Ground Zero mosque wins approval !!

[Vinod2070]

To answer colloquially, "ideas are a dime a dozen". What matters in the end are the individuals who actually execute these ideas.

No, you are making it into hindu v/s muslim issue by bringing in south asia and other irrelevant subjects into the discussion.

The point is the consistent frequency and vigor with which Indians attack Islam and muslims -- on this forum and in the outside world.

OK since you are so obsessed with discussing individuals and calling me a bigot, let me reciprocate by calling you an Islamic extremist Pakistani bigot, an apologist for Pakistani and Islamic terror and a hypocrite demanding from secular democracies what you won't reciprocate in your own Islamic countries.

Sounds just so much more credible, doesn't it?

You and one other esteemed member are missing the woods for the trees. It is not an Indian issue. A very small number of Indians are offering their opinions on an issue. The issue itself is American and it is some Americans who think that building a mosque there is like rubbing salt into the wounds.

Anyway, on the topic of Park51, the equation is very simple.

There are two ways to look at Park51: as a provocative symbol of Islam, or as a conciliatory gesture towards enhanced interfaith dialog. Since GZ is (mistakenly) tied in many people's minds to Islam, it makes sense to build interfaith bridges precisely in this context.

If the center had large, gaudy minarets blaring Islamic prayers all through the day, then the first interpretation would be valid.

As it is, however, it is going to be a relatively nondescript building housing any number of community facilities for use by the general public. The whole point of Park51 is to encourage non-muslims to visit it and get acquainted with Islam first-hand.

This is the American way -- people having the freedom to decide for themselves, so why in the world are some people so opposed to it? Could it be that they are afraid to let people bypass their carefully crafted one-dimensional narrative about Islam?

I saw this email supposedly by an American professor to some of his persistently sullen Muslim students.

Wichman sent an e-mail to the Muslim Student's Association.
The e-mail was in response to the students' protest of the Danish cartoons that portrayed the Prophet Muhammad as a terrorist.
The group had complained the cartoons were 'hate speech.'
============
Enter Professor Wichman.
==========================================
In his e-mail, he said the following:
===============================
Dear Muslim Association,
As a professor of Mechanical Engineering here at MSU I intend to protest your protest.
I am offended not by cartoons, but by more mundane things like beheadings of civilians, cowardly attacks on public buildings, suicide murders, murders of Catholic priests (the latest in Turkey), burnings of Christian churches, the continued persecution of Coptic Christians in Egypt, the imposition of Sharia law on non-Muslims, the rapes of Scandinavian girls and women (called 'whores' in your culture), the murder of film directors in Holland, and the rioting and looting in Paris France.
This is what offends me, a soft-spoken person and academic, and many, many of my colleagues. I counsel you dissatisfied, aggressive, brutal, and uncivilized slave-trading Muslims to be very aware of this as you proceed with your infantile 'protests.'
If you do not like the values of the West - see the First Amendment - you are free to leave. I hope for God's sake that most of you choose that option.
Please return to your ancestral homelands and build them up yourselves instead of troubling Americans.
Cordially,
I. S. Wichman
Professor of Mechanical Engineering
=============================
As you can imagine,
The Muslim group at the university didn't like this too well.
They're demanding that Wichman be reprimanded, that the university impose mandatory diversity training for faculty,
And mandate a seminar on hate and discrimination for all freshmen.
Now, the local chapter of CAIR has jumped into the fray.
CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, apparently doesn't believe that the good professor
Had the right to express his opinion.
==========
For its part, the university is standing its ground in support of Professor Wichman,
Saying the e-mail was private, and they don't intend to publicly condemn his remarks.
================================================== ==========

Now tell me, have you (or all these pious people on this thread) ever protested so much against the treatment of minorities in Islamic countries?

Here it is about one more mosque in a place that many Americans consider was the site of Islamic terror attacks on them, in some Islamic countries you can't build a place of worship for any other religion at all!

Have we ever seen a protest even by a solitary Muslim?

