Good News for Pakistan? Turkey’s New Tank Is Ready for Mass Production

[fox 2]

 

[Umair Nawaz]

i highly doubt it. Considering that it wasnt part of Haider project or wasnt in trials recently as well as its concept(heavy armour) with a lot of european and specially american engines, its chances r very very slim in pakistan.

 

[SQ8]

American's learn't what lack of heavy armour can do. ask them what happened in Somalia in Mogadishu. They made a movie. Black Hawk down. It was dated Pakistani tanks and Malaysian APCs that saved them or the Rangers would have been toasted by the "Skinees".

I'd respectfully disagree as that being the wrong example to give. Im not sure how you are quantifying the success of what were mostly M-113s backed up by a few Pattons against rag tag somalis with at best RPG-7's as an example of successful tank warfare.

The whole idea of mass Tank offensives that you give for the Germans in WWII were useful because the Germans still had far superior tactics in Blitzkrieg to any allied defence in early WW2. A better example could be Raseiniai where the combined offensive with generally adept tanks still blew away a superior enemy. An example of a superior tank being able to take on an inferior one in both offensive and defensive operations is the Tiger.

With today's highly accurate ATGMs(of which India has a considerably larger and soon much better numbers), any such "non-timid" actions you speak of would make Patton-nagar look like a footnote in history thanks to both their and our side being fairly well rehearsed in entrenched Defensive operations.

As for our requirement, we need a spearhead for Counter offensive operations against an enemy that is in the process of taking our territory. Essentially we need a very good stab in the sides that can cut off and flank any such CBG type attacks with utter impunity and leave an offensive operation that is slowed by our defensive tactics(and faster medium tanks) reeling back into their territory. For that, we need a really fast moving light footprint vehicle that can skim across the known space of the desert and in the south to strike in pincer movements at the rear of offensives.

Anything in the north is a meatgrinder anyway.

Indian concept of CAS is evolving in some ways better focused at stand off weapon systems as compared to ours which is forward thinking if not delayed(or completely befuddled) by their own bumbling "babus".
In a way, Pakistan's greatest ally in the war against India is the Indian Ministry of Defence.@spectre

 

[Spectre]

Pakistan's greatest ally in the war against India is the Indian Ministry of Defence.@spectre

1. Irrespective of our bumbling babus (clueless bean counters exist in most large forces) law of averages catches up and there will be some good ones to balance out the bad ones. Frankly speaking in India-Pakistan scenario the momentum is against you guys and unless the entire institutions fail in both our countries and irrational Hitler folks somehow manage to wrestle control - these lapses and delays are inconsequential in larger scheme of things.

2. Even a thousand desert foxes for their individual and collective wisdom and expertise cannot change facts on the ground which is that there is no military answer to Pakistan in any situation and the reason I say this is not because of the nuclear deterrence but demographic deterrence. Too much time has passed since our respective formations as independent nations and the nationalist spirit in Pakistan will make holding territory a thing even Dante would have nightmares about. The same logic applies for surgical strikes and punitive operations - what is the benefit? all camps destroyed would be back up in a day, a more hostile Pakistan, loss of investment due to negative security situations and so on and so forth.

3. For Pakistan situation is different as it sees an opening in Kashmir which it carefully cultivates, that combined with somewhat justified moral cause and lure of water security would ensure it would always seek to change the status quo.

Keeping in mind the above I would say we are in a very good place in stability-instability equilibrium and Pakistan can afford to concentrate on it's insurgency and economy, keeping India specific arms build up on the ice for time being. India did something very similar if you think about it. Any other nation surrounded by two hostile nuclear neighbours would be spending 5-6% of GDP in defence (thrice as much as that of India) but instead of channelling these savings into social welfare, all was lost in corruption. And now I am way off topic.

 

[fatman17]

why would Pakistan army suddenly switch over to the Turkish mbt after investing millions of $ in AK1 and Al Zarrar systems. it would certainly use some of the Turkish mbt's components to upgrade the AK1 and Al Zarrar as suggested by the article. the Turkish mbt will not come cheap, probably 2 x cost of an AK1.

