, Three cases are crystal clear, Cordell says.

Balbir Singh Sodhi was gunned down on Sept. 15, 2001 in Mesa, Arizona. The turban-wearing Sikh was killed outside his gas station. Sodhi's killer spent the hours before the murder in a bar, bragging of his intention to "kill the ragheads responsible for September 11." He has been convicted and sits on death row.

Waqar Hasan of Dallas, Texas was also murdered on Sept. 15, 2001. The 46-year-old Pakistani, was shot to death in a convenience store he owned. Hasan was murdered by Mark Stroman, who was convicted of also murdering Vasudev Patel days later in nearby Mesquite, Texas.

Cordell noted that Stroman admitted to authorities to blinding a third victim, a Bangladeshi, in between the murders of Hasan and Patel. After his arrest Stroman bragged, "I did what every American wanted to do after Sept. 11th but didn't have the nerve.
List of Post Sept. 11 Hate Crime Victims

Best I can tell about 23 Muslems died in the World Trade Center attack.

Lets say tomorrow some Hindus blew up some buildings in Pakistan and 3000 civilians were killed, how many Hindus would be left in in pakistan if there were six million there.

Considering everything I am of opinion the americans were more restrained then any Arab country would have been, or Pakistan.

 

[sparklingway]

Best I can tell about 23 Muslems died in the World Trade Center attack.

A partial list that goes beyond 23. Muslim Victims of Terrorist Attack, September 11, 2001

Mentioned in the PATRIOT Act:

Many Arab Americans and Muslim Americans have acted heroically during the attacks on the United States, including Mohammed Salman Hamdani, a 23-year-old New Yorker of Pakistani descent, who is believed to have gone to the World Trade Center to offer rescue assistance and is now missing.

 

[CAPTAIN AMERICA]

One can only imagine how much a muzlum is hated in America and wats it like to be a muzlum there ..
though i don't really know it but alot of people say America is by far the most tolerant country on earth when it comes to practice your religion .. !!!

ever wondered why the banner of wmd's were used to justify the killing of 100times more than those killed in the tragedy of 9/11..??

Maybe because it started a war? The way I see it the world is now at war with Islamist Exteremist like the Taliban. I expect its going to be a long war and millions will suffer and die and it will last for decades.

 

[Ras]

Many Muslims were illegally deported after 9/11. The Imam of many mosques in US were illegally detained by FBI and many of them deported. Mosques became targets of surveillance and society's stress release. How many times my friends told me that someone fired into their mosque or threw pig carcasses on the property and death threats. What would you know about being one of the few Muslims in your American high school or college and taking a verbal beating or even physical one by your peers every day. How would you like to see your religion twisted by both terrorists and the establishment and media on a second by second basis. Do you even know about all the Pakistanis targeted and killed in the US by racists? So many guys killed working in gas stations for instance. Even Sikhs were killed because they resemble Muslims.

This question is like asking Jews how are they victims of the Holocaust. Anyways next time anyone feels like firing rounds into Mosques, there will be a retaliatory salvo.

What is an illegal deportation..only non-citizens can be deported and they have the right to judicial recourse in most cases.

 

[whocares]

Lets say tomorrow some Hindus blew up some buildings in Pakistan and 3000 civilians were killed, how many Hindus would be left in in pakistan if there were six million there.

as much as everyone likes to deny it, there are features in the religion that produce higher propensities to mob and vigilante violence(blasphemy/apostacy related lynchings / danish embassy attacks etc), organized armed violence(taliban style etc), violence resulting out of individual paranoia (nidal malik hassan etc) and probably other kinds too where there exists a sufficiently strong link between religious beliefs and violent actions.

if the religion is usable as a violent tool its got bugs.

 

[Tang0]

Yep, and a mosque is not a shrine to Taliban war dead either..
.

Again, not a shrine....Or anything similar.
And US Muslims have failed to prove their loyalty? Two nut jobs get to represent the 2.5 Islamic people in the US? Have you never met a upstanding Muslim in uniform who did their job without question? What about this one?
\

Or how about the dozens of other Muslims buried there?


Nope, they adopted it willingly, much like the 2.5 million US citizens who practice.... That was my point, what is yours?



I will admit the time scales are completely different, perhaps another reason why the analogy is inappropriate? As are the scales, more Marines died in a single week on Iwo Jima than all US military losses in the "War on Terror" . If you include 9/11, okay, we can include the rest of the battle and Peleliu as well....

Anyway, this is all secondary to the point, which is that your concept of decency aside, US law makes it very clear that anyone can put a mosque wherever they please, barring safety concerns and pre-existing zoning prohibitions.

I am not even Muslim if it matters (and it should not) I am agnostic, of lapsed protestant persuasion. But when people question others rights to worship freely, I get upset. I don't know if you ever swore an oath to defend and protect the US constitution, but I think the constitution covers the ability to worship freely somewhere in there... (*Sarcasm*)

And on a final note, there are both Japanese and US war dead memorials on top of Mt. Suribachi, an island administered by Japan...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

as much as everyone likes to deny it, there are features in the religion that produce higher propensities to mob and vigilante violence(blasphemy/apostacy related lynchings / danish embassy attacks etc), organized armed violence(taliban style etc), violence resulting out of individual paranoia (nidal malik hassan etc) and probably other kinds too where there exists a sufficiently strong link between religious beliefs and violent actions.

if the religion is usable as a violent tool its got bugs.

Right, its just Islam, which is why the Sikhs and Hindus rioted in Punjab and Bengal (along with Muslims), on the basis of religion, and committed mass massacres of the other side. It is just Islam which is why thousands of innocent Muslims were killed by Hindus in mob violence with the support of a Hindu Chief Minister of the State of Gujarat. It is just Islam which is why Hindu extremists forcibly razed the Babri mosque and sparked riots involving over a hundred thousand and the deaths of over 2 thousand people. It is just Islam which is why Hindu extremists resentful of Christian missionaries attacked churches and sparked riots killing dozens on both sides.

Islam has no inherent 'bugs', it is the fact that it is distorted and manipulated by extremists that is the problem - distortion and manipulation can occur with anything - there is after all plenty of violence in the Old Testament, attributed to God, that one could manipulate into a justification for violence against any entity. Progressive Hindus now claim that the Caste system in Hinduism was originally meant merely as a system for 'occupational distinctions' and morphed into the vile thing it is over centuries of being distorted and manipulated.

 

[InPhilTraitor]

Babri mosque was built after a temple was razed.

Gujarat riots happened after 53 piligrims were burnt alive, allegedly by muslims.

In short, yes .. you are right

 

[Al-zakir]

IMO if the mosque is built, it will create more hatred for Muslims among the americans in future.

How do you know this? You do not live in USA. People here are neither ignorant nor scum. Keep your BS with you. We will build this Masjid and win the hearts and souls of our fellow Americans.