Govt to stop buying INSAS rifles from Ordnance Factory Tiruchirappalli

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Yeah, this is a game-chnager as far as IA is concerned.

Guys make some suggestions-what do you think the IA is looking at and or which rifle do you think they'll go for?

IA generals are not looking for any thing except securing their future i.e., a kick back of some crores so that after retirement they can maintain their 5 star life style. They come up with a list of absurd features in a weapon picked from different international brochures just to shelve indigenous development. And when it comes to foreign weapons they induct them inspite of not fulfilling all the requirement.

Cant we develop a world class rifle? yes we can, but all it requires is vision, money and little effort that indian gov and MOD lack

 

[chairborne ranger]

seems to be a tough call. We can be sure that the tavor wont be looked upon favourably in terms of being a standard issue. Its great for SF., but somehow i'd expect them to go for a conventional non-bullpup rifle.

i for one, have my misgivings about the multi calibre concept. I mean sure, it'll make it easier to train everyone on one platform, but knowing our government, they wont order enough conversion kits, let alone, other optics, and add-ons. I mean we're giving out 20 round mags as standard on the insas when we DO have a 30 round mag which perfectly fits the assault rifle, to save on cost, and bullets.
The day your basic indian infantryman, starts using optics , laser designators, and UBGLs, will be the day i start believeing in god. It seems unlikely that the govt will sanction enough funds to make this as good as it sounds. No one really cares about the grunt.

ALso, i dont see any matured multi-cal rifles that could be inducted without any scope for problems.
A lot also depends on what specific calibres they want. If its just a 7.62x39 and a 5.56 nato? or do they want a capability to fire the 7.62x51 nato for long range purposes?
the SCAR is definitely the most obvious choice in the latter scenario. However if the army is hell bent on the 7.62 (Not enough of a class difference in cartridge in my opinion), they'd probably be looking at the following three:

1] the cz-805 - 7.62, and 5.56 (also 6.8 remmington supported). Decent assault rifle. Probably costs a tad bit lesser than a scar. Allows a 14 inch barrel for longer ranges. 20,30 and 100 round mags., Picatinny for attachments.
File:Cz805.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2] The beretta arx-160- 5.56 nato, 7.62 and 5.45 russian. Slightly thicker profile that some would like. But decent accuracy.


File:Beretta AR with ACOG.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[chairborne ranger]

But really, if we are willing to wait, say 3 more years, i think the obvious choice here would HAVE to be the ak-12.

Its gonna have everything we need and more

Interchangable barrels

calibres :7.62 and 5.45 russian, and 7.62 and 5.56 nato Takes care of EVERYTHING you could possibly want

Decent 3.3kg weight. Lighter than INSAS anyways.

Better range than most ak models. Legendary reliability, and can take abuse like hell

Carbine,smg,sniper,LMG mod available, standard barrel length of 16 inches. Good enough IMHO

Full picatinny section above and below the barrel.

Improved rifling, new muzzle break. Much better accuracy that ur legacy ak. The rear sight has been moved all the way back like the galil, so as to avoid parallax , as u has with the standard aks anywhere

mags available , are your regular 30 round, 100 round. And you also have a 60 round casket mag that is thicker than ur regular ak mag, but retains the same length and thickness.

WHAT MORE COULD YOU POSSIBLY WANT HERE?

 

[Abingdonboy]

seems to be a tough call. We can be sure that the tavor wont be looked upon favourably in terms of being a standard issue. Its great for SF., but somehow i'd expect them to go for a conventional non-bullpup rifle.

i for one, have my misgivings about the multi calibre concept. I mean sure, it'll make it easier to train everyone on one platform, but knowing our government, they wont order enough conversion kits, let alone, other optics, and add-ons. I mean we're giving out 20 round mags as standard on the insas when we DO have a 30 round mag which perfectly fits the assault rifle, to save on cost, and bullets.
The day your basic indian infantryman, starts using optics , laser designators, and UBGLs, will be the day i start believeing in god. It seems unlikely that the govt will sanction enough funds to make this as good as it sounds. No one really cares about the grunt.

ALso, i dont see any matured multi-cal rifles that could be inducted without any scope for problems.
A lot also depends on what specific calibres they want. If its just a 7.62x39 and a 5.56 nato? or do they want a capability to fire the 7.62x51 nato for long range purposes?
the SCAR is definitely the most obvious choice in the latter scenario. However if the army is hell bent on the 7.62 (Not enough of a class difference in cartridge in my opinion), they'd probably be looking at the following three:

1] the cz-805 - 7.62, and 5.56 (also 6.8 remmington supported). Decent assault rifle. Probably costs a tad bit lesser than a scar. Allows a 14 inch barrel for longer ranges. 20,30 and 100 round mags., Picatinny for attachments.
File:Cz805.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2] The beretta arx-160- 5.56 nato, 7.62 and 5.45 russian. Slightly thicker profile that some would like. But decent accuracy.