 

[Inception-06]

Right. So to counter that "numerical advantage"

Is it just me that sees contradiction here between first quote and second? To reduce it your saying enemy has numbers advantage so we shall throw even bigger numbers at him?

Western tank theory and design were formed during the Cold War. The Soviet Union had vast tank armies and enjoyed huge numerical advantage. In this scenario NATO countries went for quality against quantity as they knew they could never match the Russians in numbers.

Before that the Germans had faced impossible odds. They knew there was no way they were going win against the Allies as they had the shear numbers on their side. The only option the German's had was to go for quality. Thus few Tigers, Panthers faced swarms of Shermans and T-34s.

In the context of Pak/India I am expected to believe that India has the numbers advantage but we are going to do them in with numbers? Surely that cannot make sense.

Pak/India wars are always sharp, short affairs. Ever seen a fight between two fat guy's? They don't last long as within minutes both will be on the ropes puffing and panting. That's India/Pak wars for you. Now in this context I would prefer to have smaller but more lethal tank force. I am no Basil Liddel-Hart but I do know that a Tank is primarily a offensive weapon.

Thus I would have Pak Army to be cultivated with the dictum "the best defence is offence" - that is the culture of the army should be aggressive and slanted toward taking the war to the enemy with mobile warfare being the ideal to be followed. In this offensive mobile warfare, spead is essential and tanks are the choice platform. The German's practiced this with Blitzkrieg and we know what the results were.

In this scenario Pakistan would punch a hole through the border at a given point with a strike force made up of MBTs like Altay with infantry, artillery in tandem via APCs and self propelled artillery and capture a salient and create a bulge into Indian lines. By this stage either a ceasefire would be declared or things would go serious and turn nuclear in which case it would matter nought which tanks either side has. Assuming it is ceasefire that captured bulge would be used to trade for any gains made by India along the frontline.

Now I am not going to be sparse with truth or so as I see it. Pak Army is no German Army. PMA Kakul does not produce Guderians, Rommels, Runsedt or SS-Standartenführer Joachim Peiper. Instead Pak Army has turned armour warfare into defensive doctrine and spread it's assets along the entire border. This create a force that developes a defensive traits and digs rather than charges. To be fair Pak is saved because this battle timidity is also prevalent in the Indian military.

Therefore Pak/India wars are best described as local engagements at brigade level along the 1,000 mile front and without huge armies being flung across the frontlines as we often saw in WW2 and US Army in Iraq that hit like huge hammer and then drove breakneck speed behind the enemy lines. This sort of war requires coomand level staff to have balls of steel and divisions on the ground needs commanders willing to charge ahead while taking huge causalties but keep rolling forward all the while improvising.

SS-Standartenführer Joachim Peiper's attack in Battle of Bulge with his Kampfgruppe Peiper is study in how armoured attack is led against larger and overwhelming enemy in the most difficult circumstances imaginable. What Kampfgruppe Peiper demonstrated was even in adverse circumstances bold leaders with well trained men armed with good weapons can wreal havoc on the enemy. PMA Kakul needs to nurture this spirit rather than launching coups with 111 Brigade.

Battle of Bulge

Unfortunately Pak Army has demonstrated lack of strategic acumen or battlefied flexibility. This was show by 1965 cock up and even the Kargil debacle.

Nice Reply, but dont underestimate the economic and corruption factor in our forces ! To your statement about PMA and teaching the military history of the second world war, specially the chapter "Wehrmacht", I think this capitals are not taught in details at the PMA and are underestimated. May be its a personal interest of the cadets to learn more about "german war history" and study it on their own in the PMA library. Secondly PMA is still focused on British and american lecture and military history of the german capital seems to be untouched. PDF Members know more about the the german warfare of WW2 than our Generals and Officers. I am studying in my free time at worke and home since 12 years military history and my main focus was always at the "Wehrmacht"-german Army. I must say Our Army is not doing bad with the Tank Arsenal and resources which our Pakistan gives us.




