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Freedom of speech is 'universal' right, Michelle Obama tells China

This is not a contest of who spent how much time where, but who can support their arguments with specific references, and who is just blowing smoke.

Readers can judge for themselves on that score.
And when the readers see you relatively silent on China's oppression of basic human rights -- the ones in the US Constitution that you claimed to admire and weeps for Snowden so much -- they can judge for themselves on that score.
 
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Freedom of speech means that while she is in China pointing her finger her hubby is telling lies in Europe in front of a selected group of claqueurs. Last week inn Bruxells, Obama had the cheek to say that what Russia did in Crimea was far worse than the Iraq invasion and he was also taking about a referendum in Kosovo, which never was considered and never took place.
 
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you come in and post the amendment 4th as a basis of what you agreed with snowden on... now few pages later you deny it? ROFL READ post#6 where you said this

If you stop laughing for a second, you will realize that anyone who can read English will be laughing AT you, not WITH you.
 
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If you stop laughing for a second, you will realize that anyone who can read English will be laughing AT you, not WITH you.

right so, when shown proof of what you now deny as posting... you have nothing to say but make a generic statement :lol:
 
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right so, when shown proof of what you now deny as posting... you have nothing to say but make a generic statement :lol:
The man is intellectually dishonest. We already know that.

He tried to defend his argument by saying that Snowden never made the case that Snowden's own privacy were violated, which is absurd on its own face.

Whistleblowers do not act the way they do without having intense personal distaste and PERSONAL CONNECTION to the alleged violation. Take abuses of taxpayer money, for example. If we take any individual case of abuse/misuse of taxpayer money, each one of our share would be several digits behind the decimal point. Negligible, for all intended purposes. Does not affect my ability to put gas in my cars or food on my table. But it is the principle of it that compelled all taxpayers shares the same distaste and have their own degrees of personal affront to the individual case.

If we assume that Snowden acted PURELY out of altruism, then we have to agree that Snowden took what the NSA did -- VERY PERSONALLY. It does not matter if the NSA electronically 'watched' Snowden himself or not. Snowden took personal affront at the latitude and depth of what the NSA was LEGALLY allowed to do and that allowance was not made public for the people to either agree or disagree.

Mr. D's posts 6 and 102 simply do not jive at the principle level. But we should not be surprised that this inconsistency would be typical of typical anti-US critics. No matter how much they claimed to 'admire' the US but hate the US government, sooner or later their arguments will reveal their true selves.
 
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Whistleblowers do not act the way they do without having intense personal distaste and PERSONAL CONNECTION to the alleged violation.

Why do you insist on exposing yourself once again as an ignoramus?

Your understanding of whistleblowers is about as comical as your understanding of other matters on the subject.

The issue is not whether Snowden felt strongly about the matter. Of course he felt strongly; all whistleblowers feel strongly about their matter. That's why they blow the whistle. The allegation by your clueless buddy is that Snowden claimed a personal violation of his own Fourth Amendment rights by the NSA, and that simply is not the case.

Let me give readers another example to illustrate the extent of your cluelessness. This is for readers since I don't expect you -- or your buddy-in-cluelessness -- to understand any of this.

Ranbaxy whistleblower reveals how he exposed massive pharmaceutical fraud - CBS News

The whistleblower in this case did not claim that he personally was harmed by the generic drugs. He claimed that the company's conduct was resulting in significant public harm and/or they violated laws.

There is absolutely NOTHING that says that a whistleblower has to be personally affected by the misconduct they report.

the NSA was LEGALLY allowed to do

Oh, dear Lord!
Not this again!

Let's remind the readers why you have ZERO understanding of the US legal framework.

Just because a law exists on the books means jack. Any citizen can challenge the constitutionality of the law, and Snowden's claim is precisely that whatever legal cover the NSA had for its actions did not conform to the protections of the Fourth Amendment.

It's a continuing hilarity that, after all these pages, you don't even understand that fundamental issue.


Yawn.

When all else fails, and you lose an argument, it's back to the old "you hate our freedoms"...
 
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Why do you insist on exposing yourself once again as an ignoramus?

Your understanding of whistleblowers is about as comical as your understanding of other matters on the subject.

The issue is not whether Snowden felt strongly about the matter. Of course he felt strongly; all whistleblowers feel strongly about their matter. That's why they blow the whistle. The allegation by your clueless buddy is that Snowden claimed a personal violation of his own Fourth Amendment rights by the NSA, and that simply is not the case.

