France starts ban on full-face veil

[JayAtl]

This is what happens when the followers of a religion take it too far- that they get slapped back with such laws. France was not bothered about this 3 decades ago. It's the last 2 decades that Muslims have the radicals that have taken over as the face of the religion- leading to such counter reactions. I don't what it is about the followers but seems like somehow they expect everyone to kow tow to their religious demands. Europe is to blame with its relaxed attitudes that allow these radicals too many rights

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

My friend Hooded tops , every kind of mask, face painting, hats, glasses, long jackets/coats or any stuff which people use to cover their face/ear/nose in cold winter etc also make it difficult to be identified in case of crime. Why don’t go for banning all these stuffs if some criminal could misuse them?

Mobile/internet can also be used by criminals to commit certain crimes then we should also go for banning these things even when majority of us use it for right purpose. Wine or drunk people can also be dangerous for safety of public because rape or serious accident could happen if you are too drunk then why don’t ban wine? No instead Government will spend million to protect this right of people and will appoint extra policemen at mid night to look after drunk people or for safety of general public. Its Irony that people are feeling threatened with one extra piece of clothes but never stop expansion of nuclear weapons which killed millions

MR Nicolas Sarkozy did not gave same reasoning for banning the burqa/veil

“I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France. In our country, we can't accept women prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity. That is not our idea of freedom."

How could he speak on behalf of all Muslim women and to assume that they are feeling oppressive or prisoners when they wear it by their own free will or choice. Its not right for champions of freedom and equality to support any kind of ban on an individual's choice of dress. If muslim woman is not happy with the burka then she is alright. If she is happy with the burka then she is a radical

I am sorry to say that your arguments make absolutely no sense ! France banned all kind of face covering dress. painting masks etc are not used public places but in work places hope you understand the difference, and also every law, ban, clauses will have exceptions also because of practicality and inconvenience, priority reasons.
you say why not ban wine, kitchen knife, mobile phone etc because that too could be used for crime ? then you could also ask why ban illegal arms and guns, explosives , large quantity of ganja, drunken driving,hate speeches, because that is also a restriction of freedom ?

Remove the lense of religious bias and see, restrictions and exceptions in restrictions, regulations etc are imposed according to threat perception, public inconvenience caused, vulnerability of misuse, practicality, and whole lot of things, it's done after much brainstorming and debates and fine tuning of clauses. what you are arguing is either allow complete freedom or ban everything including a shaving razor, that's a stupid argument to make.

 

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070
Can I say the same about Islamic states...at least they are up front and not hiding behind a newly coined term called Secularism ....

But it gives Judeo Christian heritage free license to do as they will? Just because they have nicely fooled the world by using the word Secularism and Democratic? My only request is ....EITHER down with that word and do what they are doing now...or stick to the word but live it...no middle way!
Muslim countries are not hiding under secularism...they openly say they are MUSLIM COUNTRIES...they are not lying to the world...
Secular yet we are suppressed....Democratic yet our voices are not heard and have no rights for anything?

Well, no victim complex here...truth is what it is...

If your Islamic heritage gives you a free license, why not others are entitled to their own license?

Even the Islamic countries claim to follow the "final and perfect" Islamic law. They also claim that Islam gives the maximum rights to minorities.

Is that the reality on the ground?

You are too hung up on the words "secular" and "democratic" and what you assume they should mean and how they should be implemented.

Without ever wanting to implement them in your own Islamic countries!

These concepts come from a certain value system. When that value system is perceived to be under attack, people will take the measures they deem necessary to protect it, if they value it enough.

It is clear that you don't give a damn that Muslim countries are so oppressive towards their minorities and even Muslim sects.

All you are interested in is in making ever increasing demands on those who have given you more than you could ever get in your own country or in any Islamic country.

I think that is hypocrisy. I don't support it.

 

[Vinod2070]

women's "dignity" ?

Since when is it "dignified" to peel off a womans clothing and commoditize her body for the world to ogle and wow at as a piece of artwork?