File:Beretta AR with ACOG.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

To be fair that is largely because the IA had serious financial constraints in the past now with the budget increasing nicely year on year the costs are less of an issue. The F-INSAS project is a long term program and when it finsihed in ~2020 India will be spending close to $150 BILLION a year on defence so, again, costing is not an issue. This is becoming apparent to the IA and the other services hence we see the best coming to India and not the sub-standard junk we used to.

I am led to belive the rifles issued to the IA grunts will come fully loaded with optics, UBGLs, laser aimers, flashlights, fore grips- the works! This was all detailed in the RFIs sent out by the IA's F-INSAS dept. The IA wants to be a modern force like the US and knows what it needs to do to get there.


And wrt optics and UBGLs in service;

This pic was taken in a foreward area. I am told the IA has started isuing red-*** sights in an ad-hoc basis to many frontline units and that many 10,000s are already in use by the IA. In fact in JK many RR units are already fully equipped with red-*** sights for their AKs. But I guess the IA doesn't see the need to fully roll it out because they have the F-INSAS in the works.



UBGL for INSAS:

Yes this is CRPF, but I believe the OFB is making and delivering ~10,000 UBGLs per year to the IA. In fact this article even mentioned that.

But really, if we are willing to wait, say 3 more years, i think the obvious choice here would HAVE to be the ak-12.

Its gonna have everything we need and more

Interchangable barrels

calibres :7.62 and 5.45 russian, and 7.62 and 5.56 nato Takes care of EVERYTHING you could possibly want

Decent 3.3kg weight. Lighter than INSAS anyways.

Better range than most ak models. Legendary reliability, and can take abuse like hell

Carbine,smg,sniper,LMG mod available, standard barrel length of 16 inches. Good enough IMHO

Full picatinny section above and below the barrel.

Improved rifling, new muzzle break. Much better accuracy that ur legacy ak. The rear sight has been moved all the way back like the galil, so as to avoid parallax , as u has with the standard aks anywhere

mags available , are your regular 30 round, 100 round. And you also have a 60 round casket mag that is thicker than ur regular ak mag, but retains the same length and thickness.

WHAT MORE COULD YOU POSSIBLY WANT HERE?

From a totally superficial view I'd want the IA to get something from the US/Europe. Russia is a little sketchy in this arena and West (US especially) are the kings of rifle accessories-Russia lacks in this arena for sure.

 

[chairborne ranger]

Point taken about the accesories. But what's to stop us from putting european accessories on an ak, with a standard picatinny?
this one's gonna give more bang for buck, over the fn scar anyday. Is Modular to the extreme. Probably never jams, and needs less maintenance.

What's your main issue with the gun, per se, as compared to say, a scar or an acr?

Nice pics on the IA btw. I notice the small rail section for attachin optics on the insas earlier this year. Here in delhi, folding butt variants are getting more and more common with the cisf. Mp-5s too.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Point taken about the accesories. But what's to stop us from putting european accessories on an ak, with a standard picatinny?
this one's gonna give more bang for buck, over the fn scar anyday. Is Modular to the extreme. Probably never jams, and needs less maintenance.

What's your main issue with the gun, per se, as compared to say, a scar or an acr?

Nice pics on the IA btw. I notice the small rail section for attachin optics on the insas earlier this year. Here in delhi, folding butt variants are getting more and more common with the cisf. Mp-5s too.

You know, I can't really put my finger on why I am not in favor of the AK for the F-INSAS, maybe because I feel it is very dated. It is incredibly superficial and shallow reasoning I know but the FN SCAR is just bad a$$!

 

[Tshering22]

Ordnance factory staff fear job insecurity - Times Of India


Some interesting points from a seemingly tedious news story-

1) IA/MoD is not going to be inducting anymore INSAS post 2013, which begs the question what will replace it? And is this related to the F-INSAS program?

2)MoD is allowing pvt compaines into the fold- a VERY good move IMHO.

Seriously?

They need private participation to get a simple, decent modern assault rifle?? Is the OFB's situation that pathetic?

I never knew it was that bad.

Come on! Even Mexico and Argentina make excellent quality assault rifles for their armed forces. We're on the verge of making our own artillery guns and OFB can't make a new assault rifle!!

What about that Trichy assault rifle.

3)"the government has decided to import multipurpose rifles from Israel and Austria"-Isreal I'll assume the Tavor but what weapons is India getting from Austria? I know some state SWAT teams are using the AUG STEYR but I don't think these workers would notice that devlopment, they seem to be implying this is being done in large numbers and for the IA.

A terrible idea; European made assault rifles are effing expensive and a pain in the rear to maintain. Just check the record of maintenance they have versus AK-105s and other Kalashnikov legacy assault rifles.

I just don't understand why Izmash is in so much shyte in Russia. They're still one of the finest arms makers on earth.