Let me give readers another example to illustrate the extent of your cluelessness. This is for readers since I don't expect you -- or your buddy-in-cluelessness -- to understand any of this.

Ranbaxy whistleblower reveals how he exposed massive pharmaceutical fraud - CBS News

The whistleblower in this case did not claim that he personally was harmed by the generic drugs. He claimed that the company's conduct was resulting in significant public harm and/or they violated laws.

There is absolutely NOTHING that says that a whistleblower has to be personally affected by the misconduct they report. And nowhere did Snowden claim that his personal Fourth Amendment rights were directly violated by the NSA.
Keep digging...

Health and healthcare is an intensely personal issue. Dinesh Thakur or any of us is just one degree away from taking a drug, be it for a simple headache or for diabetes. So no, Thakur does not have to be personally affected, but I said PERSONAL CONNECTION and Thakur was a chemical engineer for Ranbaxy, the company that he exposed. Other than family relations, it is more difficult to find any relationship closer than employment. If you actually watched the video interview, Thakur mentioned his conscience.

Snowden felt his and his fellow Americans' 4th Amendment rights were at least threatened, if not outright violated. That was a PERSONAL CONNECTION. So again, your posts 6 and 102 simply does not support each other.
 
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Keep digging...

The only one digging a hole and exposing their desperation is YOU

You guys keep jumping from issue to issue, desperately hoping to score a hit, and you get exposed as clueless clowns over and over.

Now you have been reduced to claiming that Snowden felt strongly about the Fourth Amendment.

Duh! Of course he did. Where did anyone deny it?

The claim by your side, once again to remind readers of your desperation, is why Snowden hasn't filed a court case for a direct, personal violation of his own rights under the Fourth.

The answer is that it is irrelevant to his whistleblowing claims.

Thakur did not sue Ranbaxy for personal injury due to their generic drugs. That has nothing whatsoever to do with his whistleblowing claims.
 
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Well, in this case I would say that this constant and self-serving self-righteousness of the West (especially the US) impresses no one.

It is used selectively and to blatantly intervene in the domestic issues of sovereign countries.

Their own sense of the Western culture and values being somehow "universal" and using them to further their interests is not hidden from anyone.

So they may blow their trumpet but it is losing its effectiveness every passing day.
Anyone trying to make Indian values, like the caste system, universal ?
 
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The only one digging a hole and exposing their desperation is YOU

You guys keep jumping from issue to issue, desperately hoping to score a hit, and you get exposed as clueless clowns over and over.

Now you have been reduced to claiming that Snowden felt strongly about the Fourth Amendment.

Duh! Of course he did. Where did anyone deny it?

The claim by your side, once again to remind readers of your desperation, is why Snowden hasn't filed a court case for a direct, personal violation of his own rights under the Fourth.

The answer is that it is irrelevant to his whistleblowing claims.

Thakur did not sue Ranbaxy for personal injury due to their generic drugs. That has nothing whatsoever to do with his whistleblowing claims.
You are confused between being 'personally affected' and 'MATERIALLY AFFECTED'.

I have personal connections with family members but not material and/or physical connections with them since most lives across the country.

Take the 2nd Amendment, for example. I know plenty of people who are NOT gun owners but because the US Constitution is such a central part of American society, these people strongly feel they have personal connections to the 2nd Amendment without have any material connections, ie owning a gun, to the 2nd Amendment. Any talk about repealing or even curtailing the freedom contained within the 2nd will get them wary.

In order to be a whistleblower, not only must you be physically connected to the organization you must be ideologically and morally connected to that organization in some ways. Even better, you should have at least well grounded, if not intimate, knowledge of what the organization stands for and does. Only then can you identify ideological/moral deviations from the organization's mission statement and expose those wrongdoings.

So you are wrong about Snowden not being personally affected by the NSA's deviation. Snowden was not materially affected, such as his home computers were not broken into, his mail perused, his friends and family members questioned, and himself was followed. But precisely because how the US Constitution is the core of his association with the US, same as how the US Constitution is the core of my association with the US, same as how President Obama is associated, or B43, or even death row prisoners down in Texas, all of us are personally affected without being materially affected.
 
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You are confused between being 'personally affected' and 'MATERIALLY AFFECTED'.

