France Gave Advanced Shipbuilding Techniques to Russia Before Mistral Deal Frozen

[Indian Patriot]

Why are you arguing with an 'Indian patriot' that even Indians here themselves have condemned/distanced themselves from? Garde ton calme Cher ami.

Very intelligent words I must say.

 

[Taygibay]

Garde ton calme Cher ami.

LOL Merci du conseil!

Very intelligent words I must say.

And the opponent agrees … so go!

Read you all later, Tay.

 

[Echo_419]

Contemporary world history.

The USSR single-handedly demolished Nazi Germany in the second world war and I won't hurt your feelings by discussing French contribution in that war.

The USSR was a world power and direct rival of USA during the cold war because of its military muscle. Yet again I won't bring up France.

Anybody who has even an amateur interest in history will agree that Russian weapons be it their tanks, aircraft, ships, artillery, missiles count among the best in the world. They were not called a super power for nothing.

I suggest you skip your fanlyhood and read history. Like you said my friend this is a military forum and not a knitting club. Unless your internet articles can confirm that France has anything of the class of Akula and Typhoon nuclear submarines, Yakhont class supersonic cruise missiles and Topol-M class ICBMs then you should not get so excited. Russia is building stealth fighters like the PAK-FA, how many French stealth aircraft are there in making?

France has an independent military industry, good thing. But to say France is equal or superior to Russia in military design and manufacture then you are sadly sadly mistaken.

Military matters are based on cold facts and sound judgement more than sports do. Please be aware of that.

There is a deffrence BTW USSR & INDIA

 

[New World]

Russians have better weapons and weapons platform than France. Russian SSBNs are the best in the world. Only thyink Russians lack is the finance.

Well, can you compare Russian su-35 jet with french rafale??

 

[Indian Patriot]

LOL Merci du conseil!


And the opponent agrees … so go!

View attachment 231104

Read you all later, Tay.

The only reason you are commenting so persistently is because you take things personally. I am sorry to burst your bubble kid but France is a joke compared to Russia, it was during the disastrous campaign of Napoleon, it was during the surrender of France to Germany while Russia clobbered the same Germans and it was during the cold war.

France is a decent military power, or should I say it was a military superpower during the colonial era. Irrespective of the Russian disaster there is no doubt Napoleon commanded the most powerful army of the world at his prime. But this thread is about France giving technology to Russia. Russia does not need technology what Russia needs is funds to fulfill their projects.

Your comments show you are incapable of a honest debate and the only thing you can do is get butt hurt and personal. So adios to you francaise. Have a bon jour. (Or whatever they say in France.)

Well, can you compare Russian su-35 jet with french rafale??

Russian aircraft is more advanced than French.

Listen, I am not a fan of either Russia or France but you cannot ignore reality because of personal bias. Look nat WW2 and post WW2 history. Russians revolutionised air warfare along with the Americans. Mig-15, 19 were kings at their era. Mig - 25 was an unmatched bird. Su - 27 was the best 4.5 gen before EF-2000 and Rafale came along. I won't say Su-35 is better than Rafale but it can most definitely hold their own against Rafale.

The most advanced manned aircraft for Russia at present is PAK-FA, a 5th gen aircraft. While France have Rafale a 4.5 gen aircraft.

Russia has the best designs on weapons, they lack funds. India had to bail out the PAK-FA program.

 

[New World]

The only reason you are commenting so persistently is because you take things personally. I am sorry to burst your bubble kid but France is a joke compared to Russia, it was during the disastrous campaign of Napoleon, it was during the surrender of France to Germany while Russia clobbered the same Germans and it was during the cold war.

France is a decent military power, or should I say it was a military superpower during the colonial era. Irrespective of the Russian disaster there is no doubt Napoleon commanded the most powerful army of the world at his prime. But this thread is about France giving technology to Russia. Russia does not need technology what Russia needs is funds to fulfill their projects.