Modern AK variants made by them are still one of the best assault rifles on earth. They fire through anything, in any condition and are the best friends of soldiers. The modern variants have lesser recoil and are much more accurate. Why the eff does the Army want STEYR? That's one of the most maintenance intensive guns in the entire NATO arsenal of weapons. Even ISAF troops have complained about STEYRs jamming during combat in Afghanistan.

Tavors I can understand.

It is very shameful that we've to import such an assault rifle like the STEYR AUG

You know, I can't really put my finger on why I am not in favor of the AK for the F-INSAS, maybe because I feel it is very dated. It is incredibly superficial and shallow reasoning I know but the FN SCAR is just bad a$$!

Try this for "dated":

Let's face it; European maintenance intensive "clean room" assault rifles still can't hold a candle to this beast.

 

[chairborne ranger]

Seriously?

They need private participation to get a simple, decent modern assault rifle?? Is the OFB's situation that pathetic?

I never knew it was that bad.

Come on! Even Mexico and Argentina make excellent quality assault rifles for their armed forces. We're on the verge of making our own artillery guns and OFB can't make a new assault rifle!!

What about that Trichy assault rifle.




A terrible idea; European made assault rifles are effing expensive and a pain in the rear to maintain. Just check the record of maintenance they have versus AK-105s and other Kalashnikov legacy assault rifles.

I just don't understand why Izmash is in so much shyte in Russia. They're still one of the finest arms makers on earth.

Modern AK variants made by them are still one of the best assault rifles on earth. They fire through anything, in any condition and are the best friends of soldiers. The modern variants have lesser recoil and are much more accurate. Why the eff does the Army want STEYR? That's one of the most maintenance intensive guns in the entire NATO arsenal of weapons. Even ISAF troops have complained about STEYRs jamming during combat in Afghanistan.

Tavors I can understand.

It is very shameful that we've to import such an assault rifle like the STEYR AUG



Try this for "dated":

Let's face it; European maintenance intensive "clean room" assault rifles still can't hold a candle to this beast.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Seriously?

They need private participation to get a simple, decent modern assault rifle?? Is the OFB's situation that pathetic?

I never knew it was that bad.

Come on! Even Mexico and Argentina make excellent quality assault rifles for their armed forces. We're on the verge of making our own artillery guns and OFB can't make a new assault rifle!!

What about that Trichy assault rifle.




A terrible idea; European made assault rifles are effing expensive and a pain in the rear to maintain. Just check the record of maintenance they have versus AK-105s and other Kalashnikov legacy assault rifles.

I just don't understand why Izmash is in so much shyte in Russia. They're still one of the finest arms makers on earth.

Modern AK variants made by them are still one of the best assault rifles on earth. They fire through anything, in any condition and are the best friends of soldiers. The modern variants have lesser recoil and are much more accurate. Why the eff does the Army want STEYR? That's one of the most maintenance intensive guns in the entire NATO arsenal of weapons. Even ISAF troops have complained about STEYRs jamming during combat in Afghanistan.

Tavors I can understand.

It is very shameful that we've to import such an assault rifle like the STEYR AUG



Try this for "dated":

Let's face it; European maintenance intensive "clean room" assault rifles still can't hold a candle to this beast.

I'll give it to you Western rifles used to have an issue with reliability, they realized this and have addressed it and they've really come a long way:

Watch from 1.52-

 

[chairborne ranger]

You know, I can't really put my finger on why I am not in favor of the AK for the F-INSAS, maybe because I feel it is very dated. It is incredibly superficial and shallow reasoning I know but the FN SCAR is just bad a$$!

hey if it aint broke, dont fix it.

what's so revolutionary about an fn-scar anyway? no new super-powered round, no complete recoil damping system.....its ergonomic and modular...but firing mechanism wise..its nothing that new. Dont be hatin on the kalash, man....she's a nice gun...and if you've ever fired an ak-74, you'll know its actually one of the most controllable assault rifles on auto..ever...

 

[Abingdonboy]

hey if it aint broke, dont fix it.

what's so revolutionary about an fn-scar anyway? no new super-powered round, no complete recoil damping system.....its ergonomic and modular...but firing mechanism wise..its nothing that new. Dont be hatin on the kalash, man....she's a nice gun...and if you've ever fired an ak-74, you'll know its actually one of the most controllable assault rifles on auto..ever...

You're 100% right, and my head know this. But my heart would LOVE to see the SCAR in service it is just soooooo cool! But whatever-the IA will get what's best for them.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

They're obviously transitioning away from the INSAS.

 

[chairborne ranger]

You're 100% right, and my head know this. But my heart would LOVE to see the SCAR in service it is just soooooo cool! But whatever-the IA will get what's best for them.

alas...i can understand

 

[ironman1]

nothing but KICKBACKS in this scenario ! we can put satellites into orbit but can't make decent assault rifle . i refuse to believe ! we made anti material rifle in record time ( that too with changeable caliber ) !

i am really sad what the nation has come to !

 

[IndoUS]

I saw somewhere that the factory workers are protesting because of the canceling of the rifle, is this true?