Germany looks to develop its own sixth generation stealth fighter jet

[Akasa]

Yes indeed and sorry for the late reply. However I'm right now very much undecided on how earnest I should rate or take these efforts. IMO surely the LW will need a replacement for their Tornado some day and even more they want to keep development capabilities in Germany but given nearly all the latest projects I won't hold my breath how successful it could be !??

Germany alone is IMO impossible most of all to a political un-will for anything related to military; a bigger joint EU-project is also currently unlikely, since several have already decided on the F-35 like Italy and esp. GB, which even more is nearly out - and has just begun a joint study with Japan !! - ... as such it again leaves France, which needs also a replacement for the Mirage 2000 some day, but if both can afford such a complex type, I really don't know.

Deino

France is also launching a 6th-generation fighter program, so Germany may have an opportunity to join that project with its division of Airbus. An indigenous program is also not out of the question if Germany finds the money to undertake it and if the Russian threat does not come to pass.

 

[Penguin]

Airbus DS defining FCAS aircraft requirements with Bundeswehr
Gareth Jennings, Munich - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
20 June 2016
Airbus Defence and Space (DS) is currently working with the German armed forces (Bundeswehr) to identify future threats and capability needs to inform its work on the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), a senior company official told reporters on 20 June.
Speaking at the company's Ottobrun facility near Munich, Alberto Gutierrez, head of the Eurofighter programme, said that Airbus DS and the Bundeswehr are looking at expected operational requirements and the latest technologies that will be available in the 2030-40 timeframe that the FCAS is expected to enter into service.
The FCAS project to replace the German Air Force's Panavia Tornado and to complement the Eurofighter Typhoon manned combat aircraft was first revealed in the Air Capability Strategy Paper released by the German government in January. No details were released at that time, except that the platform might be manned, unmanned, or optionally manned.
Dubbed the Next-Generation Weapon System by Airbus DS, the FCAS will likely be "a system of systems" according to Gutierrez. Given the aircraft's relatively near-term entry-into-service date of between 2030 and 2040, he noted that unmanned technologies will probably not be sufficiently advanced by that time for it to be a completely unmanned solution.
"The German government asked Airbus to consider alternatives for a Tornado replacement that will be complementary with the Eurofighter. In principle, it could be a system of systems - either a manned and unmanned combination. [We have determined that unmanned combat air vehicles] UCAVs will not be at technology state ready by 2030-40 to support Eurofighters. It could be optionally manned, with two crew - one for command and control [and one pilot]," he said.
Gutierrez noted that the tight timelines and the need to keep costs at a minimum means that Airbus DS is looking at incorporating existing technologies and programme structures and partnerships into the project.
http://www.janes.com/article/61628/airbus-ds-defining-fcas-aircraft-requirements-with-bundeswehr

At a briefing in Munich, Airbus Defence & Space unveiled a glimpse of a future strike fighter concept of the 2030-40s designed to replace the Tornado. TIM ROBINSON reports.
With a growing realisation that it needs to think about modernising parts of its aging front-line force, in January, the German Bundeswehr released a White Paper on future plans and proposals. One of these, the Next Generation Weapon System (NGWS) is intended to replace the Tornado which the Luftwaffe may keep in service until 2040 – some 20 years after the RAF will have retired its last GR4.
Among the many and varied presentations covering A400M, MRTT, and light and medium products at the annual Airbus Defence and Space (AirbusDS) TMB (Trade Media Briefing) in Munich this year, also saw the company unveil its concept for a FCAS (Future Combat Air System) to meet the Luftwaffe‘s evolving requirement for the 2030-40 timeframe.
Though it is still early days and the concept is still notional, it did reveal some of the company’s thinking around its FCAS. Interestingly the twin-engine, twin-tail stealth design would be a twin-seat design, according to Alberto Gutierrez, Head of Eurofighter Programme, Airbus DS. The second crewmember may be especially important for the FCAS concept of operations, which would see it operate in a wider battle network, potentially as a command and control asset or UCAV/UAV mission commander.
Another presentation on UAVs during TMB16, also shed light on the FCAS concept of operations. AirbusDS foresee it is not a strike aircraft in itself - but rather part of a 'system of systems' – with this manned strike platform networked with Eurofighters, unmanned bomb or missile 'mules' and even UAV swarms. FCAS, says AirbuDS, is conceptualised to be a platform able to slot into a scalable system.
This vision closely aligns with the latest US Pentagon predictions on future air combat – where manned platforms such as F-35 and B-21 would operate as networked nodes, controlling missile 'truck' UCAVs and drone swarms in contested airspace.
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/airbus-reveals-tornado-successor-concept-for-2040s/

Illustration from AirbusDS shows how the FCAS network would 'scale' upwards.
Note external fuel tanks and Meteors. (AirbusDS).