Your comments show you are incapable of a honest debate and the only thing you can do is get butt hurt and personal. So adios to you francaise. Have a bon jour. (Or whatever they say in France.)



Russian aircraft is more advanced than French.

Listen, I am not a fan of either Russia or France but you cannot ignore reality because of personal bias. Look nat WW2 and post WW2 history. Russians revolutionised air warfare along with the Americans. Mig-15, 19 were kings at their era. Mig - 25 was an unmatched bird. Su - 27 was the best 4.5 gen before EF-2000 and Rafale came along. I won't say Su-35 is better than Rafale but it can most definitely hold their own against Rafale.

The most advanced manned aircraft for Russia at present is PAK-FA, a 5th gen aircraft. While France have Rafale a 4.5 gen aircraft.

Russia has the best designs on weapons, they lack funds. India had to bail out the PAK-FA program.

bhai tou jeeta, maine maaf krdy..

 

[Gabriel92]

The only reason you are commenting so persistently is because you take things personally. I am sorry to burst your bubble kid but France is a joke compared to Russia, it was during the disastrous campaign of Napoleon, it was during the surrender of France to Germany while Russia clobbered the same Germans and it was during the cold war.

Thanks to the Winter,otherwise they would have taken Moscow and probably advanced more and more inside Russia.

France is a decent military power, or should I say it was a military superpower during the colonial era. Irrespective of the Russian disaster there is no doubt Napoleon commanded the most powerful army of the world at his prime. But this thread is about France giving technology to Russia. Russia does not need technology what Russia needs is funds to fulfill their projects.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union,they lost many capabilities in naval construction,that's why they seeked technology from abroad....
Just look how they have difficulties with just building some 4-6.000T ships.......
And now they "want" to build an aircraft carrier ? Let me laugh. It's just some propaganda for their people and brainwashed pro-russians,they don't have the capabilities,nor the funds to build one.
Still,Russia's navy is decaying...

Russian aircraft is more advanced than French.

Back your claims.
Yes,It's easy to say "X has a bigger d.ck than Y" without backing your claims.

Listen, I am not a fan of either Russia or France but you cannot ignore reality because of personal bias. Look nat WW2 and post WW2 history. Russians revolutionised air warfare along with the Americans. Mig-15, 19 were kings at their era. Mig - 25 was an unmatched bird. Su - 27 was the best 4.5 gen before EF-2000 and Rafale came along. I won't say Su-35 is better than Rafale but it can most definitely hold their own against Rafale.

The most advanced manned aircraft for Russia at present is PAK-FA, a 5th gen aircraft. While France have Rafale a 4.5 gen aircraft.

Russia has the best designs on weapons, they lack funds. India had to bail out the PAK-FA program.

That's why they order French Mistral,Italian armored vehicles under license etc...
(And.....using French optics on their military gears such as,tanks,attack helicopters and using SAGEM detectors on thermal systems. )

 

[New World]

Back your claims.
Yes,It's easy to say "X has a bigger d.ck than Y" without backing your claims

He might have tested it or might have feel its hardness..

 

[Indian Patriot]

Thanks to the Winter,otherwise they would have taken Moscow and probably advanced more and more inside Russia.

Then why were the Germans unable to stop Russian advance across eastern europe in summer, winter and any other season? Was it the Soviet military or soviet winter that turned USSR into a super power? Why are you guys taking it so personally, I am stating facts here not some general opinion. The Sikh army of early 19th century was arguably the best in Asia after the English. The English had to fight tooth and nail to defeat them. If I say the Sikhs were better army than Napoleon's then it would be wrong. Same case with France and Russia here.

Since the fall of the Soviet Union,they lost many capabilities in naval construction,that's why they seeked technology from abroad....
Just look how they have difficulties with just building some 4-6.000T ships.......
And now they "want" to build an aircraft carrier ? Let me laugh. It's just some propaganda for their people and brainwashed pro-russians,they don't have the capabilities,nor the funds to build one.
Still,Russia's navy is decaying...

