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Freedom of speech is 'universal' right, Michelle Obama tells China

again with the distractions ? can't understand ' our' countries laws , yet want to continue to entertain with ignorance?

As much as you try to wrap yourself in the American flag, your abject ignorance of all things American -- especially the Constitution -- make you the fool. Just hopping on a plane to the US does not make you knowledgeable about the US Constitution.

Readers can see through this thread and see your utter ignorance about the US Constitution. First about the 4th amendment, then about hierarchy of laws, then about probable cause. Now, when I asked you about where in Amendment IV it exempts 'untagged' searches, you come up with a blank.

I already covered probable cause as a legal justification for a search. In the case of NSA, there was no probable cause.

That's the whole debate which has passed over your head.

Duh!
 
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That is classic... I am going to borrow it next time if ya don't mind :rofl:
Not at all. I suggested the removal of that label of him a long time ago.

As much as you try to wrap yourself in the American flag, your abject ignorance of all things American -- especially the Constitution -- make you the fool. Just hopping on a plane to the US does not make you knowledgeable about the US Constitution.

Readers can see through this thread and see your utter ignorance about the US Constitution. First about the 4th amendment, then about hierarchy of laws, then about probable cause. Now, when I asked you about where in Amendment IV it exempts 'untagged' searches, you come up with a blank.

I already covered probable cause as a legal justification for a search. In the case of NSA, there was no probable cause.

That's the whole debate which has passed over your head.

Duh!
And YOU living on the other side of the world -- does ?

What the NSA did and still doing could not be possible without consent of the FISA court.

Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So if the NSA/FISA combination interpreted (rightly or wrongly) what the NSA argued, then the NSA have probable cause. Or at the very least the perception of legitimate probable cause. It is the interpretation, or more accurately the scope of interpretation, that is the crux of the entire controversy. The FISA court may have to be reformed ? Yes. Scrapped ? May be. But as long as the NSA have to seek some kind of approval from some other supervisory body in any incarnation of the FSA court, you cannot argue that the NSA is some kind of rogue organization and acted without 'probable cause'.
 
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No, it is YOU who missed the point. If Snowden interpreted the laws and acted upon his own, he had effectively represented himself.

All he did was refuse to show up in court. That means the trial has not progressed. That's all.

The reality is that whistleblowers do not, and should not, deceive their colleagues into helping them exposing whatever misdeeds suspected.

Poppycock!

Whistleblowers need to collect relevant information to substantiate their case. Just walking into law enforcement and repeating your suspicions will get you nowhere. Some whistleblowers work for years, with or without law enforcement, while collecting evidence.

The whistleblower protections sanction such invasion of colleagues' privacy if the claims are proven.

Snowden did this preemptively. No one's denying that he broke some laws while doing so, but he justifies it by answering to a higher calling -- the US Constitution.

The analogy is still nonsense. The NSA have periodic Congressional oversight while any bank that does what you hypothesize does not have any oversight by anyone. Oversight implies legal approval and protection to start, and the supervision is there to ensure actions do not violate certain boundaries.

So if you want to stick to this absurd analogy, show us where theft is legally sanction by laws.

The analogy is fully applicable.

The "oversight" of the NSA becomes moot when the people writing the laws are believed to be complicit in the wrongdoing. It is as if the bank president authorized the theft.

You clearly don't understand John Adams' quote about the US being a government of laws, not men. If the men making the laws do not abide by the highest law, the Constitution, then it is those men who are at fault.


That document is for wrongful termination or discrimination of employees by a government contractor. It does not apply to this case.

Speak for yourself about being a sheep. Looks like you pretty much put aside any kind of critical thinking when it comes to criticizing US. Your posting of the Fourth Amendment was hilarious. Remove that 'THINK TANK' tag, more like 'THINKING TANKED' for you.

People have extreme reactions when their delusions are shattered. Some people commit violent acts. You just make a fool of yourself on forums.

All this won't change the fact citing 'national security' is not a licence to violate the Constitution. Sheep like you may be fine with it, but others will thank people like Snowden for speaking out and trying to keeping the government in line.

