Fury in China After an Outspoken Teacher Disappears

[Goritoes]

I think my Ex probably went to China, she got missing as well

 

[Chak Bamu]

Real or fake news aside. Here is the back ground of the story.

Several months ago, A video drove Chinese netizens angry. In which a pro Japan teacher denied victims number of Nanjing massacre in class and told her students "We should introspect why the war happened". Among all criticisms, some people supported this teacher. This Li Tiantian is one of the supporters.

This is not about freedom of speech. This is like a Jew supports Nazi. A Muslim supports Israel.

My friend, Sheikh Mujiburrehman claimed that 3,000,000 civilians were killed in East Pakistan during unrest/civil war in 1971 that resulted in creation of Bangladesh. There were people within Bangladesh who challenged this outrageous figure. Some of them were put to death just recently. Sharmila Bose, an Indian researcher of Bengali ethnicity wrote a book called "Dead Reckoning" in which she challenged this figure and concluded that the figure had been vastly overstated. Now if I consider your point of view correct, then Bangladesh did the right thing by killing the critics of that outrageous number. If I be objective then your point of view is obviously wrong. Official numbers are not sacred. They can and should be challenged. If official numbers had not been sacred, ten million Chinese would not have died of starvation. Official numbers sometimes precipitate great tragedies. That is why it is important to understand that "Dissent is Patriotic" because it keeps governments from making big & costly mistakes.

Look, no one can defend what happened in Nanjing or in East Pakistan. But no one can also say that any set of numbers are sacred. People who understand the value of human life know that every life is important and that a number should not mean that a citizen should die for disagreeing with it. Ultra nationalists do not understand this. For them official numbers are sacred.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Not going to happen. China has a different political system. With a different political system it will have different rules. It's a one party state. You cannot undermine it's power. Or there will be chaos.

So far it's done a good job. It's working very well. Let's keep it that way.

No system is perfect. Each system is suited to certain conditions and fails in adverse conditions. Even democracies sometimes devolved into dictatorships when compelled by circumstances. It happened in ancient times in Rome. It happened in ancient Greece also. But then the good people who understood this truth gave up dictatorial powers to resume democracy - an example that immediately comes to mind is that of Cincinnatus of Rome, & George Washington of USA. In Pakistan Z. A. Bhutto also did the same when once 1973 Constitution was promulgated (though he was a highly autocratic politician who caused his own downfall within few years).

So, please understand that as they say "one size does not fit all", it is also true that "one size does not fit all the time".

People/systems who amass power are loathe to give it up. An example is Egypt. The Egyptian army killed nearly a thousand people on 14 August 2013 in order to grab power & end nascent democracy because the generals had grown so used to absolute power that they could not stay subservient to civilians - even someone with a PhD & a good political career. Now if you were to ask Egyptian government (dominated by army) about what system is best for Egypt, they would naturally say that a system in which a general wields state power is the best system. The same may be your case.

Learn a bit from Koreans, perhaps, if nationalist ego does not get in the way?

 

[araz]

Look buddy - I am a friend. I see trends & I hope Chinese adapt. The old approach plus an army of apologists just would not cut it anymore.

Not all critics are mad. Many are actually patriotic. I say this because I am a very strong critic of Army's political role in politics in Pakistan. Some ultra-nationalists may consider me unpatriotic, but I have constitutional guarantees of freedom (which may or may not work). So, I am not a psychiatric patient but actually a patriot. It is the same everywhere, including China. Repeat after me "Dissent is patriotic"

While I fully agree and support your point of view, there has been an increased western focus on all the faults within the Chinese system. This seems to point to an extension of western policy of bybrid warfare to exert pressure on the Chinese government.
If there are faults and fully agree the faults lie on both sides( more or less can be debated), and certain bits of news seem dubious one needs to be careless. 30 years of life in the West has taught me that the grass remain equally filthy which ever side you look at.
From the Chinese perspective we do not know anything about this lady and the poor thing might have gone unstable. Equally there maybe repercussions for criticizing the government. We simply do not know.
From the Western perspective it was easy to criticize the khashugji murder in Turkey however there was no focus on some shady doings on the political front which were equally vile.
The media in the West is a lot more open but equally more prone to getting used as an extension of government policy.
This is a dog eat dog world so one needs to be careful.
A

 

[kankan326]

