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what exactly does "electro-ionic systems" mean?

seems you think its does mean something like the ion drive used in spacecraft, but, if so, on a fighter its pretty useless for movement, its trust is tiny, a very common comparison is the force of the weight of a single piece of paper, not to mention it doesnt work well in a area with other ionized particles, think during storms. there is a good reason no one else does this even when ion thrust tech has been around for decades.

if you mean high voltage, ion-propelled cooling, well that has been well researched that doesnt work well as a cooling device, its efficiency is simply too low as compared to a simple fan, not to mention water cooling.

im not even sure what you mean by "regulating electrical circuitry", what does that even mean?
It is just some device to find out the difference in potentials between electrical circuits and regulate them for some specific task.
I have just posted the possibilities, the Iranians know better for what they have used the electro-ionic systems.
There are many possibilities and I have posted a very few ones. There is much research going on the subject, like real airplane flight using just the electro-ionic system for propulsion without any other engines, which seems difficult but doable, My guess is that using both engines and an electro-ionic system can be feasible, and more manageable than the latter by itself. But let us keep it to what the Iranians used it for and they specified it was in the structure of the aircraft...
 
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you can't use plasma for cooling electronic boards it makes damage for electronic parts and it is not cooler for using ion thruster it can be used but plane will be slow like glider or can't fly they want ions for making better aerodynamics and for hiding big missiles witch can not be inside plane because of it's size (plasma stealth) .
when these thick body wings have plasma on them their aerodynamics will be better like narrow .

Do you even know what a plasma is? cooling electronic boards with plasma? Are you kidding me? It's like using sun for making ice.
About the aerodynamics and plasmas, there is an opinion to use plasma to reduce the drag.
 
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what exactly does "electro-ionic systems" mean?

seems you think its does mean something like the ion drive used in spacecraft, but, if so, on a fighter its pretty useless for movement, its trust is tiny, a very common comparison is the force of the weight of a single piece of paper, not to mention it doesnt work well in a area with other ionized particles, think during storms. there is a good reason no one else does this even when ion thrust tech has been around for decades.

if you mean high voltage, ion-propelled cooling, well that has been well researched that doesnt work well as a cooling device, its efficiency is simply too low as compared to a simple fan, not to mention water cooling.

im not even sure what you mean by "regulating electrical circuitry", what does that even mean?

Maybe he means the plasma thing that Russian were trying to use in their stealth airplanes .
 
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There is much research going on the subject, like real airplane flight using just the electro-ionic system for propulsion without any other engines, which seems difficult but doable,

no,not only difficult but not possible with what we currently know, earlier i talked about the force of a weight of a piece of paper, well guess what, to achieve that you need about 2-kw of power, for comparison, the american a-10 has like 8 tons of thrust (f-22 has greater than 35), guess how much power you would need to produce 8 tons of continuous thrust from an ion engine and guess much much such a power plant would weigh.

simply put, an plane with only a ion-trust engine is no-where near able to lift itself let alone carry ordinance. not for the foreseeable future.


My guess is that using both engines and an electro-ionic system can be feasible, and more manageable than the latter by itself. But let us keep it to what the Iranians used it for and they specified it was in the structure of the aircraft...

again the thrust provided by a ion thrust engine is completely useless to a fighter and the power trade off is simply not worth it
 
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Maybe he means the plasma thing that Russian were trying to use in their stealth airplanes .

i highly doubt thats what they mean. the power requirements for full coverage are in the megawatts, iran simply do not have the engines to power such a system. and shaping of the gases are not easy not to mention full coverage would also render your own radar and other sensors blind

plasma stealth is actually extremely difficult, i find it extremely hard to believe that iran has mastered this
 
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no,not only difficult but not possible with what we currently know, earlier i talked about the force of a weight of a piece of paper, well guess what, to achieve that you need about 2-kw of power, for comparison, the american a-10 has like 8 tons of thrust (f-22 has greater than 35), guess how much power you would need to produce 8 tons of continuous thrust from an ion engine and guess much much such a power plant would weigh.