Not at all. I suggested the removal of that label of him a long time ago.

Because I have cleaned your clock on numerous occasions when you wander outside your specialty of cutting and pasitng radar specs. And every time you throw a tantrum of personal insults -- not just at me but at anyone who debates with you..

The only reason you get away with it is because this forum is desperately short of American military members and the management tolerates your unprofessional outbursts.

And YOU living on the other side of the world -- does ?

I certainly do. Knowledge is not constrained by physical presence.

What the NSA did and still doing could not be possible without consent of the FISA court.

Duh once again!

The NSA had broad leeway in interpreting the FISA directives. In practice, the decisions were made by NSA analysts without requiring prior approval by FISA on every case. FISA warrants are typically issued for 12 months, and some directives leave room for analysts to exercise their own judgement.
 
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Oh really! Just shut up and go back to your country. Stop teaching morals to the rest of the world and stop giving us lectures.
 
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Greenwald: NSA leaker Snowden has no whistleblower protection | PunditFact

Greenwald: NSA leaker Snowden has no whistleblower protection

Glenn Greenwald and Ruth Marcus debated the case of Edward Snowden on CNN's "The Lead."

Edward Snowden, the former National Security Agency contractor who revealed the reach of American intelligence into the private lives of its citizens, is approaching a legal turning point. He is at the midpoint in his one-year asylum granted by Russia. What lies beyond is uncharted territory.

The New York Timeseditorial board said the government should grant Snowden clemency and a plea arrangement that contains a limited punishment. Others, including White House National Security Adviser Susan Rice, have said Snowden should return without conditions and "have his day in court."

In the view of Glenn Greenwald, the investigative journalist who was one of the first to gain access to Snowden’s stolen documents, a fair trial is the last thing that awaits the whistleblower if he comes back without a deal.

"Under the Espionage Act, you're not allowed to come into court and say ‘I was justified in disclosing this information’," Greenwald said on CNN’s The Lead. "There is no whistleblower exception in the Espionage Act."

Greenwald’s debate with Ruth Marcus of the Washington Post made for good television. But we wanted to dig deeper into Greenwald’s point about Snowden. There are two pieces to this puzzle. What does the law say and could Snowden reasonably expect to tell his side of the story in a trial?

Limited protections for the intelligence community

The Espionage Act of 1917 makes it a crime punishable by death or imprisonment to share "information relating to the national defense" with anyone who might want to do harm to the United States. Snowden faces two counts of unauthorized communication under that law.

The Espionage Act contains no explicit whistleblower protection, said Bob Turner, a national security expert at the University of Virginia who has been critical of Greenwald and thinks Snowden should face the death penalty.

However, Turned noted that while the 1917 law is silent, a law passed in 1998, theIntelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act, does provide government workers with options.

Under that law, Snowden could have raised his concerns with the Inspector General’s Office at the NSA or spoken to congressional intelligence committees. A separate federal law protects whistleblowers more generally but that only applies to sharing unclassified information, not the secret materials that Snowden had in hand.

"Had Mr. Snowden taken his information to the House or Senate intelligence committees, that would clearly not have violated the Espionage Act," Turner said. "And if it did, his conduct would have been protected by the more recent 1998 whistleblower statute."

But others familiar with this legal landscape told us that no matter what, Snowden was still vulnerable.

The Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act, for instance, does not prohibit agencies from retaliating against employees, said Elizabeth Goitein, co-director of the Brennan Center’s Liberty and National Security Program at New York University School of Law.

Goitein said President Barack Obama helped matters slightly when he issued a presidential order preventing retaliation against federal employees. But that order did not explicitly address the rights of contractors such as Snowden. And Goitein added, neither that directive nor the whistleblower law "bars the government from criminally prosecuting whistleblowers."

In 2010, NSA staffer Thomas Drake tried to use proper channels to report allegations of improper contracting but wound up the target of an investigation, said Kathleen McClellan, the national security and human rights counsel for the Government Accountability Project, a whistleblower advocacy group.