My friend, Sheikh Mujiburrehman claimed that 3,000,000 civilians were killed in East Pakistan during unrest/civil war in 1971 that resulted in creation of Bangladesh. There were people within Bangladesh who challenged this outrageous figure. Some of them were put to death just recently. Sharmila Bose, an Indian researcher of Bengali ethnicity wrote a book called "Dead Reckoning" in which she challenged this figure and concluded that the figure had been vastly overstated. Now if I consider your point of view correct, then Bangladesh did the right thing by killing the critics of that outrageous number. If I be objective then your point of view is obviously wrong. Official numbers are not sacred. They can and should be challenged. If official numbers had not been sacred, ten million Chinese would not have died of starvation. Official numbers sometimes precipitate great tragedies. That is why it is important to understand that "Dissent is Patriotic" because it keeps governments from making big & costly mistakes.

Look, no one can defend what happened in Nanjing or in East Pakistan. But no one can also say that any set of numbers are sacred. People who understand the value of human life know that every life is important and that a number should not mean that a citizen should die for disagreeing with it. Ultra nationalists do not understand this. For them official numbers are sacred.

Denying victims number of Nanjing massacre has special political meaning in China. Which you may not know. Unlike Germany, Japan never apologized for its war crimes. Japanese Empire supporters are still very active today. Japanese politicians keep visiting the Yasukuni war shrine every year. The other important way they show their politcal attitude is denying Nanjing massacre. Which is the reason why Chinese are so sensitive to any opinion related to that.

East Pakistan case is civil war as you said.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Denying victims number of Nanjing massacre has special political meaning in China. Which you may not know. Unlike Germany, Japan never apologized for its war crimes. Japanese Empire supporters are still very active today. Japanese politicians keep visiting the Yasukuni war shrine every year. The other important way they show their politcal attitude is denying Nanjing massacre. Which is the reason why Chinese are so sensitive to any opinion related to that.

East Pakistan case is civil war as you said.

But estimating number of victims should not and does not mean denial - and that was my point. Anyone who comes up with spurious & motivated arguments can be dismissed as irrelevant. China is a superpower while Japan is not. Being a superpower means that you should be secure in your status. Getting angry at criticism shows weakness.

Whether it be Jews & Gypsies killed by Nazis, Chinese civilians killed by Japan, or any other such horror, there is no excuse for such mass scale murder. Japan should apologize for killing so many Chinese people. All the former Colonists must apologize to their victims.

 

[kankan326]

But estimating number of victims should not and does not mean denial - and that was my point. Anyone who comes up with spurious & motivated arguments can be dismissed as irrelevant. China is a superpower while Japan is not. Being a superpower means that you should be secure in your status. Getting angry at criticism shows weakness.

Whether it be Jews & Gypsies killed by Nazis, Chinese civilians killed by Japan, or any other such horror, there is no excuse for such mass scale murder. Japan should apologize for killing so many Chinese people. All the former Colonists must apologize to their victims.

When a thing becomes a political signal, it contains much more contents than the thing itself. Those who criticized how Chinese suppressed expression on Nanjing massacre definitely don't know Chinese

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

But estimating number of victims should not and does not mean denial - and that was my point. Anyone who comes up with spurious & motivated arguments can be dismissed as irrelevant. China is a superpower while Japan is not. Being a superpower means that you should be secure in your status. Getting angry at criticism shows weakness.

Whether it be Jews & Gypsies killed by Nazis, Chinese civilians killed by Japan, or any other such horror, there is no excuse for such mass scale murder. Japan should apologize for killing so many Chinese people. All the former Colonists must apologize to their victims.

If being a superpower means you simply accept questioning of your status and your allies status because to not do so is a sign of insecurity, why does US veto every single UN resolution that even verbally criticizes Israel?

I mean why can't the US be secure in its status? Why does it get so angry at criticism of some minor ally with ~10 million population and GDP ~few billion USD to the degree that it uses one of the strongest tools in diplomacy? How does this fact reconcile with your assertion that being angry at criticism = weakness?

 

[Beast]

If being a superpower means you simply accept questioning of your status and your allies status because to not do so is a sign of insecurity, why does US veto every single UN resolution that even verbally criticizes Israel?