What if a woman chooses to do the absolute opposite i.e wear layers of clothing that gives this clear message to men: "hands off", "eyes off" and last but not least "back off" ?

You guys tend to define the issue in your own terms which have nothing to do with reality.

First of all, they have a different culture. In their culture women are not looked at as having some sort of mysterious powers, such that merely looking at her face or even ankles will make the men raving madmen.

In your own culture, open discourse and friendship between the sexes is impossible, not in the culture you chose to emigrate to.

The others actually feel that it is in Muslim culture that the women are treated as commodities, with no free will, as "naqisul aqal" and it is all apparently sanctioned by the divine.

You need to open your mind to the culture you have chosen to move to.

Not expect them to adapt to yours. If you like it so much, you can make a decision to move back.

 

[JayAtl]

You guys tend to define the issue in your own terms which have nothing to do with reality.

First of all, they have a different culture. In their culture women are not looked at as having some sort of mysterious powers, such that merely looking at her face or even ankles will make the men raving madmen.

In your own culture, open discourse and friendship between the sexes is impossible, not in the culture you chose to emigrate to.

The others actually feel that it is in Muslim culture that the women are treated as commodities, with no free will, as "naqisul aqal" and it is all apparently sanctioned by the divine.

You need to open your mind to the culture you have chosen to move to.

Not expect them to adapt to yours. If you like it so much, you can make a decision to move back.

So true. In fact abuses against women seem to be highest among such oppressive thinkers- who seem to lecture others about morality

 

[Rangila]

There are 7 countries in the world where the state can execute you for being atheist. Every single one is officially Islamic.

If they can do these things, why not other countries, as for as laws are concerned.

 

[Dubious]

If your Islamic heritage gives you a free license, why not others are entitled to their own license?

Even the Islamic countries claim to follow the "final and perfect" Islamic law. They also claim that Islam gives the maximum rights to minorities.

Is that the reality on the ground?

You are too hung up on the words "secular" and "democratic" and what you assume they should mean and how they should be implemented.

Without ever wanting to implement them in your own Islamic countries!

These concepts come from a certain value system. When that value system is perceived to be under attack, people will take the measures they deem necessary to protect it, if they value it enough.

It is clear that you don't give a damn that Muslim countries are so oppressive towards their minorities and even Muslim sects.

All you are interested in is in making ever increasing demands on those who have given you more than you could ever get in your own country or in any Islamic country.

I think that is hypocrisy. I don't support it.

@Vinod2070 Why are you mad? I made myself clear from the 1st few posts....I am ONLY interested in the MISUSE of the words "democracy" and "secularism"

Because when Indians throw it at Pakistanis...they give us the "FREEDOM" speech....But when FREEDOM is curbed in the very countries proclaiming to PRACTICE these words.....it is overlooked?! NOW THAT IS hypocrisy at its best!

I do not want to bring Islamic countries in because they do not PROCLAIM themselves as either DEMOCRATS nor SECULAR! If they did...then them oppressing or what not should be questioned! Because SECULAR DEMOCRATS was coined to show that the MUSLIMS are backwards....Now if that is the case...the same word seems to be showing oppression which is being done in everyother country so what is soo great about secular democrat?! THAT was my main discussion...

EVERYONE else brought their own concepts in but never answered MY QUESTION!

Besides THIS thread is about FRANCE an EU nation...I am not sure why everyone keeps dragging EVERYTHING else except WHAT the topic is about...

 

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070 Why are you mad? I made myself clear from the 1st few posts....I am ONLY interested in the MISUSE of the words "democracy" and "secularism"

Because when Indians throw it at Pakistanis...they give us the "FREEDOM" speech....But when FREEDOM is curbed in the very countries proclaiming to PRACTICE these words.....it is overlooked?! NOW THAT IS hypocrisy at its best!

I do not want to bring Islamic countries in because they do not PROCLAIM themselves as either DEMOCRATS nor SECULAR! If they did...then them oppressing or what not should be questioned! Because SECULAR DEMOCRATS was coined to show that the MUSLIMS are backwards....Now if that is the case...the same word seems to be showing oppression which is being done in everyother country so what is soo great about secular democrat?! THAT was my main discussion...