"Drake followed the Intelligence Community Whistleblower law to a ‘T’," McClellan said. "He went to the Department of Defense inspector general and both congressional intelligence committees and it did not protect him from retaliation. In fact, it made him the target of an investigation."

Federal agents wrongly went after Drake in pursuit of a separate matter and charged him with multiple felonies, according to a report from the Committee to Protect Journalists. When it became clear that whatever Drake had shared with the press was either not classified or already in the public domain, the government’s felony case collapsed. A federal judge said it was "unconscionable" that Drake and his family had endured "four years of hell."

Restrictions within the courtroom

Greenwald said Snowden would not be allowed to justify his actions in court. On this front, we can’t offer a definitive assessment. We don’t know what matters government prosecutors would permit into the courtroom, and we don’t know how a judge would rule on the government’s motions.

However, recent trials under the Espionage Act make it clear that Snowden could expect no guarantee that he would be able to tell a jury why his violations might serve the country’s national interests. What he and his lawyers could present might be tightly constrained.

"The executive branch has asserted the sole authority to determine what remains a secret," McClellan said. "The way these Espionage Act prosecutions have gone, it has not been fair to the defendants. It has not followed what you would expect in a traditional trial."

Turner of the University of Virginia said he thinks public sympathy for Snowden is so broad, he might do fine with a jury.

"All he needs to walk free is a single juror who views him as a ‘hero’," Turner said.

But whether any juror would hear a single reference to Snowden’s claims to a higher purpose is also unclear.

In 2012, a federal judge ruled that former CIA worker John Kiriakou could not present evidence about his reasons for going public with accounts of U.S. waterboarding during interrogations. Kiriakou was charged with disclosing classified information under the Espionage Act.

"Any claim that he acted with a salutary motive, or that he acted without a subversive motive, when he allegedly communicated NDI (national defense information) to journalists is not relevant to this case," the judge wrote.

The trial of leaker Bradley (now Chelsea) Manning -- who gave troves of classified information to WikiLeaks -- followed similar lines, with the important difference that those proceedings took place in a military courtroom.

Our ruling

Greenwald said that if Snowden returned to the United States, he would have no protections under the Espionage Act and would not be allowed to justify his actions in court. In terms of the law, Greenwald is literally correct.

Two other legal documents, however, could have provided Snowden some potential protections before he shared classified information with the press. But once he did, no law offers Snowden any shelter.

Greenwald’s further claim on what Snowden could say in his defense is less clear because it depends on what government prosecutors would do. We can’t assess the accuracy of any statement about future outcomes. However, it is clear that there is ample precedent to show that Snowden would have no guaranteed opportunity to explain his motivations.

Folding in that ambiguity, we rate the claim Mostly True.
 
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As much as you try to wrap yourself in the American flag, your abject ignorance of all things American -- especially the Constitution -- make you the fool. Just hopping on a plane to the US does not make you knowledgeable about the US Constitution.

Readers can see through this thread and see your utter ignorance about the US Constitution. First about the 4th amendment, then about hierarchy of laws, then about probable cause. Now, when I asked you about where in Amendment IV it exempts 'untagged' searches, you come up with a blank.

I already covered probable cause as a legal justification for a search. In the case of NSA, there was no probable cause.

That's the whole debate which has passed over your head.

Duh!

ROFL. you are hilarious, the one man legal eagle extraordinaire that plays US attorney on PDF. you have not only NOT covered Jack, you made quite entertaining for us... when all fails you attack me for be an american :rofl:

It is not I who wraps himself in the american flag, I am an american & I don't need to. But it is you oddly who always seems to speak for us pretending you know something, anything about us, always on these boards.

dude , you see the the irony that a lackey sitting in australia trying to teach us legalese of the american judicial system. legalese that not a single US lawyer has ever bothered to file because of the pure rubbish in that stance? :rofl:

Article IV is about mitigating circumstances , and not having the word untagged does not make the NSA acting in this manner unlawful. Stick to topics from your home country! :lol:

as I told you before- to expend your new found legal eagle traits to free someone --- there is a doctor from your country unlawfully jailed in Pakistan. he did not break any laws by having a private entity ask him to do a vaccination drive. even so if it was about catching the world's no1 terrorist you guys were harbouring. A doctor who you are oddly okay with being jailed;)
 
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All he did was refuse to show up in court. That means the trial has not progressed. That's all.
The old saying goes: 'The lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.'