simply put, an plane with only a ion-trust engine is no-where near able to lift itself let alone carry ordinance. not for the foreseeable future.




again the thrust provided by a ion thrust engine is completely useless to a fighter and the power trade off is simply not worth it

Ion thrusters provide 55 times more propulsion than jet engines


Following a round of experiments, MIT researchers have discovered ion thrusters to be much more efficient as a source of propulsion than conventional jet engines.

b5795cad8ce7536820f6a1862a9c3b87.jpg

Ion propulsion (Image via parabolicarc.com) This new information could lead to all sorts of military and security benefits, as the technology is entirely silent and invisible to infrared.

Electrohydrodynamic thrust 101
Ion thrusters are based on a phenomenon referred to as “electrohydrodynamic thrust”, or “ionic wind” for short. There are three parts to your typical ionthruster: a thin copper electrode (emitter), a thicker tube of aluminum (collector), and the air gap between. A frame supports the wires, which connect to an electrical power source.

When voltage is applied, the field gradient takes electrons away from local air molecules. These suddenly ionized molecules are repelled by the corona wire and attracted to the collector. As a cloud of ions moves toward the aluminum, it collides with surrounding neutral air molecules, pushing them along.

This effect, in turn creates a wind, or thrust. If enough voltage is applied, the resulting wind can produce enough thrust to move a vehicle forward, without the help of motors or fuel.

Ionic wind was first discovered in the 1960s, but it was written off for various reasons, including the theory that ion thrusters used as jet propulsion would be extremely inefficient due to the believe that the technology would require a ton of electricity to produce enough thrust to propel the plane forward.

As such, ionic wind technology has largely been relegated to science-fair and hobbyist projects, with no actual studies of the technology taking place.

What the MIT researchers discovered about ionic wind
In a paper published in the Proceeding of the Royal Society, MIT researchers report that ion thrusters are actually far more efficient as a source of propulsion than conventional jet engines. Speaking numbers, they found that ionic wind produces 110 newtons of thrust per kilowatt, as compared to a jet engine’s 2 newtons per kilowatt.

Steven Barrett, an assistant professor of aeronautics and astronautics at MIT, co-authored the paper with graduate student Kento Masuyama. He foresee a scenario in which ionic wind is used as a propulsion system for small, lightweight aircraft, which would benefit, among other groups, the military, as the technology is silent, and since it gives off no heat, it’s also invisible in infrared.

“You could imagine all sorts of military or security benefits to having a silent propulsion system with no infrared signature,” Barrett said.

How the team took measurements
Barrett and Masuyama built a model similar to the one described above, with the only difference being that they hung their system under a suspended digital scale. Once everything was in place, they applied tens of thousands of volts to the system, creating enough current draw to power up an incandescent light bulb.

As they went further with the experiment, the duo altered the distance between the electrodes, and also recorded the thrust as the device lifted off the ground.

The time at which the technology was most efficient was when it was producing lower thrust – a desirable yet somewhat counterintuitive result.

“It’s kind of surprising, but if you have a high-velocity jet, you leave in your wake a load of wasted kinetic energy,” Barrett explains. “So you want as low-velocity a jet as you can, while still producing enough thrust.”

Outlook
While ion thrusters sound like a promising technology, thrust density remains a big hurdle for the technology. You see, ion thrusters rely upon the wind produced between electrodes: the larger the space, the stronger the thrust. This means lifting a small aircraft and its electrical power supply would necessitate an enormous gap between electrodes.

Barrett believes that electrodynamic thrusters for aircraft — should they ever get to the point that they could actually work — would take up the entire vehicle.

Also standing in the way of this technology: the voltage needed in order to get the vehicle off the ground. Small, lightweight models require several kilovolts. Barrett guesses that a small aircraft, complete with on-board instrumentation and power supply, would need hundreds, if not thousands, of kilovolts in order to just get up in the air.