No.

You are showing your desperation yet again.

All you are saying by 'personally affected' is that Snowden felt strongly about the Fourth Amendment.

Like I wrote above: duh! yeah!

That has NOTHING whatsoever to do with your guys' claim that, since he hasn't filed a court case for violation of his Fourth, his whistleblowing claims are discredited. That's nonsense.

Everything else you wrote is pure entertainment for the readers.
 
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No.

You are showing your desperation yet again.

All you are saying by 'personally affected' is that Snowden felt strongly about the Fourth Amendment.

Like I wrote above: duh! yeah!

That has NOTHING whatsoever to do with your guys' claim that, since he hasn't filed a court case for violation of his Fourth, his whistleblowing claims are discredited. That's nonsense.

Everything else you wrote is pure entertainment for the readers.
Actually, Snowden would have an even stronger case for himself if he had made a court case out of it.

What make his whistleblower status difficult to swallow, even by past NSA whistleblowers, is the deceptions of his colleagues in order to gain unauthorized access to their data and work. No amount of mental gymnastics by you or anyone could erase that wrong. Then he fled with his cache of information to dictatorships. Your tears for him about his legal difficulties do not stand examination in that if Snowden was aware of past issues with other NSA whistleblowers, he and his legal team would have found ways to protect him, best of all: resign from the NSA. Sever all legal relationships with the NSA in any way, direct or indirect.

Now, precisely because he fled to dictatorships and gave them what he know about what the NSA does and how it does them, he will forever be questioned about his loyalty and egomania. So while we can thank him for showing us where the NSA deviated from its original mission, abetted by incompetent oversight, his giving to our enemies our secrets does indeed put his whistleblower status in question.

You are STILL wrong. :lol:
 
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What make his whistleblower status difficult to swallow, even by past NSA whistleblowers, is the deceptions of his colleagues in order to gain unauthorized access to their data and work. No amount of mental gymnastics by you or anyone could erase that wrong. Then he fled with his cache of information to dictatorships. Your tears for him about his legal difficulties do not stand examination in that if Snowden was aware of past issues with other NSA whistleblowers, he and his legal team would have found ways to protect him, best of all: resign from the NSA. Sever all legal relationships with the NSA in any way, direct or indirect.

Now, precisely because he fled to dictatorships and gave them what he know about what the NSA does and how it does them, he will forever be questioned about his loyalty and egomania. So while we can thank him for showing us where the NSA deviated from its original mission, abetted by incompetent oversight, his giving to our enemies our secrets does indeed put his whistleblower status in question.

All you are doing now is rehashing your previous posts which have been addressed already -- not just by me, but by legal scholars.

Freedom of speech is 'universal' right, Michelle Obama tells China | Page 5

When you take on the Federal government, there are very few safe havens.

P.S. About fleeing to X country, I am not defending that aspect of his behavior. I am defending his decision to expose the NSA and, given what happened to other whistleblowers, his decision to avoid the reach of US jurisdiction and extradition is understandable.
 
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Just bugger off...
The US leads the West, and this is what we exports as to be 'universal':

- All persons are created equal
- All have the freedom of speech.
- All have the freedom of association.
- All have the freedom of religion.
- All have the right to make money to make his or her life better.

Is there anything that prevents India from exporting Indian values ? Of course not. It is a matter of PR. All you have to do is explain to Westerners on why it is better for some of them to belong to a caste that is inferior to other castes and that such status will be transferable to their children to infinity. You may need to go violent on that, meaning creating the Hindu version of jihadism and kill anyone who disagree with you.

But if you cannot convince so much of the world that the Indian version of life is superior to what the Westerners exported, may be YOU should bugger off.

All you are doing now is rehashing your previous posts which have been addressed already -- not just by me, but by legal scholars.

Freedom of speech is 'universal' right, Michelle Obama tells China | Page 5

When you take on the Federal government, there are very few safe havens.
And THAT has been addressed as well...

Why Edward Snowden is not a whistleblower – Quartz
By Allison StangerJanuary 10, 2014

Allison Stanger is the Leng Professor of International Politics and Economics at Middlebury College. Her next book, forthcoming with Yale University Press, is "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Leaks: The Story of Whistleblowing in America."

