GREECE occupied 16 Turkish Islands

[Adıvar]

I don't know turkish, but do you even know where those islands are situated? Gavdos(and not Gravdos, you don't even seem know the island's name), Gaidhouronisi are just under Crete, Dionisades above it, what legal claims Turkey has there?
Koufonisi? Lol, which of all, cause there are Koufonisia(plural), it is Kato(lower) and Ano(upper) Koufonisi they are situated in Cyclades islands, very far away from turkish mainland. This is a joke of a claim, i could as well claim Imrali Adasi, just because i think i can invade and conquer it. Nothing different from what Hitler did..



No greek invaders dude, i can't put a link yet cause i have to reach 30 posts, but google the protocol annexed to italian-turkish agreement of 1932. You gave it to the italians back then and we got it later from them along with whatever islands they had in the Aegean, as having being in the winners side, and winning against the italian invaders.

Apres quoi les deux Delegations d' un commun accord ont trace sur les cartes hydrographiques anglaises Nos.236, 872, 1546. La ligne frontiere qui passe par les points suivants:

1. 10 milles au sud de liflet de Volos,
   
   
   
2. a moitie distance entre la phare de Kumburnu (Rhodes) et Pandian Point (Anatolia).
   [Twenty seven (27) additional sections follow, which designate the line of demarcation]
   
   
   
   
3. a moitie distance entre Kardak [Imia] (R.k.s.)et Kato I. (Anatolie),

4 January 1932 and 28 December 1932 Turkish-Italian documents
Her succession of the Italian titles in the Aegean through the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty.
It is interesting to note that there is no mention of any "Imia Islet" in these documents. The 4 January 1932 Agreement does not concern the Kardak Rocks. A reference was made to the Kardak Rocks in the 28 December 1932 Document. However, legal procedures with regard to the latter were not completed. Neither was it registered with the League of Nations.

Article 18 of the Covenant of the League of Nations reads as follows; "Every Treaty or International Engagement entered into hereinafter by any Member of the League shall be forthwith registered with the Secretariat and shall as soon as possible be published by it. No such Treaty or International Engagement shall be binding until so registered." Therefore, no legally binding document exists in this respect.

That Italy has approached the Turkish Government in 1937 raising the issue of ratification of the 28 December 1932 document is an additional indication against its validity. This Italian demarche was never responded to and no such action was ever taken.

The Greek proposal submitted during the negotiations of the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty to make a reference to the 1932 two documents was not accepted, and no such reference was included in the text of the Treaty.

The fact that Greece has approached the Turkish Government in 1950 and yet again in 1953 proposing talks with a view to exchanging letters between the two Governments ascertaining the validity of the above-mentioned two documents between Turkey and Greece shows that Greece also had doubts a
s to their validity.

The only document that may be referred to regarding the sovereignty of Dodecanese islands, as already been pointed out, is the 1947 Paris Peace Treaty. This Treaty in its Article 14 enumerates those islands to be transfered to Greek sovereignty one by one. Kardak, is not mentioned among these. The Kardak formations are not "islets" but two rocks. They lie 5.5 miles away from the nearest Dodecanese island. Therefore they do not fit into the definition of "adjacent islets" as stipulated by the Article 14 of the said Treaty.

Quoted from:
http://www.mfa.gov.tr/background-note-on-aegean-disputes.en.mfa

You can find all treaties/agreements Turkey signed since 1923 in the above link.

 

[NickGr]

Why Turkey claims Greek islands as their?

It's crystal clear in my opinion. Because Turkey is already a big land power, but to become an imperialistic empire as she wants it is necessary to become a naval power as well, to have strong naval presence in the Mediterranean. And for that to happen, it must be in expense of Greece, which is due to many reasons(geography, culture, history, international law, etc) stronger than her size in sea but weaker as a land force, there is no other way. Greece, except for the naval power matter, is also the entrance to the balkans and other former ottoman states, where a newottoman imperialistic Turkey would like to have influence and at the end dominate.

 

[xenon54 out]

As i said i want a sincere dialogue, which you're trying to avoid by answering my questions.

Im not sincere by answering your questions? Anyways...

But since i'm an honest man i' ll go again off topic and tell you that as for the Paris peace treaty, which speaks of demilitarization of some greek islands, Turkey wasn't a signing part of the treaty, for the treaty to consider it has been violated, one of the signing parts has to protest against the violation, not a third who has no such right such as Turkey. And since none of the other signing parts has protested, the islands mentioned in the Paris peace treaty as demilitarized are legally militarized.

And what about 1914 Teaty of London? 1923 Lausanne? 1936 Montreux?
You guys put yourself always as the victims here but your not innocent either, the problem is Turkey would barely recieve any solidarity against Greece in this case.