“The voltages could get enormous,” Barrett says. “But I think that’s a challenge that’s probably solvable.” A solution he suggests is supplying the craft with lightweight solar panels or fuel cells.

Ned Allen, chief scientist and a senior fellow at Lockheed Martin Corporation, is not dismayed by the drawbacks of this technology, but instead believes it “offers nearly miraculous potential.” He adds, “[Electrohydrodynamic thrust] is capable of a much higher efficiency than any combustion reaction device, such as a rocket or jet thrust-production device.”

Barrett concludes, “Efficiency is probably the number one thing overall that drives aircraft design. [Ion thrusters] are viable insofar as they are efficient. There are still unanswered questions, but because they seem so efficient, it’s definitely worth investigating further."

Story via: mit.edu
Ion thrusters provide 55 times more propulsion than jet engines - Electronic Products

That is all to it.
No one has claimed that the Qaher-313 uses Ion thrusters, They said they have incorporated some electro-ionic systems in the structure of the aircraft. So one should investigate what these systems can be used for in the structure of an airplane or a fighter airplane if he wants to understand what the Iranians mean with that statement.
 
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This is another possibility and most probable use of the electro-ionic systems in the structure of an airplane: (A good scientific read too)

Zeta potential
is a parameter characterizing electrochemical equilibrium on interfaces. It depends on the properties of liquid as well as on properties of the surface. It plays an important role in theory of aggregative stability - DLVO theory [1,2]. Electrostatic repulsion between particles depends on the value of zeta potential. The higher the zeta potential, the stronger the repulsion, the more stable the system becomes. For instance, high zeta potential of the fat droplets in milk prevents them against coalescence. Reduction of it due to addition of acid would lead to cheese formation from coalescence droplets.

Zeta potential is a property of an electric structure that is usually built up at interfaces:Double Layer. According to Fundamentals of Colloid and Interface Science by J. Lyklema [3]: "...the reason for the formation of a "relaxed" ("equilibrium") double layer is the non-electric affinity of charge-determining ions for a surface...". This process leads to the build up of an "electric surface charge". This surface charge creates an electrostatic field that then affects the ions in the bulk of the liquid. This electrostatic field, in combination with the thermal motion of the ions, creates a countercharge, and thus screens the electric surface charge. The net electric charge in this screening diffuse layer is equal in magnitude to the net surface charge, but has the opposite polarity. As a result the complete structure is electrically neutral.

Zeta potential, short tutorial
 
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It is just some device to find out the difference in potentials between electrical circuits and regulate them for some specific task.
I have just posted the possibilities, the Iranians know better for what they have used the electro-ionic systems.
There are many possibilities and I have posted a very few ones. There is much research going on the subject, like real airplane flight using just the electro-ionic system for propulsion without any other engines, which seems difficult but doable, My guess is that using both engines and an electro-ionic system can be feasible, and more manageable than the latter by itself. But let us keep it to what the Iranians used it for and they specified it was in the structure of the aircraft...

I have been watching this debate for long and have came to conclusion that Qaher313 supporters like you are uneducated in basic Physics and think that if they throw up name of some exotic tech to propel their super stealth plane, no one would be able to call their bluff.


You simply don't know basics of Ion-thruster Engine. Ion thruster Engine is an engine which uses magnetic field ( Hall's effect ) to propel charged ions. This engine produces low thrust ( lower than a conventional rocket Engine ) but provides much better fuel efficiency than a conventional rocket engine ( cumulative tractive force of Ion thruster is more but produced over very long time period; ie it is a low acceleration engine). Thrust of this engine is so low that it cannot accelerate itself to escape velocity of earth. It is only used in deep-space probes and is accelerated to escape velocity using conventional rocket Engine ( Ion thrusters start only after the spacecraft has reached into outer space ).

Even the conjecture that an Ion thruster could be used in aviation is so laughably stupid that only a scientifically illiterate person could be expected to make such assertion ( or someone who think that everybody is damn stupid ). A jet with Ion thruster would not generate enough thrust to overcome static friction between aircraft and tarmac, let alone allowing it to perform maneuvers.