The design and innovation is there. They are badly bankrupt when it comes to funds to research, improve and give shape to designs. India had to bankroll the PAK-FA.

The Soviets had some of the best naval designs, their typhoon class submarines is proof of that. They can still build ships. The modern stealth frigates of India, the Shivalik class, were built in Russian shipyards and the Gorshkov was refitted there as well. The Russians can definitely design good ships if they have funds and sadly they are literally bankrupt.

Back your claims.
Yes,It's easy to say "X has a bigger d.ck than Y" without backing your claims.

How is a 4.5 gen Rafale better than a 5 gen PAK-FA? If you are trying to say that 4.5 is superior to 5th gen then you better back your claims with some solid facts and not your passionate patriotism.

That's why they order French Mistral,Italian armored vehicles under license etc...
(And.....using French optics on their military gears such as,tanks,attack helicopters and using SAGEM detectors on thermal systems. )

US uses German tank guns, US/NATO troops used AK-47 and variants in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do not give such childish arguments. Countries import equipment based on several factors. It is not possible or even desirable to have a 100% indigenous capability at least in peace time. There is something called cost of production and simplicity in manufacturing.

It is easier for US to import the Rheinmettal tank gun from Germany than designing and building their own tank gun. Likewise it was cheaper, simpler and easier to buy and modify existing AK 47 rifles and variants rather than waste time and resources in building a new counter-insurgency rifle from scratch. Are you getting the point mon ami?

Russia does not have funds, no denying that. They cannot afford to come up with their own production and implementation of designs and hence they are going for France. They would also go for Israeli or Chinese if it suits them. They are compelled to do so.

If you want to compare Russia vs. France then here are some comparisons for you.

1. Typhoon vs any French submarine.

2. PAK-FA vs. Rafale.

3. Armata vs. LeClerc.

P.S. - The Russian Armata has revolutionised armored vehicle design. Ever heard of any other MBT having an unmanned turret and the features present in Armata?

 

[Manindra]

Then why were the Germans unable to stop Russian advance across eastern europe in summer, winter and any other season? Was it the Soviet military or soviet winter that turned USSR into a super power? Why are you guys taking it so personally, I am stating facts here not some general opinion. The Sikh army of early 19th century was arguably the best in Asia after the English. The English had to fight tooth and nail to defeat them. If I say the Sikhs were better army than Napoleon's then it would be wrong. Same case with France and Russia here.



The design and innovation is there. They are badly bankrupt when it comes to funds to research, improve and give shape to designs. India had to bankroll the PAK-FA.

The Soviets had some of the best naval designs, their typhoon class submarines is proof of that. They can still build ships. The modern stealth frigates of India, the Shivalik class, were built in Russian shipyards and the Gorshkov was refitted there as well. The Russians can definitely design good ships if they have funds and sadly they are literally bankrupt.



How is a 4.5 gen Rafale better than a 5 gen PAK-FA? If you are trying to say that 4.5 is superior to 5th gen then you better back your claims with some solid facts and not your passionate patriotism.



US uses German tank guns, US/NATO troops used AK-47 and variants in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do not give such childish arguments. Countries import equipment based on several factors. It is not possible or even desirable to have a 100% indigenous capability at least in peace time. There is something called cost of production and simplicity in manufacturing.

It is easier for US to import the Rheinmettal tank gun from Germany than designing and building their own tank gun. Likewise it was cheaper, simpler and easier to buy and modify existing AK 47 rifles and variants rather than waste time and resources in building a new counter-insurgency rifle from scratch. Are you getting the point mon ami?

Russia does not have funds, no denying that. They cannot afford to come up with their own production and implementation of designs and hence they are going for France. They would also go for Israeli or Chinese if it suits them. They are compelled to do so.

If you want to compare Russia vs. France then here are some comparisons for you.