EVERYONE else brought their own concepts in but never answered MY QUESTION!

I am not. I am just saying that don't get too hung up on some words.

It is actions that matter more than words.

You can't get away by claiming that we are exempt from treating our minorities better.

This will not fly madam. You need to give to others what you claim for yourself.

they do not PROCLAIM themselves as either DEMOCRATS nor SECULAR! If they did...then them oppressing or what not should be questioned!

 

[Dubious]

I am not. I am just saying that don't get too hung up on some words.

It is actions that matter more than words.

You can't get away by claiming that we are exempt from treating our minorities better.

This will not fly madam. You need to give to others what you claim for yourself.

@Vinod2070 maybe you should take this to the UN court ....and ask them to actually practice what they preach to the Middle east and Asia...

 

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070 maybe you should take this to the UN court ....and ask them to actually practice what they preach to the Middle east and Asia...

Absolutely.

So is it the "preaching" that seems to be the issue here or the actual actions of the countries involved?

Would it make you feel better if they stopped calling themselves secular and democratic?

How will it change anything on the ground?

Bottom line: Implement in Islamic countries what you demand in non Islamic ones.

No getting away from this uncomfortable reality. More and more in the future, you will be held to this premise.

 

[Dubious]

Absolutely.

So is it the "preaching" that seems to be the issue here or the actual actions of the countries involved?

Would it make you feel better if they stopped calling themselves secular and democratic?

How will it change anything on the ground?

Bottom line: Implement in Islamic countries what you demand in non Islamic ones.

No getting away from this uncomfortable reality. More and more in the future, you will be held to this premise.

@Vinod2070 please stick to the topic please or I will be forced to ask moderators to close this thread as it is getting off topic....

From EU people just want to jump into Middle East...

Absolutely.

So is it the "preaching" that seems to be the issue here or the actual actions of the countries involved?

Would it make you feel better if they stopped calling themselves secular and democratic?

How will it change anything on the ground?

@Vinod2070 If I pick up an apple and call it orange and expect the world to believe me and actually get away with fooling half the world....I would feel the world is a fool and would buy anything I will say and next I will say a banana is a strawberry and everyone will just node? When someone questions this ...others try to support the liar by telling that someone else chopped the banana with a butcher knife rather than a fruit knife?

2 different topics....I am not sure if you understood....

 

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070 please stick to the topic please or I will be forced to ask moderators to close this thread as it is getting off topic....

From EU people just want to jump into Middle East...

@Vinod2070 If I pick up an apple and call it orange and expect the world to believe me and actually get away with fooling half the world....I would feel the world is a fool and would buy anything I will say and next I will say a banana is a strawberry and everyone will just node? When someone questions this ...others try to support the liar by telling that someone else chopped the banana with a butcher knife rather than a fruit knife?

2 different topics....I am not sure if you understood....

Madam, it is the topic. I know it is getting uncomfortable for you. You would rather just blame them non Muslims and feel so much better at passing yet another test.

Others look at it completely differently and at least you should try and understand that.

 

[Dubious]

Madam, it is the topic. I know it is getting uncomfortable for you. You would rather just blame them non Muslims and feel so much better at passing yet another test.

Others look at it completely differently and at least you should try and understand that.

@Vinod2070 Lolz....I am not uncomfortable with ANYTHING ....but you seem uncomfortable in admitting a lie when you see 1!!

 

[Vinod2070]

@Vinod2070 Lolz....I am not uncomfortable with ANYTHING ....but you seem uncomfortable in admitting a lie when you see 1!!

OK, leaving aside the semantics and what one chooses to call oneself, let us understand why you think you should make demands on non Muslims in their countries that you won't fulfill in your own?

If all you have is: "But they call themselves secular and we call ourselves Islamic (as if that takes away all the responsibilities)", let's agree to disagree.

I will think of this position as hypocritical and you are welcome to think likewise.

 

[$@rJen]

ya... now Pakistan will make shaheen 2.0 to extend its missile reach to France....ha ha...