It means the laws, under a society that is governed by laws instead of bullets, are complicated enough that even a lawyer needs another lawyer when it is his life is on the line. So this has nothing to do with Snowden representing himself in court but about Snowden taking the laws into his own hands and shortchanging himself by interpreting the laws without the assistance of professionals who practices law for a living.

So the defense that Snowden's own interpretation of the laws is weak from this perspective.

Poppycock!

Whistleblowers need to collect relevant information to substantiate their case. Just walking into law enforcement and repeating your suspicions will get you nowhere. Some whistleblowers work for years, with or without law enforcement, while collecting evidence.

The whistleblower protections sanction such invasion of colleagues' privacy if the claims are proven.

Snowden did this preemptively. No one's denying that he broke some laws while doing so, but he justifies it by answering to a higher calling -- the US Constitution.
Fine...Then let us extend that defense to political assassinations, shall we ?

The analogy is fully applicable.

The "oversight" of the NSA becomes moot when the people writing the laws are believed to be complicit in the wrongdoing. It is as if the bank president authorized the theft.

You clearly don't understand John Adams' quote about the US being a government of laws, not men. If the men making the laws do not abide by the highest law, the Constitution, then it is those men who are at fault.
Sure it is...A bank engaging in credit card info theft is perfectly analogous to national security concerns. :rolleyes:

The NSA is a legitimate organization engaging in a perfectly legitimate, morally and legally, mission. Further, the NSA shares its data with allies. Despite the political theater and public moral outrage that must be exhibited by our allies, everyone knows everyone spies on everyone else, and that everyone acknowledge that such activities are NECESSARY.

I wonder which bank that steal credit card theft shares THAT treasure of information with other banks and all of them agrees that such theft and sharing of info are necessary. :lol:

That document is for wrongful termination or discrimination of employees by a government contractor. It does not apply to this case.
It was not meant to be but to show the complexity of the laws and how feeble is the defense that Snowden's interpretation of the laws is sufficient for him to act the way he did.

People have extreme reactions when their delusions are shattered. Some people commit violent acts. You just make a fool of yourself on forums.
Me ? Am still waiting for an example of how theft can be sanctioned by laws from you.

All this won't change the fact citing 'national security' is not a licence to violate the Constitution. Sheep like you may be fine with it, but others will thank people like Snowden for speaking out and trying to keeping the government in line.
The US Constitution was debated by American professionals more than YOU could ever learn when it comes to what the NSA can and cannot do. That is why it was laughable that you brought on the 4th Amendment without showing HOW it was violated other than your own interpretations of what is 'probable cause'.

Because I have cleaned your clock on numerous occasions when you wander outside your specialty of cutting and pasitng radar specs. And every time you throw a tantrum of personal insults -- not just at me but at anyone who debates with you..

The only reason you get away with it is because this forum is desperately short of American military members and the management tolerates your unprofessional outbursts.
No one other than you and the Chinese members take this seriously. You accused me of using racist slurs against the Chinese members here and the best evidence you got is me using the word 'boys'.

Am still waiting for better evidences. Got any ?

I certainly do. Knowledge is not constrained by physical presence.
But...But...According to you, it is not applicable to the other guy just because he flew to the US.

Duh once again!

The NSA had broad leeway in interpreting the FISA directives. In practice, the decisions were made by NSA analysts without requiring prior approval by FISA on every case. FISA warrants are typically issued for 12 months, and some directives leave room for analysts to exercise their own judgement.
Therein lies the flaw in your criticisms, a flaw glaring enough for anyone willing to do basic research. But not you.