Frankly your democratic demands sound hypocritical in the extreme till you at least begin to consider practicing what you preach or demand so vehemently from the others.

I think this video sums it up to some degree.

There you go! Someone enjoying full religious rights as a minority declares that as a majority he will not allow the same rights when Muslims are a religious majority.

Why?

He clearly says that others allow Muslims to pray freely as they were "unsure" of their religion! While Muslims being a "Superpower in religion, Alhemdullilah" won't reciprocate when they are in power.

As clear as it gets. No ifs and buts.

And exactly what we see being practiced in so many Muslim countries.

And this guy is an Islamic scholar.

So are you still confused why your sullen protests don't impress much. They don't have the courage of conviction, just lazy accusations of bigotry and some mythical Islamaphobia without a semblance of self introspection.

 

[Vinod2070]

Some of our Indian Interlocutors have now outed themselves and revealed that their personal ideology, their bias forms the substance of their otherwise informed opinion - they now claim they are more catholic than the pope and hide their bias behind "American" - They seek to conflate Ethnicity and Religion and they are determined that Muslims are not to be thought of as Americans - yet, if they imagine that this attitude will not harm Indians and Hindus and Sikhs, they are mistaken, Diaperheads and Monkey god, these are just the starters are instore for them - Such indians are not thinkng about what the issues are in this made for politics controversy and how much they have ot lose in it, if the constitutional rights of any one group is successfully challeneged in the US, no group, read, Hindus, Sikh, and Jews, in fact no minority that can be successfully villified, will be safe, Do Hindus and Jews imagine that they will be dsafe if Muslim sare no safe? Will their constitutional rights be preseved if tose of Muslims are not?:

Do you belive in private property? Do US citizens have the right to own property? The Mosque will be built on private property!

Does the US constitution gaurantee the freedom religion? Yes it does

Now, you don't have to like any of the idea of private property nor the notion of freedom of religion nor the idea of constitutional liberties -- But that won't effect the legal positon the issue is based on.


Indian used to majoritarianism find it difficult to understand that "feelings" and "sensitivities" of "Americans" (read not Muslims) are just that, feelings, where as the issue is grounded in constitutional liberties.

We would all do better if we were to feel less and think more.

Since you are much more focused on Indians here rather than the issue at hand, let me again reiterate that at least I don' think this issue is about some bigots talking of Diaperheads and Monkey god and pedophilia.

At least, I personally have not talked of the mosque itself. It doesn't matter to me. I have just responded to some posts and expressed my views and some people have chosen to now make it a thread obsessed with India and Indian and are bringing in monkey gid and pedophilia repeatedly!

A barbarian within, intolerant to any opposition? Demanding that others submit as they expect from Dhimmis historically!

What if the tables have turned now? What if the time has come for some time to make a token payment for all that was done and is continuing to this day in many places?

Let's not show petulance by making it India obsessed. People have the right to speak their mind on a subject. Let's just focus on the real issue instead of attacking individuals.

If you are not getting support from some groups you think should be supporting you, can you begin to think why it could be so?

Is it just Islamophobia or "imaginary past" or the terror of the last few decades could have played a part as well?

 

[jeypore]

muse

Thank you for that - now some of our Indian interlocutors cannot claim that they are discussing this from their point of view as Americans - rather, it now stands confirmed that what motivates some is a strong desire for revenge where they play victim of an magined past.

Maybe, but you can cross this Indian out in your assessment!!!

In the present political environment of the US, should this issue, which is a non-issue in reality, that is to say, it revolves around private property and religious freedom, two of the most basic pillars of US society, should US citizenry and especialy media, allow this issue to offer radical politicians a venue, other ethnic and religous minorities, prime among them, Indians and Hindus and Sikhs and Sith Indian Christians in the US would be among the first and last to be victimized.

Now, this statement is the most interesting to me atleast, US is at war still, the war is in Afganistan. Listen to the Presidential speeches, You will here bacially two ways of explaining it:

One is: The War in Afganistan...
Other is: The War against Islamic Fundamentalist...