I am still in shock that after world war 2, why Germans didn't produce fighter planes? you were world leaders in that and US takeover from you guys

German aircraft desisngers e.g. Kurt Tank ended up in Egypt, India or Argentina, that is where the next generation 'German' jets appeared (Helwan HA-300, Hindustan Marut, FMA IAe 33 Pulqui II). Untill Panavia Tornado and Eurofighter Typhoon that is.

Helwan HA-300

Hal Marut

FMA IAe 33 Pulqui

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Fake news.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Fake news.

Why? reasons?

 

[Tshering22]

Your logic seems not correct because the year which they are referring 2030-2040 are same years what US define for her 6th gen

German standards of first generation started from WW2 when Messerschmitt was making deadly fighter jets of that time.

Probably that's why Germans are a generation ahead in their count.

 

[Penguin]

Fake news.

Reported early 2016 by Jane's. You're fake news.

Sixth generation?

A sixth-generation jet fighter is a conceptualized class of fighter aircraft design more advanced than the fifth-generation jet fighters that are currently in service in the United States and in development in other countries. The United States Air Force (USAF) and United States Navy (USN) are anticipated to field their first sixth-generation fighters in the 2025–30 time frame.

Clearly in competition with simultaneous:

New $2.2 billion Anglo-French FCAS phase announced

• 08 March, 2016
• SOURCE: Flightglobal.com
• BY: Beth Stevenson
• London

France and the UK are set to launch a new project under their Future Combat Air System (FCAS) effort that will see unmanned air vehicle prototypes developed under a newly announced £1.54 billion ($2.19 billion) agreement.
UK Prime Minister David Cameron and French President Francois Hollande met in Amiens, France on 3 March, during which they committed funding to build on the programme’s two-year £120 million ($170 million) feasibility study phase, that kicked off in November 2014.
The study is expected to conclude in late 2016, and the development of full-scale prototypes is expected to start the following year.
“We are now looking to transition to the next phase in 2017, which will prepare for the full-scale development of unmanned combat air system (UCAS) operational demonstrators by 2025,” the governments say.
“This demonstration programme, the most advanced of its kind in Europe, will be centred on a versatile UCAS platform that could serve as the basis for a future operational capability beyond 2030.”
The governments intend to invest $2.2 billion in the next stage of the effort and a technical review will be carried out some time around 2020.
“In addition, we will strengthen our collaboration by working together to analyse the future combat air environment, including how manned and unmanned systems might operate together,” they add.
The parties involved in the development are split between British and French industry, and include: BAE Systems, Dassault, Finmeccanica Airborne and Space Systems, Rolls-Royce, Snecma/Safran and Thales.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-22-billion-anglo-french-fcas-phase-announced-422866/

 

[Mr.Department]

Germany and Airbus Defense and Space said they’re in the initial stages of a new program to build the Luftwaffe’s sixth generation fighter, which has been named the Future Combat Air System (FCAS).

That was reported by www.telegiz.com.

Germany has advanced the program to build its own sixth generation stealth jet fighter from concept to the initial working stage.

FCAS will replace the Luftwaffe’s aging fleet of Panavia Tornado fighter bombers and complement the Luftwaffe’s Eurofighter Typhoon air superiority fighters.

FCAS will likely be a twin-engine, twin-tail aircraft piloted by two crewmen. The Bundeswehr (federal German armed forces) plans for FCAS to be operational between 2030 to 2040.

FCAS will be a “system of systems” that combines manned and unmanned aircraft into one operational unit.

“In principle, it could be a system of systems — either a manned and unmanned combination,” said Alberto Gutierrez, head of the Eurofighter program.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

Reported early 2016 by Jane's. You're fake news.

First of all, no need to be such aggressive. I personally doubt this news. There is no article, no news, no topic regarding a new development of a 6th gen fighter jet in the German part of the internet.

 

[Penguin]

First of all, no need to be such aggressive. I personally doubt this news. There is no article, no news, no topic regarding a new development of a 6th gen fighter jet in the German part of the internet.

Janes and Royal Aeronautical Society not good enough for you, eh?
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/germ...tealth-fighter-jet.485724/page-2#post-9330246

Janes reported:
"Speaking at the company's Ottobrun facility near Munich, Alberto Gutierrez, head of the Eurofighter programme, said that Airbus DS and the Bundeswehr are looking at expected operational requirements and the latest technologies that will be available in the 2030-40 timeframe that the FCAS is expected to enter into service."