Regarding cooling with Plasma, the clown who made that point do not understand what plasma is. Plasma is a soup of ionized particles ( usually at very high temperature ). If used on electronics, they would fry them. Only use that Plasma could be put to is making a shield of plasma around aircraft as plasma blocks Radio waves, a sound concept on paper until someone points out that Aircraft is not stationary but moving thus requiring huge amount of plasma to be produced every microsecond. something beyond capability of any jet Engine.
 
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Ion thrusters provide 55 times more propulsion than jet engines

That is all to it.
No one has claimed that the Qaher-313 uses Ion thrusters, They said they have incorporated some electro-ionic systems in the structure of the aircraft. So one should investigate what these systems can be used for in the structure of an airplane or a fighter airplane if he wants to understand what the Iranians mean with that statement.

you clearly do not understanding the article, the topic nor my previous statements.

ion thrust do provide more efficient thrust hence why its great for spacecraft.

however its continuous thrust is extremely low, think of it like a battery vs. a capacitor

a jet is like a capacitor,able to provide large amount of power very quickly, but it has less overall energy than a comparable battery,so a jet operates for hours providing high power during those hours

a ion thruster is like a battery, able to provide a few volts for a long time. ion thrusters in spacecraft can operate on for years at a time but with very low thrust at any given time.

see the problem? in a fighter you are not going to take off with a ion thruster even if it can be on for years at a time


and i dont think they mean ion thruster either,because it simply makes no sense with present or forseeable future tech.
 
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I have been watching this debate for long and have came to conclusion that Qaher313 supporters like you are uneducated in basic Physics and think that if they throw up name of some exotic tech to propel their super stealth plane, no one would be able to call their bluff.


You simply don't know basics of Ion-thruster Engine. Ion thruster Engine is an engine which uses magnetic field ( Hall's effect ) to propel charged ions. This engine produces low thrust ( lower than a conventional rocket Engine ) but provides much better fuel efficiency than a conventional rocket engine ( cumulative tractive force of Ion thruster is more but produced over very long time period; ie it is a low acceleration engine). Thrust of this engine is so low that it cannot accelerate itself to escape velocity of earth. It is only used in deep-space probes and is accelerated to escape velocity using conventional rocket Engine ( Ion thrusters start only after the spacecraft has reached into outer space ).

Even the conjecture that an Ion thruster could be used in aviation is so laughably stupid that only a scientifically illiterate person could be expected to make such assertion ( or someone who think that everybody is damn stupid ). A jet with Ion thruster would not generate enough thrust to overcome static friction between aircraft and tarmac, let alone allowing it to perform maneuvers.


Regarding cooling with Plasma, the clown who made that point do not understand what plasma is. Plasma is a soup of ionized particles ( usually at very high temperature ). If used on electronics, they would fry them. Only use that Plasma could be put to is making a shield of plasma around aircraft as plasma blocks Radio waves, a sound concept on paper until someone points out that Aircraft is not stationary but moving thus requiring huge amount of plasma to be produced every microsecond. something beyond capability of any jet Engine.
Your post is enough to judge you uneducation in physics and in conversation. Who is talking about Ion thrust technology?

you clearly do not understanding the article, the topic nor my previous statements.

ion thrust do provide more efficient thrust hence why its great for spacecraft.

however its continuous thrust is extremely low, think of it like a battery vs. a capacitor

a jet is like a capacitor,able to provide large amount of power very quickly, but it has less overall energy than a comparable battery,so a jet operates for hours providing high power during those hours

a ion thruster is like a battery, able to provide a few volts for a long time. ion thrusters in spacecraft can operate on for years at a time but with very low thrust at any given time.

see the problem? in a fighter you are not going to take off with a ion thruster even if it can be on for years at a time


and i dont think they mean ion thruster either,because it simply makes no sense with present or forseeable future tech.
The same applies to you like my response above.
 
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Your post is enough to judge you uneducation in physics and in conversation. Who is talking about Ion thrust technology?