Edward Snowden is many things to many people, and in recent days The New York Times and The Guardianhave favorably editorialized about the overdue debate he has initiated. Rightly so, but both newspapers were wrong to prematurely declare him a whistleblower. Whistleblowers expose illegality and wrongdoing, and no matter what we think of its actions, it is not yet clear that the National Security Agency has been operating illegally or unconstitutionally. So, rather than blow a whistle, Mr. Snowden has shone a light on the extent to which technology, in particular cloud computing, has outstripped our laws and the Patriot Act may have exceeded its usefulness.

First, the matter of whistleblower. The Cambridge dictionary defines the term as “A person who tells someone in authority about something they believe to be illegal that is happening, especially in a government department or a company.” The Whistleblower Protection Act applies to federal employees who disclose “illegal or improper government activities.” Those who argue that the contractor Ed Snowden is a whistleblower, therefore, are deploying different definitions that are not currently rooted in law.

The 2001 Patriot Act lowered the barriers to legal surveillance by allowing the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to approve requests to suspend privacy rights. The surveillance court only hears arguments from the Justice Department and not opposing views, and Chief Justice Roberts has unilateral power to select its members. The surveillance court has been criticized from all points on the political spectrum, and one federal judge has deemed NSA collection of American telephone records to be likely unconstitutional. Another has ruled the other way, making it possible that the Supreme Court will ultimately have to rule on the issue, assuming the program isn’t suspended or materially altered earlier by the administration or Congress.

As of June 2013, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court had received more than 33,900 surveillance requests and turned down just 11 of those. In July 2012, the Director of National Intelligence, James R. Clapper, declassified government documents that showed the court had deemed some NSA data collection “unreasonable under the Fourth Amendment.” The NSA claims to have addressed those concerns. We have no way of knowing whether or not they have actually done so: the chief judge of the surveillance court, Reggie B. Walton, has himself said that his body cannot verify whether the mistakes the NSA reports as unintentional were indeed that, or whether the agency has reported all of its violations.

Meanwhile, the broader societal migration to cloud computing is one of the underappreciated factors that motivated Snowden to reveal what the NSA was doing, and has generated so much of the ensuing apprehension about his revelations. Cloud computing is nothing new—anyone who searches on Google, uses a web-based email program, or works on shared documents via Dropbox has experienced the power of cloud computing. What is new in cloud computing is its sheer scale, as well as the acceleration of our transition away from a reliance on computing power and software applications that reside on hardware we own. With the cloud, all any user needs to access vast computing power is a web browser and a login password.

Cheap and powerful cloud computing potentially serves the interests of companies, consumers, and democracy alike. It also poses a great challenge. Whatever aspect of your life has been uploaded to the cloud does not currently have the same constitutional protection as the same information stored in a drawer in your home. The Fourth Amendment requires government to justify to a court why it has a compelling interest in your personal information. It protects the contents of your laptop from illegal search and seizure, but once you deposit something up in the cloud, you lose that protection. While there are some protections that treat emails like sealed letters, Fourth Amendment protection largely ends where virtual reality begins, since Americans are volunteering to share in this way, not being coerced to do so.

It initially looked as though tech companies were collaborating with the NSA by honoring requests for information, but we now know that the NSA also rummaged through Google’s and Yahoo’s fiber-optics links without consent. The NSA did not believe it needed company consent since the data was extracted from outside US territory. Is that illegal under the Patriot Act and its 2011 extensions, which President Obama signed into law? That is a question for courts to decide.

What is clear is that the Patriot Act coupled with cloud computing has worrisome implications for the privacy rights of American citizens, America’s relationships with allies, and American commerce. Snowden’s revelations have undercut the world’s trust in American companies at the same time they are seeking to extend the range of their influence and appeal in the move to the cloud era.

The NSA is tasked to protect the American people in a dangerous world to the full limits of the law. A panel of presidential advisors has urged President Obama to rein in NSA data mining, finding “persistent instances of noncompliance” but no “illegality or other abuse of authority.” The jury is therefore still out on whether the NSA has really “routinely and deliberately broken the law” as the concluding paragraph of the Times editorial argues, or instead whether the laws themselves are in need of an overhaul or further clarification.

According to the currently available evidence, Snowden is not yet a whistleblower. Yet he doesn’t need to be a whistleblower to have rendered a great public service by exposing the potential gap between current government practices—legal or illegal—and American values.
There is no shortage of legal scholars who disagree with the argument that Snowden is a whistleblower.
 
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