It is fairly easy to decipher, on the two options, of liberal and conservative media..

So, coming back, Majority American (I am not speaking for all America, but basing of poll only), feel that we are still in War with Islamic Fundamentalist. And my whole discussion is based on this, which Muslim community have to find other means of polarization from these Islamic Fundamentalist, and by only stating "We do not consider them Muslims." Clearly that is not working in America, and perfect proof of this is the Antagonist views facing this Mosque..

 

[jeypore]

Indeed, the point is not about bigotry in society. All cultures have bigots, but ultimately it comes down to individuals.

The point is about individual posters in this forum.

This is typical liberal minded view, when one cannot discuss in par, it boils down to racism or Bigotry, the word of the day...

 

[jeypore]

muse

Some of our Indian Interlocutors have now outed themselves and revealed that their personal ideology, their bias forms the substance of their otherwise informed opinion - they now claim they are more catholic than the pope and hide their bias behind "American"

Why do you keep hacking on personal opinions, when the polls of Americans shows the disagreement of this Mosque (70%). Do I really need to provide link for this, or this has not become a general knowledge for a person living in America. The Indians are not arguing based on Personal issue, but based on what the polls are saying.

They seek to conflate Ethnicity and Religion and they are determined that Muslims are not to be thought of as Americans - yet, if they imagine that this attitude will not harm Indians and Hindus and Sikhs, they are mistaken, Diaperheads and Monkey god, these are just the starters are instore for them -

From your prejudical statement above then, the Diaperheads and the Monkey Gods will have to find divergent ways to Polarize further because they do not want to be part of this!!!!

They seek to conflate Ethnicity and Religion and they are determined that Muslims are not to be thought of as Americans

No Indian or anyother friendlier to Indian has stood out there (front of the mosque or Washington) to protest on the ruling. Unless you are just seeing some Indians making counter points that you are disliking...

 

[muse]

Indian posters seem not to understand the notion of constitutional liberties - They seem unable to to understand that Majoritarianism, something they seem to have a great deal of experience with, is not the same as a COnstitutional Democracy -- In the experience of Indians. given the destruction of the Babri masjid at the hands of hate fillled politically inspired Hindus, the very idea that law gaurantees for all citizens seems to be a uncomfortable idea, this is of course regretable.

The issues in this case are not feelings, rather the use of private property to enjoy the freedom of religion are the issue.

Some indians have offered inspired (by what. you know all to well) have offered numerous polls and numbers, as if they had not heard of conscience and of course given their recent experience of destroying mosques to right imagined wrongs, and the failure of the government ot apply the law, they may not allow it resonate and instead choose ideology over conscience - even though, if US muslims fail to protect their rights, they will endanger those oif all Americans, especially Hindus, Sikhs and Jews.

Diaper heads and Monkey god, these are not reflections of thinking of sane or decent persons, rather they are a warning of what may await the Hindus, and Sikhs.

 

[jeypore]

The elected representatives of American citizens ranging from senators to their president have approved the project.

So whats Indian problem now ???????

Yes, that has been the problem lately in America, Where the Great Obama Health Care Passes in the House, while, the majority of Americans disapproving this bill was close to 75%, perfect example of this is the resent voting in Minnesota..

Do I really need to prove this statement (which I can, if you ask) or Mrs. Jana Do you know Why Minnesota was picked for majority thoughts of Americans on this specific bill???????

 

[Vinod2070]

Indian posters seem not to understand the notion of constitutional liberties - They seem unable to to understand that Majoritarianism, something they seem to have a great deal of experience with, is not the same as a COnstitutional Democracy -- In the experience of Indians. given the destruction of the Babri masjid at the hands of hate fillled politically inspired Hindus, the very idea that law gaurantees for all citizens seems to be a uncomfortable idea, this is of course regretable.

The issues in this case are not feelings, rather the use of private property to enjoy the freedom of religion are the issue.