 

[Quasar]

It's simple, plain geography and history. Turkey, which was less than 100 years ago still ottoman empire as a big land power who wants to expand in its former ottoman lands, needs access to sea, Black Sea ain't that kind of access. But Aegean and Mediterranean is the kind of access she needs so as to become a stronger regional and in the future possible superpower. But the problem is past international treaties and law that restored modern Turkey up to a certain considerable point as a land power, but a small sea power with small access to the sea. This is what Turkey is trying to do now, become a naval power at the expense of Greece's islands and territorial rights.
Should Turkey had abandoned her aspirations for an imperialistic bigger country, that will control others and dictate her terms, there shouldn't be problems in the Aegean, as far as really defensive purposes are concerned, Greece has even smaller power than the 1920 s to invade you with a stable and somewhat decreasing population, the ratio in population is 1:8, when in the 1920 s the ratio was close to 1:2.

I was following you and you were kind of a resonable man up until now but that last posts of yours are mis leading! the main issue about the Agean is not Turkish emperalistic demands but 6 miles versus 12 miles you want the total control over Agean Sea and we are opposing this irrational and aggresive demand. Simple no need to play the victim here! in your words 12 miles is an emperalistic demand of yours but 6 miles is the peacful solution from Turkey! The only way for peacful co-existance of both nations is 6 miles! 12 miles is something like below! so please make a favor for all of us including you yourself and cut the bull shit! and be resonable!!

 

[xenon54 out]

I was following you and you were kind of a resonable man up until now but that last posts of yours are mis leading! the main issue about the Agean is not Turkish emperalistic demands but 6 miles versus 12 miles you want the total control over Agean Sea and we are opposing this irrational and aggresive demand. Simple no need to play the vitictim here! in your worlds 12 miles is an emperalistic demand of yours but 6 miles is the peacful solution from Turkey! The only way for peacful co-existance of both nations is 6 miles! 12 miles is something like below! so please make a favor for all of us including you yourself and cut the bull shit! and be resonable!!

Aegean dispute

6 nautical miles (nmi): Current territorial waters and airspace

10 nmi: National airspace claimed by Greece and rejected by Turkey

12 nmi: Possible future extension of territorial waters and airspace under international law

Turkey will never accept this, thats where Greek claims of violation of Airspace and territorial waters come.

 

[NickGr]

I was following you and you were kind of a resonable man up until now but that last posts of yours are mis leading! the main issue about the Agean is not Turkish emperalistic demands but 6 miles versus 12 miles you want the total control over Agean Sea and we are opposing this irrational and aggresive demand. Simple no need to play the vitictim here! in your worlds 12 miles is an emperalistic demand of yours but 6 miles is the peacful solution from Turkey! The only way for peacful co-existance of both nations is 6 miles! 12 miles is something like below! so please make a favor for all of us including you yourself and cut the bull shit! and be resonable!!

In my opinion that's the only legal dispute between Turkey and Greece, the continental shelf, every other so called "dispute" is caused by Turkey and has no legal argument than the argument of force. Greece as far as they say here(Kotzias the mfa was telling it some days before) will start extending to 12 nm gradually in other areas starting from the Ionian Sea(the one bordering with Italy and Albania) and obviously when it has been agreed with all other countries bordering with us and only the sensitive area of the Aegean has remained, we will have our conversations.

Although i think it is Greece's right to extend to 12 nm in general as you have also done everywhere else except for the Aegean, it may be indeed a legally complex issue in this case(as i have seen in similar cases which went to the international court) in the Aegean, so i wouldn't have a high rhetoric on that and wouldn't consider it treason from the greek side if they choose to let it to international court to decide or even if there is some kind of direct agreement between the 2 countries on the condition that Turkey withdraws the other illegal claims. I think at the end if we suppose there will be peace conditions(a big if unfortunately), there will be some ground for conversations and common compromises somewhere between the 6-12 nm(for some islands) from both sides for this matter per se and not as a package like Turkey is trying to do adding more and more claims as if we are in a bazaar. Or even the solution of the international court as i mentioned, which would be in some way compromising judging from other similar cases.

The fact is that Greece could do this and even if we agreed a solution to this matter, Turkey would still then raise more and more claims. I mean you signed the Treaty of Lausanne and now either Erdogan wants it to change, because as he said a few weeks ago "many conditions have changed"(meaning obviously the military, naval and economic situation of Turkey), either we have direct war threats from the CHP about the 12 or 16 or 18 or 152 or i don't know how many islands the say each time. Did any greek party raise claims on the revision of the Lausanne treaty? Did any of the opposition parties put claims on your "stolen islands" or mainland cities? No.
To be totally honest though, i don't exclude the possibility, if Greece gets pushed harder and if the interests of other big countries allign with the greek in this matter to declare 12 nm even in the Aegean.