RAS reported
"Among the many and varied presentations covering A400M, MRTT, and light and medium products at the annual Airbus Defence and Space (AirbusDS) TMB (Trade Media Briefing) in Munich this year, also saw the company unveil its concept for a FCAS (Future Combat Air System) to meet the Luftwaffe‘s evolving requirement for the 2030-40 timeframe.

The slide posted earlier, from http://defence-blog.com/news/german...own-sixth-generation-stealth-fighter-jet.html read TMB16

This is TMB16 program:

Airbus Defense and Space, TMB16 – Execution of Strategy Driven by Focus on Services
Mr. Dirk Hoke, CEO Airbus DS, addressed journalists who gathered from across globe at the annual Airbus Defence & Space (DS) Trade Media Briefing 2016 (TMB16) at the Airbus Defence & Space Head Quarters in Ottobrunn, Germany. Defence Turkey Magazine attended the two-day event on 20 - 21 June 2016 which included presentations on the company’s strategy, successes, technology solutions of the future. Presenters during the two day event also included; Mr. Jean Pierre Talamoni - Head of Sales & Marketing, Airbus DS, Mr. Miquel Angel Morell - Head of Engineering, Jana Rosenmann – Head of Unmanned Aerial Systems, Fernando Ciria - Head of Marketing, Tactical Airlifters & ISR, Stephan Miegel - Head of Military Aircraft Services, Mr. Alberto Gutierrez - Head of Eurofighter Program, Fernando Alonso - Head of Military Aircraft, Jeronimo Amador - Head of Marketing MRTT & Other Airbus Derivatives, Mark Henning - H145 Program Governmental business, Mr. Christian Fanchini - Senior Operational Marketing Manager and Mr. Ian Morris - VP Head of defense business Airbus Helicopters UK. The event concluded with a media tour the Helicopter facility at Donauwörth, 120km Northwest of Munich; journalists were provided with an opportunity to get an up-close look and access to the latest developments.
http://www.defenceturkey.com/en/con...driven-by-focus-on-services-2399#.WNllKqKkKUk

02 February 2016
A New European Military Order?
...
A Military Aviation Strategy Paper (MASP) published by the German MoD mid-January stated that the conclusion of a contract is expected for 2018 and helicopter deliveries should start in 2022. According to the paper, the multirole helicopter should increase the air mobility of the ground forces and contribute to MEDEVAC, as well as support of SOF and to personnel recovery missions.
This MASP also highlights that a next-generation weapon system (NextGenWS), complementary to the Eurofighter TYPHOON, will be developed as successor to the TORNADO, which is specialised for ground attack. The NextGenWS might be unmanned, manned or optionally manned, the paper states. A more precise definition will be carried out after further analysis.

In order to preserve the warfare capabilities of the Luftwaffe, the NextGenWS should enter service no later than when the TORNADO is taken out of operations, which, according to current planning, will fly until the middle of the next decade. Sidenote: Mid-January, the Luftwaffe was hit with a software bug that causes its TORNADO's cockpit lighting to shine too bright, which is blinding pilots and preventing them from flying at night. Since the start of 2016, six TORNADOs have been used on reconnaissance missions to Syria in the fight against IS, just not at night after being hampered by a software update issue. Ever since the planes were upgraded to its new ASSTA-3 software, pilots have complained that at night the cockpit reflects so much bright light they cannot see, according to media sources. A spokesperson for the Luftwaffe revealed they are working on a timely solution. End Sidenote.

Also in planning is a so-called Future Combat Air System (FCAS), which the MASP describes as a system-of-systems, incorporating capabilities of existing aircraft, such as EUROFIGHTER, TORNADO, and the combat helicopter TIGER, but also future weapon systems, such as a MALE UAS and the NextGenWS.

The MoD intends to define conceptual ideas and operational requirements for an FCAS and a NextGenWS in 2016. These are to serve as a basis for multilateral cooperation and the examination of common requirements and technological feasibility.