The same applies to you like my response above.

oh really? please point out which part of what i said about "physics" is incorrect, it is you who do not understand
 
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dear applesauce by theory you can use plasma engines for plane but in reality it needed such a high voltage (million volt) witch is dangerous and need a lot of electricity nobody made such ion engine until now and they are not using ion engine they are using one normal jet engine . except this I think my friend SC was saying about surface plasma layering I guess .
 
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I have been watching this debate for long and have came to conclusion that Qaher313 supporters like you are uneducated in basic Physics and think that if they throw up name of some exotic tech to propel their super stealth plane, no one would be able to call their bluff.
I have been on this forum long enough to categorize three types of physics:

- Chinese physics
- Iranian physics
- Real physics

I saw 'Chinese physics' exploded when the J-20 came out. Essentially, the laws of nature do not apply to the J-20. Then when this joke of an aircraft came out of Iranian propaganda, I see 'Iranian physics'. Essentially, the laws of nature do not apply to the Qaher 313.

Only use that Plasma could be put to is making a shield of plasma around aircraft as plasma blocks Radio waves, a sound concept on paper until someone points out that Aircraft is not stationary but moving thus requiring huge amount of plasma to be produced every microsecond. something beyond capability of any jet Engine.
The idea of 'plasma stealth' is workable, but not in what these guys think.

Keywords search, just in case you are interested, are 'plasma antenna'.

Plasma antennas strategically placed over the aircraft's surface could -- theoretically -- conduct/absorb enough of the impinging radar signals that there will not be enough energy of the echo to produce any statistically relevant signature on the seeking/receiving end. The idea have been around for as long as there have been 'stealth' aircrafts flying. It is just that shaping was found to be a more effective and quicker way of designing a 'stealth' body.
 
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Your post is enough to judge you uneducation in physics and in conversation. Who is talking about Ion thrust technology?
YOU are, when you brought on ion thruster technology. You are so technically clueless that the NASA source actually made you look foolish.

Can I reach Mach by accelerating just one meter an hr ? Absolutely. It will take a very long time but as acceleration is constant, I will reach Mach, assuming that acceleration is enough to overcome drag. That is an ion engine. The analogy is a bit crude, but for you, it is enough.

What you are saying is that Iranian scientists have jumped several decades ahead of all the major scientific powers in the world with a power supply of hundreds of thousands of kv to produce enough thrust to propel a fully laden jet fighter off the runway. You did not even read your own source.
 
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YOU are, when you brought on ion thruster technology. You are so technically clueless that the NASA source actually made you look foolish.

Can I reach Mach by accelerating just one meter an hr ? Absolutely. It will take a very long time but as acceleration is constant, I will reach Mach, assuming that acceleration is enough to overcome drag. That is an ion engine. The analogy is a bit crude, but for you, it is enough.

What you are saying is that Iranian scientists have jumped several decades ahead of all the major scientific powers in the world with a power supply of hundreds of thousands of kv to produce enough thrust to propel a fully laden jet fighter off the runway. You did not even read your own source.

That is what I meant by posting the article about ion thruster technology, so you got it very wrong as usual; in everyone of my posts I have mentioned that the Iranians never claimed that, but mentioned Electro-ionic systems in the structure of the aircraft, so either you are blind, your mind is or you are just trolling, which are not expected from a self thought big shot like you on this forum. Swallow your pride and read articles and posts where I have explained some possibilities, 'cause in reality, only the Iranian Engineers and scientists know exactly what they were talking about.
And, what about all those Real Physics problems your F-22s and F-35s are facing, Do you think seriously that you own Real physics, think hard and again.
And do not feel foolish and project it on me please. Why you have never answered my proposition for spring controlled fins for missiles, did you feel foolish after your long and ignorant post?
And what about my post # 1207 about the Zeta potential., did you feel foolish not to understand it? So bite your tongue next time and do not associate yourself with high school guys, since that what you'll be taken for too, and that is where I sincerely think your education had stopped.
 
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