 

[Mr.Department]

In my opinion that's the only legal dispute between Turkey and Greece, the continental shelf, every other so called "dispute" is caused by Turkey and has no legal argument than the argument of force. Greece as far as they say here(Kotzias the mfa was telling it some days before) will start extending to 12 nm gradually in other areas starting from the Ionian Sea(the one bordering with Italy and Albania) and obviously when it has been agreed with all other countries bordering with us and only the sensitive area of the Aegean has remained, we will have our conversations.

Although i think it is Greece's right to extend to 12 nm in general as you have also done everywhere else except for the Aegean, it may be indeed a legally complex issue in this case(as i have seen in similar cases which went to the international court) in the Aegean, so i wouldn't have a high rhetoric on that and wouldn't consider it treason from the greek side if they choose to let it to international court to decide or even if there is some kind of direct agreement between the 2 countries on the condition that Turkey withdraws the other illegal claims. I think at the end if we suppose there will be peace conditions(a big if unfortunately), there will be some ground for conversations and common compromises somewhere between the 6-12 nm(for some islands) from both sides for this matter per se and not as a package like Turkey is trying to do adding more and more claims as if we are in a bazaar. Or even the solution of the international court as i mentioned, which would be in some way compromising judging from other similar cases.

The fact is that Greece could do this and even if we agreed a solution to this matter, Turkey would still then raise more and more claims. I mean you signed the Treaty of Lausanne and now either Erdogan wants it to change, because as he said a few weeks ago "many conditions have changed"(meaning obviously the military, naval and economic situation of Turkey), either we have direct war threats from the CHP about the 12 or 16 or 18 or 152 or i don't know how many islands the say each time. Did any greek party raise claims on the revision of the Lausanne treaty? Did any of the opposition parties put claims on your "stolen islands" or mainland cities? No.
To be totally honest though, i don't exclude the possibility, if Greece gets pushed harder and if the interests of other big countries allign with the greek in this matter to declare 12 nm even in the Aegean.

Nick . Please even dont think about 12 nm.Even Turkey looks polarized from foreign view. In matters of National Interest you will see solidarity of all .
It could be desastrous for Greece. Believe it. I am a friend of your country . I have Greek friends around the world and in Greece. Don't do it. You will loose all major Ionian islands and parts of Thrace. Sorry, but that will happen and destroy our common hopes for a peaceful future.

http://m.milliyet.com.tr/basbakan-binali-yildirim-edirne-de-siyaset-2582374/

 

[HannibalBarca]

There is 2 solutions to this problem...

The first is "mutual concession" whatever it's 6 or 12... you need to both find the right number to satisfy both of you... and to put egos aside...
The second...is a Crimea version...

Choose wisely...

 

[NickGr]

Nick . Please even dont think about 12 nm.Even Turkey looks polarized from foreign view. In matters of National Interest you will see solidarity of all .
It could be desastrous for Greece. Believe it. I am a friend of your country . I have Greek friends around the world and in Greece. Don't do it. You will loose all major Ionian islands and parts of Thrace. Sorry, but that will happen and destroy our common hopes for a peaceful future.

Ionian islands? Do you even know where they are situated? Did you ask us to extend to 12 nm in Black Sea? It's none of your business and we will extend to 12 nm to all other areas first(when we agree with other countries, such as Italy, Albania, Egypt, Lybia etc), in Ionian Sea, sea of Crete and when it comes to the part of the Aegean, where you say you will be exluded by Greece extending to 12 nm, we could find a solution, if that's your problem.

Greece could as a compromise, extend to most of the islands to 12 nm, to some others somewhere between 6-12 nm or even stay to 6 nm, only so as to be created an international corridor for merchant and military ships to pass freely without any control of Greece. And i say if, because this is not this problem and i'm well aware of it, Turkey is just having imperialistic illusions and Greece happens to be on her way, that's the hard truth my "friend".

Thrace? What do you think, first you threaten, then you speak to me about friendship? There can be no friendship based on such threatening my turkish "friend", i don't know how you build your own relationships in Turkey(with your wife, children, parents, friends, etc), but here in Greece we behave otherwise.
It will be disastrous for Turkey, especially if you try anything in inhabited areas for the time being, we will fight for our wives, children, grandparents and homes if invaded, you will lose and get internationally humiliated.
If and when you get S400s, F35s( because you will not get both, we all know it very well, you know it too even though you don't want to believe it) or other major game changer weapons, i know it will be more difficult for us, i'm no naive and ofc highly sophisticated weapons in many cases judge the outcome of today's wars, in any case we will fight to the death, because we're very frustrated of your threats and warmogering insults, don't expect anything but thousands of turkish bodybags(who could as well be living peacefully and thriving had it not been for your imperialistic illusions) sent back to Turkey. My friend..