According to the paper, the realisation of the NextGenWS and the FCAS has to be made with partner nations in a European context, because a purely national approach to develop weapon systems of this complexity is deemed impossible. The ministry wants to initiate a dialogue in Europe soon on common objectives, lines of development and options for action.
http://www.miltechmag.com/2016/02/a-new-european-military-order.html
The journal Military Technology is published by Monch Publishing group
www.monch.com

NOTE: NextGenWS is replacement aircraft. It is part of FCAS 'system of systems'

Mönch Publishing Group MANAGEMENT
Bad Neuenahr – Ahrweiler, GERMANY
http://www.monch.com/mpg/contact.html

EDITORIAL STAFF
Military Technology
Editor-in-Chief – Mönch Editorial Director

Dennis-Peter Merklinghaus
Christine-Demmer-Straße 7, 53474 Bad Neuenahr – Ahrweiler, Germany
Phone: +49 2641 3703 – 0
Fax: +49 2641 3703 - 199

See https://www.blogger.com/profile/05787323831454495849

Air Power Development Strategy 2016

p4 (ch1)
The Air Power Development Strategy is a document issued by the Federal Ministry of Defence (FMoD). It supplements the Aviation Strategy of the Federal Government in the field of military aviation. While the Aviation Strategy of the Federal Government underlines the importance of the German aviation industry for the economy, the Air the mission of the Bundeswehr on the basis of political requirements and ensuring the performance of the resulting tasks and capability development in the third dimension by aircraft.

p9 (ch4)
The Strategy thus particularly emphasises the close connection between the multinational orientation of the Bundeswehr and the definition of a Future Combat Air System (FCAS). Both elements, i.e. long-term partnerships with other nations for sharing and developing capabilities in the air dimension and the organisation of the FCAS are, for the Bundeswehr with its multinational approach, closely connected and of strategic relevance for medium- to long-term decisions about capabilities and solutions

p10 (ch4)
b) Strategic Vectors
Technological Capabilities and Industrial Resources The strategy for further developing capabilities, for example third-generation (TORNADO) and fourth-generation (EUROFIGHTER) tactical combat aircraft, in an integrated Future Combat Air System (FCAS) with various kinds of possible new platforms (e.g. Next Generation Weapon System (NextGenWS)) has a considerable influence on the required technological capabilities and industrial resources in the air dimension.
Parallel operation of two different combat aircraft types with partially overlapping capabilities ensures operational flexibility and offers an opportunity to successively replace aircraft types without temporarily losing important capabilities.
The need for key defence industrial technologies and industrial resources will therefore be determined in the foreseeable future by the capabilities required in the FCAS. For this reason, selected key national defence industrial technologies should be promoted for the further technological development of the EUROFIGHTER and the maturation of technology for a Next Generation Weapon System (NextGenWS). On account of the increasing importance of cyberspace, this explicitly includes key technologies in the fields of information technology and cyber power

some 25 more FCAS references and 12 more NextGenWS references in this document.....

https://www.bmvg.de/resource/resour...1-MilitaerischeLuftfahrt-Screen-ENG-final.pdf.

www.bmvg.de > website of: Bundesministerium der Verteidigung

First of all, no need to be such aggressive. I personally doubt this news. There is no article, no news, no topic regarding a new development of a 6th gen fighter jet in the German part of the internet.

Happy now?

 

[randomradio]

Yes indeed and sorry for the late reply. However I'm right now very much undecided on how earnest I should rate or take these efforts. IMO surely the LW will need a replacement for their Tornado some day and even more they want to keep development capabilities in Germany but given nearly all the latest projects I won't hold my breath how successful it could be !??

Germany alone is IMO impossible most of all to a political un-will for anything related to military; a bigger joint EU-project is also currently unlikely, since several have already decided on the F-35 like Italy and esp. GB, which even more is nearly out - and has just begun a joint study with Japan !! - ... as such it again leaves France, which needs also a replacement for the Mirage 2000 some day, but if both can afford such a complex type, I really don't know.

Deino

We have been discussing this for a year in other forums. FCAS is a joint French-UK project.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-22-billion-anglo-french-fcas-phase-announced-422866/

Now Germany has officially announced its participation.

FCAS is meant to be designed as a strike aircraft that will replace the Tornado and M-2000.

Post WW II Germany was divided, just a reminder. In that, Germany served as the most prominent symbol of the European side of the Cold War. To increase the odds of survival and to speed things up, joint ventures made sense, so West Germany, Italy, and the UK created the Panavia Tornado. So it is not as if the Germans somehow 'lost' the intellectual might to make good or even great aircrafts again.

I maybe wrong, but I would dare guess why Germany have a reduced participation in aviation, especially military aviation, is similar to Japan -- that of being a co-starter of a world war. Am sure it is a complex issue of national guilt (?) and foreign suspicions of motives. Nevertheless, I have no doubt that if the Germans put their minds to it, whatever they come up with will be impressive and quickly to the fore.

None of these. German R&D in aerospace technology is lacking, and their numbers requirement and budget is smaller than necessary for such large projects.