Some indians have offered inspired (by what. you know all to well) have offered numerous polls and numbers, as if they had not heard of conscience and of course given their recent experience of destroying mosques to right imagined wrongs, and the failure of the government ot apply the law, they may not allow it resonate and instead choose ideology over conscience - even though, if US muslims fail to protect their rights, they will endanger those oif all Americans, especially Hindus, Sikhs and Jews.

Diaper heads and Monkey god, these are not reflections of thinking of sane or decent persons, rather they are a warning of what may await the Hindus, and Sikhs.

The shoe is on the other foot. Indian constitution and Indian democracy are not about "Majoritarianism", almost every Islamic country on the face of the earth is about it.

Difficult for people who think they are special and final and perfect to understand. They can't even understand why the destruction of temples and raising mosques in their place should cause an offense. I don't think it was a deliberate oversight, in their minds they are entitled to destroy others' worship places and replace them with their own as a symbol of triumph. Has happened in too many places all over.

Many temples were destroyed in numerous invasions from what is now Afghnaistan -- but also many Masajid were built

This mindset tells you something!

If foreign invaders replacing thousands of temples with mosques is nothing wrong, what is wrong with replacing some of the worst symbols of bigotry and intolerance and invader's truimph back to their original status?

That suddenly starts to sound horrible?

Yes, the use of private property to enjoy the freedom of religion are important issues. And yes, Islamic world has a long way to go to uphold these values!

You don't think so?

 

[jeypore]

x_man
61 % New Yorkers oppose to Islamic centre...well that’s quite a lot of people. I agree.

BUT,

There is also a large percentage of Americans who believe that either 9/11 was a cover up or the US Govt knew about it....We are talking of people in Millions....That’s a lot of people too.

Look for yourself the polls for 9/11 cover up with CNN, Fox News, TIME, Zogby, various radio polls, MSNBC etc.
There are hundreds and thousands of scientists, engineers, architects, pilots, scholars etc who are questioning the official version of 9/11......Are all the highly intelligent people NUTS??

Dumb as you can get!!!!!

 

[jeypore]

Do you belive in private property? Do US citizens have the right to own property? The Mosque will be built on private property!

Does the US constitution gaurantee the freedom religion? Yes it does

Now we have finally come to grounds of, this has to be done because it is based on US laws!!!! Well before I discuss more, US stands for freedom and this freedom is being Abused, That is all I want to say!!!

And here especially I want to quote Neil Boortz on the grounds of building this Mosque, worth 100 million dollars now, Which clearly will show where the funding will come from, not majority of US Muslims, but Outside sources........

"Mosque at Ground Zero?
Please note the long history of Muslims building Mosques at sites of great Islamic victories."

 

[waraich66]

OK since you are so obsessed with discussing individuals and calling me a bigot, let me reciprocate by calling you an Islamic extremist Pakistani bigot, an apologist for Pakistani and Islamic terror and a hypocrite demanding from secular democracies what you won't reciprocate in your own Islamic countries.

Sounds just so much more credible, doesn't it?

You and one other esteemed member are missing the woods for the trees. It is not an Indian issue. A very small number of Indians are offering their opinions on an issue. The issue itself is American and it is some Americans who think that building a mosque there is like rubbing salt into the wounds.



I saw this email supposedly by an American professor to some of his persistently sullen Muslim students.



Now tell me, have you (or all these pious people on this thread) ever protested so much against the treatment of minorities in Islamic countries?

Here it is about one more mosque in a place that many Americans consider was the site of Islamic terror attacks on them, in some Islamic countries you can't build a place of worship for any other religion at all!

Have we ever seen a protest even by a solitary Muslim?

Frankly your democratic demands sound hypocritical in the extreme till you at least begin to consider practicing what you preach or demand so vehemently from the others.

I think this video sums it up to some degree.

YouTube - Non-Muslims will not have equal Humanrights - Zakir Naik

There you go! Someone enjoying full religious rights as a minority declares that as a majority he will not allow the same rights when Muslims are a religious majority.

Why?