 

[damm1t]

Better let's blow up all rocks and small islands that cause problem.. An island-free Aegean is a problem-free Aegean

 

[Mr.Department]

Ionian islands?

Sorry. Of course North Aegean and Dodekanes and not Ionian islands at Adria.

That was the reason for it:
"Ionia is an ancient region of central coastal Anatolia in present-day Turkey, the region nearest İzmir, which was historically Smyrna.".

first you threaten, then you speak to me about friendship

It was not a threat, it was projection what would happen.

 

[NickGr]

It was not a threat, it was projection what would happen.

The projection is a threat that someone has to act for it to be implemented, it can't just happen by itself, it isn't a big scale earthquake that will divide greek western Thrace from the rest of Greece and move it next to Turkey, then kill and ethnic cleanse its greek people and give it to you.
And since, luck, nature, god or whatever won't do something like that, someone has to be the aggressor who thinks he can try and accomplish it. And since Greece doesn't or can't(even if she wanted) have an aggressive stance for realistic reasons(economy, population, etc), from the 2 parts, greek and turkish, the latter has to be the invader for that to happen.
In that case i'm also making a projection on what would happen in a hypothetical projection of yours, thousands of turkish bodybags sent back home for people who would have to pay for the imperialistic ambitions of a small "elite" of people, people who could be living a happy life in their country with their families, children, etc).

 

[Mr.Department]

The projection is a threat that someone has to act for it to be implemented, it can't just happen by itself, it isn't a big scale earthquake that will divide greek western Thrace from the rest of Greece and move it next to Turkey, then kill and ethnic cleanse its greek people and give it to you.
And since, luck, nature, god or whatever won't do something like that, someone has to be the aggressor who thinks he can try and accomplish it. And since Greece doesn't or can't(even if she wanted) have an aggressive stance for realistic reasons(economy, population, etc), from the 2 parts, greek and turkish, the latter has to be the invader for that to happen.
In that case i'm also making a projection on what would happen in a hypothetical projection of yours, thousands of turkish bodybags sent back home for people who would have to pay for the imperialistic ambitions of a small "elite" of people, people who could be living a happy life in their country with their families, children, etc).

Greece’s determination to expand the limit of territorial waters from six to twelve miles would diminish the Turkish and international share to an unacceptably low level, as would Greece’s claim to a ten-mile national air-space limit.
Extension of territorial waters to 12 nautical miles will disproportionately alter the balance of interests in the Aegean Sea to the detriment of Turkey. At present, due to its many islands, Greek territorial waters make up about 40% of the Aegean Sea. In the case of 12 nautical miles wide territorial waters, the ratio rises to over 70%. In the case of extension of territorial waters to 12 nautical miles, Turkey’s territorial waters remain less than 10% of the Aegean Sea while the size of the high seas falls from 51% to 19%.
The Eastern Aegean Islands are demilitarized by several international agreements, including but not limited to the Treaty of Lausanne of 1923 and the Paris Treaty of 1947. These international treaties which are in force and thus binding upon Greece strictly forbid the militarization of Eastern Aegean Islands and bring legal obligations and responsibilities to Greece to this end.
However, despite the protests of Turkey, Greece has been violating the status of the Eastern Aegean Islands by militarizing them since the 1960's in contravention of its contractual commitments and treaty obligations under international law.
Turkey does not have any claim over the islands, islets or such features which were unambiguously ceded to Greece by internationally valid instruments. Yet, it is an incontestable fact that there are many islets and geographical features in the Aegean Sea whose sovereignty is not indisputably given to Greece.

 

[-SINAN-]

@NickGr

You seem like a good fella, (or at least pretending to be nice since you are in a Turkish dominated forum).

You keep calling Turkey aggressor and imperialistic. Let's stop for a moment a and look back to last century. Greeks tried to invade our homeland. Greeks tried to massacre Turkish population in Cyprus. Greeks tried to start a drama on a tiny island which is visible from homeland (not yours). Every time Turks beat you.

We have no interests about fighting the Greeks or invading Greece mainland or it's islands. Yet, your people really like to start shit with Turkey.

 

[Melkor]

@NickGr

You seem like a good fella, (or at least pretending to be nice since you are in a Turkish dominated forum).

You keep calling Turkey aggressor and imperialistic. Let's stop for a moment a and look back to last century. Greeks tried to invade our homeland. Greeks tried to massacre Turkish population in Cyprus. Greeks tried to start a drama on a tiny island which is visible from homeland (not yours). Every time Turks beat you.

We have no interests about fighting the Greeks or invading Greece mainland or it's islands. Yet, your people really like to start shit with Turkey.

They don’t consider Turkey our homeland and they believe we are all barbarians from the east or forced converts. They will never shut up. It is our job to keep them honest and slap them silly if need be.