FCAS is a French project. Then the British got involved, now the Germans. So Germany is going to be a minor participant, the major technologies will come from the other two countries. The TD's gonna be flying in 2025.

http://www.janes.com/article/62191/farnborough-2016-fcas-set-to-deliver-national-variants
The Anglo/French Future Combat Air Systems (FCAS) programme will likely see two variants of a base aircraft developed and delivered - one to each partner.

It's gonna be a family of manned and unmanned systems, with a number of unmanned aircraft under the control of one or two manned aircraft in a group.

Basically, the French have decided on three aircraft.

- FCAS as next generation strike. Its RCS is apparently smaller than a dragonfly's. It will replace the Tornado and M-2000.

- Rafale-NG as a post 2030 fighter. If India and France get a good rapport going through the Rafale deal, the DGA may decide on India's AMCA as their new fighter.

- And a new space or near-space fighter for aerospace superiority(new term) to replace the Rafale.

======================
X posting halloweene's posts.

Aug 2016
About FCAS, there shouldn't be much diference. Btw, Germany should soon join, but i guess after definition phase.

Same date-- New aircraft:
Trappier said twice it should be developed now and space capable

 

[Penguin]

We have been discussing this for a year in other forums. FCAS is a joint French-UK project.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/new-22-billion-anglo-french-fcas-phase-announced-422866/

Now Germany has officially announced its participation.

FCAS is meant to be designed as a strike aircraft that will replace the Tornado and M-2000.

If you read the above properly, NextGenWS is a strike aircraft (which may see different versions, including manned and unmanned) and it will be part of the system-of-systems called FCAS (i.e. FCAS is more than a single aircraft or even a pair of UCAV designs)

 

[randomradio]

If you read the above properly, NextGenWS is a strike aircraft (which may see different versions, including manned and unmanned) and it will be part of the system-of-systems called FCAS (i.e. FCAS is more than a single aircraft or even a pair of UCAV designs)

That's right. My post says this:
It's gonna be a family of manned and unmanned systems, with a number of unmanned aircraft under the control of one or two manned aircraft in a group.

You can bring in a lot of other support infrastructure like ground control, satellites, other aircraft, UAVs and UCAVs, ships etc, but the program itself will see the creation of manned and unmanned fighters, and they will obviously be the most expensive and 'sexy' aspect of the program. We can talk about these other aspects after the developers themselves have decided on those. There's no hurry, 2016 to 2030.

 

[XDescendantX]

Is Germany Getting Ready to Build Its Very Own Stealth Fighter?

Dave Majumdar
March 24, 2017

Germany and Airbus Defense and Space are working on the initial stages of a new program to replace Berlin’s long-serving fleet of the Panavia Tornado bombers and complement the Luftwaffe’s Eurofighter Typhoon air superiority fighters.

The Future Combat Air System (FCAS)—as the Bundeswehr program is called—would likely be a system of systems that combines manned and unmanned elements. According to a report in Jane’s, the Bundeswehr’s requirements are aiming for the FCAS to be operational in the 2030-2040 time frame. Thus, Airbus is focusing on the best technologies that would available for an aircraft that could be ready by then.

"The German government asked Airbus to consider alternatives for a Tornado replacement that will be complementary with the Eurofighter,” Alberto Gutierrez, head of the Eurofighter program told my former colleague Gareth Jennings last year.

“In principle, it could be a system of systems - either a manned and unmanned combination. [We have determined that unmanned combat air vehicles] UCAVs will not be at technology state ready by 2030-40 to support Eurofighters. It could be optionally manned, with two crew - one for command and control [and one pilot].”

Because of the relatively short timelines involved, the Germans will try to use as many existing technologies as possible for their program. Early concept drawing of the FCAS seem to indicate that the new German aircraft will be twin-engine stealth aircraft similar in concept to other fifth-generation fighters that are starting to emerge around the world.

It’s not clear if the Germans will team up with other European nations to develop the FCAS or even if the Bundestag will appropriate enough money to see the program through to fruition, but Berlin does have the technical wherewithal to develop its own aircraft. The German aerospace industry has not produced a full-scale combat aircraft since the end of the Second World War, but the country has an advanced industrial base and could reconstitute such a capability relatively quickly. It’s really just a matter of if Germany wants to spend more money on defense.

Dave Majumdar is the defense editor for the National Interest.
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...eady-build-its-very-own-stealth-fighter-19911

 

[theman111]

she can she have big economy and alot of money but no experince of biulding fighters

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

she can she have big economy and alot of money but no experince of biulding fighters

And Germany can have a big economy and a lot of money AND
experience from the Tornado, Eurofighter, X-31 and Barracuda UCAV.