Check my old posts:


"Ulla, post: 7893238, member: 5165"

The Pakistani Al-Zarrar Tanks can be deployed as support weapons for infantry assaults, an infantry support weapon in the breakthrough of defence lines role. Once an attack supported by infantry, tanks had broken through heavily defended areas in the enemy lines, faster tanks such as Al-Khalid or T-80 UD can expected to use their higher speed and longer range to operate far behind the front and cut lines of supply and communications or attack enemy Tank formations.


The advantage of such Independent Al-Zarrar Brigades is their Fast and close fire support which no other weapon in our inventory can give and that at LOW costs, while they can easily join the heavier and modern armored units as second attack line, here we come to the tactic which is called Panzerkeil.




The panzerkeil is an offensive formation used by armoured corps. The tanks would form into awedge-shaped formation, with the most heavily armed and armoured Tanks forming the tip, that are the Al-Khalid and T-80UD Tanks, ,T-85IIMP upgraded the base (where available), with the Al-Zarrar the wings.

There are many other tactic and strategies why Pakistan armoured Corps did make the decision not scrap the
Type-59IIM but to give them a second live !

 

[Hamza913]

I have a general analysis (can be wrong), I don't see much scope of tanks in future warfare. Tanks, even the quickest, is slower than other options and easy target for most anti-tank systems. Invest in better, more accurate and potent anti-tank missiles, helicopters and ground attack aircrafts. Just have few tank-divisions/artillery to defend and keep your presence in the field for a battle but focus on other options more.

The thing is mate, as anti tank weapons get better, so do the bloody tanks! Tanks can create smoke around them to allow them to be MUCH harder to hit and are also accompanied by numerous troops that will be on hot alert for any anti tank weapons. Not to mention anti tank weapons don't usually destroy tanks with one hit, it takes multiple hits. This means you will need large stashes of ammo nearby to hit the tank with. This makes spotting you all the easier. The only way to avoid being spotted is by firing from long range, which will probably give the tank enough time to deploy its smokescreen.

You could use the typical RPG or something of that nature, but again, that requires multiple hits, and you will have to be VERY close to get the tank. Not to mention you will probably die.

The REAL way to deal with tanks is to use tanks as well as anti tank weapons. We have 36,000 anti tank weapons and 2,500 tanks. I am not sure how many anti tank weapons we have on the Eastern side, but I would guess 20,000-25,000. As for our actual tanks, all of them are on the Eastern side.

India has about 4,500 tanks in comparison, with 3,000 of them for use against us. As for how many anti tank weapons they have, 50,000. How many of them are for us? I have no clue. I would assume 30,000-40,000.

We can certainly handle these sorts of numbers.

 

[mustafa erkan]

Turkey cant export them until finishing domestic engine production and transmission.MTU engine and RENK transmission are only for TURKEY.Azerbaycan ,Saudi Arabia and may be Pakistan will wait for domestic ones.Tumosan got 48 months period for devoloping turkish powerpack.It is enough time for Turkey to produce altay for TSK.Timing shows that when we finish producing first batch of Altay we will begin to export them.
Also Turkey's FNSS working with Indonesia's Pindad on developing a medium-weight tank desing which has 105 mm smoothbore gun.Development period is 37 months and one years passed.This tank will also use Turkish power-pack ı guess.This will be also an alternative for our allys .We will have state of art heavy-tanks(altay),medium-weight tanks,IFVs(fnss av-8,otokar tulpar).
All of them will be an alternative for our brothers.

 

[xyxmt]

nice...
otokar light ifantry

bhai sb poooori dunia se tank khareeed rhe hu pse kon de ga...
Pakistan ka budget deficit phle he bht increased

have you never done windows shoping

 

[optimisticlad]

have you never done windows shoping

First time ...........
we are witnessing window shopping of tanks lolx

 

[Muhammad Omar]

First time ...........
we are witnessing window shopping of tanks lolx

Plus testing them