I mean why can't the US be secure in its status? Why does it get so angry at criticism of some minor ally with ~10 million population and GDP ~few billion USD to the degree that it uses one of the strongest tools in diplomacy? How does this fact reconcile with your assertion that being angry at criticism = weakness?

Not to mention EU makes anti-Semitism and rejection of holocaust a crime. So if China makes rejection of Nanjing Massacres a criminal act, I guess nobody can criticize China if its ok for EU for holocaust.

 

[Nan Yang]

No system is perfect. Each system is suited to certain conditions and fails in adverse conditions. Even democracies sometimes devolved into dictatorships when compelled by circumstances. It happened in ancient times in Rome. It happened in ancient Greece also. But then the good people who understood this truth gave up dictatorial powers to resume democracy - an example that immediately comes to mind is that of Cincinnatus of Rome, & George Washington of USA. In Pakistan Z. A. Bhutto also did the same when once 1973 Constitution was promulgated (though he was a highly autocratic politician who caused his own downfall within few years).

So, please understand that as they say "one size does not fit all", it is also true that "one size does not fit all the time".

People/systems who amass power are loathe to give it up. An example is Egypt. The Egyptian army killed nearly a thousand people on 14 August 2013 in order to grab power & end nascent democracy because the generals had grown so used to absolute power that they could not stay subservient to civilians - even someone with a PhD & a good political career. Now if you were to ask Egyptian government (dominated by army) about what system is best for Egypt, they would naturally say that a system in which a general wields state power is the best system. The same may be your case.

Learn a bit from Koreans, perhaps, if nationalist ego does not get in the way?

Your views are very difficult for me to understand.

 

[Chak Bamu]

If being a superpower means you simply accept questioning of your status and your allies status because to not do so is a sign of insecurity, why does US veto every single UN resolution that even verbally criticizes Israel?

I mean why can't the US be secure in its status? Why does it get so angry at criticism of some minor ally with ~10 million population and GDP ~few billion USD to the degree that it uses one of the strongest tools in diplomacy? How does this fact reconcile with your assertion that being angry at criticism = weakness?

China is a unique case. It is a civilization. The show of insecurity is an aberration in long-term. It will pass.

Your views are very difficult for me to understand.

I am sorry. All I am trying to say is that one size does not fit all the time. In other words, Chinese system should evolve because the circumstances have changed greatly.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

China is a unique case. It is a civilization. The show of insecurity is an aberration in long-term. It will pass.


I am sorry. All I am trying to say is that one size does not fit all the time. In other words, Chinese system should evolve because the circumstances have changed greatly.

US is also a civilization. they claim to be the inheritors of Greece, Rome, Britain, and the natural leader of the entire west.

So why are they so angry about verbal criticism at a non-western minor ally?

In fact their western allies have also criminalized questioning many aspects of WW2. By your logic why don't they accept criticism? Why aren't they confident in questioning 'official numbers'?

 

[Beast]

China is a unique case. It is a civilization. The show of insecurity is an aberration in long-term. It will pass.


I am sorry. All I am trying to say is that one size does not fit all the time. In other words, Chinese system should evolve because the circumstances have changed greatly.

It is a show case of unity. A unity that make China so great. I know Pakistan need many alternate voices. There are deep corruption in the system that need people to speak up.

China used to go thru what Pakistan experience but ever since Xi is in power. Corruption are mostly wiped out. Unequally are slowly reduced. The motto of share of wealth are heavily promoted. Chinese citizen living in remote area are given heavy subsidized and assist from central government. Now for China is not anymore of alternative voice but more of unity against outside forces who used freedom as excuse to undermine rising China.

 

[Chak Bamu]

It is a show case of unity. A unity that make China so great. I know Pakistan need many alternate voices. There are deep corruption in the system that need people to speak up.

China used to go thru what Pakistan experience but ever since Xi is in power. Corruption are mostly wiped out. Unequally are slowly reduced. The motto of share of wealth are heavily promoted. Chinese citizen living in remote area are given heavy subsidized and assist from central government. Now for China is not anymore of alternative voice but more of unity against outside forces who used freedom as excuse to undermine rising China.

Nobody can harm China like in 19th & early 20th Century. I understand the sensitivities involved.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Nobody can harm China like in 19th & early 20th Century. I understand the sensitivities involved.

easy for you to say. There has never been a manifesto written about total conquest of Pakistan.