Am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you did not even know of FISA and I will win that bet because all this time, the core of your argument has been the NSA abused its authority when the truth is that there is a different authority that grants permission to the NSA to do what it does. If there are abuses in some cases, it means there are compliance to the FISA court in other cases, and that mean the NSA is not a rogue organization like you dishonestly made it out to be in your desperate attempt to beatify Snowden.

Finally...

Analysis: Why Edward Snowden isn't a whistle-blower, legally speaking - U.S. News
Tuesday Jun 18, 2013 12:16 PM

By Pete Williams, NBC News justice correspondent

For starters, the general whistle-blower laws apply to government employees who expose wrongdoing, by protecting them from such retaliatory actions as firing, demotion, salary cuts, or blocked promotions. But those laws do not apply to employees or contractors who work for the intelligence agencies.

Instead, a separate law, the Intelligence Community Whistle-blower Protection Act, applies to people who held positions such as the one Snowden did as a contractor for the National Security Agency. Legal experts say, however, that it provides no protection to him for two reasons.

First, they say, he did not expose the kinds of actions covered by whistle-blower protections — illegal conduct, fraud, waste or abuse. Some people have argued that the programs revealed by Snowden are illegal or unconstitutional. For now, they are presumptively legal, given the assent of members of Congress and the special court known as FISA that oversees intelligence operations.

But suppose Snowden’s supporters are right, and what he exposed was illegal conduct after all.

Then he would face a second problem: The Federal Whistle-blower Protection Act protects the public disclosure of “a violation of any law, rule, or regulation” only “if such disclosure is not specifically prohibited by law.” In other words, Snowden could claim whistle-blower protection only if he took his concerns to the NSA’s inspector general or to a member of one of the congressional intelligence committees with the proper security clearances.
Sucker is the correct word to describe you.

There is a law that governs what Snowden does. Not only about his exposure of what the NSA strayed, but also what he does day to day as his duties demands.

Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...contractor who intends to report to Congress a complaint or information of “urgent concern” involving an intelligence activity may report the complaint or information to the DOJ Office of the Inspector General. Within a 14-day period, the OIG must determine “whether the complaint or information appears credible,” and upon finding the information to be credible, thereafter transfer the information to the Attorney General who then submits the information to the House and Senate Intelligence Committees.
Did Snowden went thru the proper 'chain of command' ? No. He should have. And if whatever the consequences are not to his satisfaction, Snowden then could petition directly to the Congress.

In other words, Snowden misled the public about his protection possibilities. He always had protection provided he followed the law that governs his contractor employment status. Whether what the NSA did that may or may not be illegal, Snowden have legal protection should he decide to speak up. But that is not the core issue.

This is the core issue as explained by NBC's Pete Williams, NBC News justice correspondent...

...claim whistle-blower protection only if he took his concerns to the NSA’s inspector general or to a member of one of the congressional intelligence committees with the proper security clearances.
Who in China or Russia have the proper security clearance to read NSA documents ? :lol:

Did Snowden know of his protection possibility ? Difficult to swallow his argument that he does not when he must have signed confidential agreements before he started working for the NSA via a third party. That mean Snowden knew what he should have done and could have done to accomplish his claimed high minded mission to expose NSA abuses and secure democracy without compromising and even threatening the lives of those on the front lines.

It is too late for Snowden to claim whistleblower status among professional lawyers. By now, even the ACLU would admit that in bypassing the IG and Congress, Snowden lost all legal avenues and now must hope for a Presidential act of mercy, which is unlikely even with a liberal like Obama.

But hey...Am perfectly fine if you considered my clocked cleaned by you when you did not know of the FISA court and not bothered to do basic research to verify Snowden's claim about not having legal protection.

Sucker...:enjoy:
 
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The analogy is fully applicable.

The "oversight" of the NSA becomes moot when the people writing the laws are believed to be complicit in the wrongdoing. It is as if the bank president authorized the theft.
Here is how 'whistleblower' protection supposed to work, and we will use your bank example...