He clearly says that others allow Muslims to pray freely as they were "unsure" of their religion! While Muslims being a "Superpower in religion, Alhemdullilah" won't reciprocate when they are in power.

As clear as it gets. No ifs and buts.

And exactly what we see being practiced in so many Muslim countries.

And this guy is an Islamic scholar.

So are you still confused why your sullen protests don't impress much. They don't have the courage of conviction, just lazy accusations of bigotry and some mythical Islamaphobia without a semblance of self introspection.

If any non muslim dont allow propagation of Islam in their country , muslims should comply the law of land.Similarly if Muslim state dont allow propagation of non islamic religions , non muslim should also comply.

I think Dr Naik should not say that other religion are wrong in media.It creat hatred among muslims and non muslims.

 

[jeypore]

if US muslims fail to protect their rights, they will endanger those oif all Americans, especially Hindus, Sikhs and Jews.

Not to be to techincal in reading, but Mr. Muse the word OIF (OIL), this mistake of yours have happen twice!!! Are you Subconsciously thinking of something else!!!!!!!

 

[Vinod2070]

If any non muslim dont allow propagation of Islam in their country , muslims should comply the law of land.Similarly if Muslim state dont allow propagation of non islamic religions , non muslim should also comply.

I think Dr Naik should not say that other religion are wrong in media.It creat hatred among muslims and non muslims.

Good. The issue is not so much about form but about substance.

Not about whether he should should say it or not but about why he said it, because he and far too many believe it and practice it.

Then they go and demand perfection from others!

The change should not be just for the sake of appearance, it should be to accept the reality of the world and become accepting of the diversity of the world and to start practicing in Islamic societies before demanding stuff from kaffir countries.

 

[jeypore]

The issues in this case are not feelings, rather the use of private property to enjoy the freedom of religion are the issue.

Show me any Muslim country that is also accomadating in this terms, Turkey is the most liberal of the muslims states, just look at there acceptance or toleration value of other religious views in there own country:

In the latest episode of ‘60 minutes’ the audience found themselves shocked to learn that one of the most important Christian leaders of the world feels ‘crucified’ living in a country which is Muslim dominated. With as many as 300 million followers world wide Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew feels that the future of the Church in Turkey is threatened as there have been attacks over the years on the Christian properties as well as anti-Christian movements.

On the show, correspondent Bob Simpson interviewed the Patriarch on the issues that plague Christendom in Turkey. The audience were also made aware of the historical importance of Christianity in Turkey. Bob Simpson asked the question that why is such an important leader as him living in a country that has complete Muslim dominance. To this Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew said that the Christians were here before the Muslims arrived and the city signified the beginning of the Church of Constantinople.

The episode threw light on the forgotten history of the city of Istanbul which was earlier known as Constantinople. Considered one of the most important cities in world history in terms of history and religion, ‘60 Minutes’ showed the changes that have come over the years. Empty churches and lack of recognition of the minority religion by the government is almost threatening to destroy the very foundations of Christendom. The Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, who is the leader of 300 Million of the world’s orthodox Christians, said that he is adamant to stay in Turkey because he felt that the orthodox Christians loved the country they were born in and want to die. At the turn of the century there were as many as 2 million orthodox Christians but now there are merely 4000 left.



More at : ‘60 Minutes’ Reveals The Plight Of Orthodox Christians In Turkey ‘60 Minutes’ Reveals The Plight Of Orthodox Christians In Turkey
‘60 Minutes’ Reveals The Plight Of Orthodox Christians In Turkey

By the way, if you argue based on the link, I can post the actuall 60 minutes Documentary that was shown to the American Public!!!!!!!

 

[Vinod2070]

Show me any Muslim country that is also accomadating in this terms, Turkey is the most liberal of the muslims states, just look at there acceptance or toleration value of other religious views in there own country:

By the way, if you argue based on the link, I can post the actuall 60 minutes Documentary that was shown to the American Public!!!!!!!

Let me guess the tone of replies.

It would likely be about American Muslims have nothing to do with this issue as also intolerance in any Islamic country.