Say YOU discovered some colleagues have been selling customer data to competitors and even to criminal elements. You pretend to know nothing and at one point even to wink and nod at what they do, all the while gathering information on when and how much they sold. You also discovered the division manager have no knowledge of this. Then one day you inform the bank president of what have been going on. The division manager, although innocent of any wrongdoing, now have a black mark on his record and is on the president's shit list. He then decide to put you on his shit list. The bank president then steps in and invoke the company's 'whistleblower protection rule' and prevent anyone from taking reprisals against you.

That is how whistleblower protection works, of which the organization, or division, must be allowed to do its own review and take its own corrective actions with you being protected in the process.

But what if you take all the data you gathered, quit your job, and take everything public ? By everything, meaning customer data as well as perpetrators' names and dates of illegal actions. Yes, you exposed a great wrong that went on inside the bank, but you also endangered the financial lives of who once were your customers and responsibilities.

Sorry...But there is no excuse for the latter. The bank's customers will hate you for what you did to them. Many of them will take their business elsewhere and some of them will be harmed by criminal elements because of you.

Snowden is no whistleblower. He may not be a traitor but hardly neither a saint nor victim as you are trying to portray him.
 
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when all fails you attack me for be an american

I am not attacking you for being American.

I am laughing at your abject ignorance of all things American and your pathetic attempt to hide behind vacuous platitudes of 'our country', 'our laws' when you haven't the faintest clue about any of them.

Readers can look back and see how all your posts contain no substance -- just vacuous chest beating.
 
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I am not attacking you for being American.

I am laughing at your abject ignorance of all things American and your pathetic attempt to hide behind vacuous platitudes of 'our country', 'our laws' when you haven't the faintest clue about any of them.

Readers can look back and see how all your posts contain no substance -- just vacuous chest beating.
@JayAtl is not a American, he's a yindu baniya trying to be more American than even most Americans. He's trying to 'prove' his loyalty :lol:.

I knew you would keep the entertaining up. :lol:

1. you have now moved from the article IV to preaching about what makes us " the land of the free". Oye don't worry about what separates us , stick to the legal basis on article IV - that you have yet to show as being violated.

2. I know this concept is getting difficult for you to comprehend, but " tagging" is the issue as no intrusion has taken place if not tagged...that is how article IV is not breached. This is the action( among others) that make it " legal". There is no "unreasonable" search and nor seizure if not tagged

3. I asked to show proof of action without a "warrant" and you not only did not give any such proof- but all you have given me is some comment in some media about hacking sys admins.

What is freaking hilarious is that, even so, that it talks about hacking...it goes to further say- QUOTE " foreign network routers, the devices that connect computer networks and transport data across the Internet. By infiltrating the computers of system administrators who work for foreign phone and Internet companies, the NSA can gain access to the calls and emails that flow over their networks." ....

All spy agencies do that


You're not even American bharatya!! Display your true flags if you possess any b@ll$, which you most likely don't!!

if you go back to the country/ cave you came from, I will consider it...
You should go back to the country/slums you came from, then we will consider it. @RazPaK
 
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So how are those political dissidents in China ?

Ach...I forget...You live in the free West where it is easy to criticize the government without fear of secret polices.

Political matters in China are irrelevant to this argument. The issue isn't regarding whether China does or does not have political discontentment but rather the obvious and egregious double standards that were nonchalantly implied in the First Lady's rhetoric.

I think you are mixing up freedom of speech and breaking the law . I can understand why you got confused about not knowing what freedom of speech is about.

And guess what, the freedom of speech or the lack thereof are inherently decided by laws, one of which the United States claim Mr. Snowden has broken.
 
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@JayAtl is not a American, he's a yindu baniya trying to be more American than even most Americans. He's trying to 'prove' his loyalty :lol:.
This behavior is quite common among naturalized US citizen. The poor souls always try to prove themselves as more loyal than the king. This is not their fault, it is the fault of the place from where they have come, their socio-economic background (which is usually not impressive) back in home, and the circumstances that made them to leave their countries in the first place. For instance gambit is a Vietnamese, who murdered his countrymen alongside invading western forces. What else do you expect from such people.
 
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Freedom of speech wont gaurantee you can speak freely to condemn US or advocate death to US, Obama can take you out with drone strike when the US government put you on a black list because your speech mention in some form of Jihad against US interest worldwide. The limitation wtih freedom of speech in the US that you will pay for your life when the government deem your speech with terrorist connotation, you fate will meet with a hellfire missiles even your speech without any substance related to any terrorist organization. Are you really free to speak your mind?
 
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So the defense that Snowden's own interpretation of the laws is weak from this perspective.

Once again, you keep dancing around the fact that Snowden is refusing to appear before court based on his fears that he will not get a fair trial and he will be persecuted.

My post #85 above details why his fears are well founded. Previous individuals who dared to expose wrongdoing by federal agencies did not fare well, including prosecution on unrelated offences to harass them, and even being unable to present their case fully in court.

Fine...Then let us extend that defense to political assassinations, shall we ?

What about political assassinations? Be more explicit in your claims.

The NSA is a legitimate organization engaging in a perfectly legitimate, morally and legally, mission.

You are arguing in circles. You are assuming your conclusion and using it as your premise.

The whole discussion is whether the NSA engaged in illegal conduct.

It was not meant to be but to show the complexity of the laws and how feeble is the defense that Snowden's interpretation of the laws is sufficient for him to act the way he did.

Snowden is not using that as a defence for his actions, but to explain why he doesn't expect to get a fair trial for his actions.

Me ? Am still waiting for an example of how theft can be sanctioned by laws from you.

I never claimed that theft is sanctioned. I claimed that the NSA's actions could be illegal (under the highest law), just as theft is illegal.

The US Constitution was debated by American professionals more than YOU could ever learn when it comes to what the NSA can and cannot do. That is why it was laughable that you brought on the 4th Amendment without showing HOW it was violated other than your own interpretations of what is 'probable cause'.

I am well aware of the Constitutional debates around Snowden's accusations and I understand them far better than you can ever possibly hope to, given your pitiful command of the subject.

The fact that you don't see the relevance of the Fourth amendment, when it is central to the whole issue, is a glaring indictment of how utterly clueless you are about the subject.

Am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that you did not even know of FISA

Like everything else in this discussion, you would lose that bet.

The role of FISA and its relationship with NSA has been in the news from the beginning. The Guardian articles, which revealed some of Snowden's claims, explained the relationship back in 2013.

It is only your delusion that others are as ignorant of the facts as you are. What you still don't understand is that one of the core questions is how much oversight FISA had over NSA activities and how much independent leeway the NSA analysts had. It appears from the documents that the NSA analysts had a lot of leeway, which allowed them to engage in activities that may breach Constitutional protections.


Those claims and others have already been discussed in post #85. I suggest you read it.

Sucker is the correct word to describe you.

Only to clueless schmucks like you who are incapable of independent though and must follow authority like sheep.

Did Snowden went thru the proper 'chain of command' ? No. He should have. And if whatever the consequences are not to his satisfaction, Snowden then could petition directly to the Congress.

Once again, post #85 addresses this situation and past instances where others didn't fare so well. I suggest you read before posting.

But hey...Am perfectly fine if you considered my clocked cleaned by you when you did not know of the FISA court and not bothered to do basic research to verify Snowden's claim about not having legal protection.

Indeed you got your clock cleaned once again because, in your desperation, you made an assumption that I did not know about FISA -- when FISA has been in the news since 2013 -- and also because you did not read post #85 which explains why Snowden's fears of persecution are well-founded.
 
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@JayAtl is not a American, he's a yindu baniya trying to be more American than even most Americans. He's trying to 'prove' his loyalty :lol:.

I am not questioning his American status, nor do I care whether he is American or Peruvian.

My only comment is that he should back his arguments with specifics and references. So far, all his posts boil down to "I am an American and you are not". That's a ridiculous way to debate any issue.
 
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