1. Typhoon vs any French submarine.

2. PAK-FA vs. Rafale.

3. Armata vs. LeClerc.

P.S. - The Russian Armata has revolutionised armored vehicle design. Ever heard of any other MBT having an unmanned turret and the features present in Armata?

Shivalik class frigates is Indian design built in Indian shipyard.
You confusing it with Talwar class frigate.

 

[Gabriel92]

Then why were the Germans unable to stop Russian advance across eastern europe in summer, winter and any other season?

Was it the Soviet military or soviet winter that turned USSR into a super power? Why are you guys taking it so personally, I am stating facts here not some general opinion. The Sikh army of early 19th century was arguably the best in Asia after the English. The English had to fight tooth and nail to defeat them. If I say the Sikhs were better army than Napoleon's then it would be wrong. Same case with France and Russia here.

Manpower obviously. (cannon fodder army) And because the Russians could produce more tanks,aircrafts etc. than the Germans.
An exemple,the Russians had a production ratio of 1:3,but a ratio of losses of 1.4.4

The design and innovation is there. They are badly bankrupt when it comes to funds to research, improve and give shape to designs. India had to bankroll the PAK-FA.

The Soviets had some of the best naval designs, their typhoon class submarines is proof of that. They can still build ships. The modern stealth frigates of India, the Shivalik class, were built in Russian shipyards and the Gorshkov was refitted there as well. The Russians can definitely design good ships if they have funds and sadly they are literally bankrupt.

Aren't the Shivalik built in India ?? @Abingdonboy @levina

How is a 4.5 gen Rafale better than a 5 gen PAK-FA? If you are trying to say that 4.5 is superior to 5th gen then you better back your claims with some solid facts and not your passionate patriotism.

I didn't state anything,you wrote "Russian aircraft is more advanced than French.",how are Russian aircrafts better than French ? Anything to back your claims ?
It's like if i say "UK makes better submarines than Russia",without backing my claims.. just like that.

US uses German tank guns, US/NATO troops used AK-47 and variants in Iraq and Afghanistan. Do not give such childish arguments. Countries import equipment based on several factors. It is not possible or even desirable to have a 100% indigenous capability at least in peace time. There is something called cost of production and simplicity in manufacturing.

NATO countries that use AKs were part of the eastern bloc (and had their own versions),probably didn't have enough funds to replace them.
Most of the NATO countries are replacing their soviet gears to Western's.

It is easier for US to import the Rheinmettal tank gun from Germany than designing and building their own tank gun. Likewise it was cheaper, simpler and easier to buy and modify existing AK 47 rifles and variants rather than waste time and resources in building a new counter-insurgency rifle from scratch. Are you getting the point mon ami?

The M1 (and other MBTs) were spun off from a joint US-German program to develop a common mbt,with each partner nation responsible for developing specific parts of the tank.

When that program fell through each nation used technology that had already been developed in the joint program in their own MBTs.
Not really sure. @Penguin

Russia does not have funds, no denying that. They cannot afford to come up with their own production and implementation of designs and hence they are going for France. They would also go for Israeli or Chinese if it suits them. They are compelled to do so.

If you want to compare Russia vs. France then here are some comparisons for you.

1. Typhoon vs any French submarine.

2. PAK-FA vs. Rafale.

3. Armata vs. LeClerc.

P.S. - The Russian Armata has revolutionised armored vehicle design. Ever heard of any other MBT having an unmanned turret and the features present in Armata?

(I will use your way to 'compare' them.)

French submarine is better than Typhoon.
Rafale is better than PAKFA.
Leclerc is better than Armata.

 

[Indian Patriot]

Manpower obviously. (cannon fodder army) And because the Russians could produce more tanks,aircrafts etc. than the Germans.
An exemple,the Russians had a production ratio of 1:3,but a ratio of losses of 1.4.4

Name me one war where the commander of one army reduced the number of his troops so that both the opposing sides have the same number of soldiers. Or name me one battle where both armies had the same number of men. In war each side will try to win by putting in the maximum number of troops they can. That is how wars were fought since human history.

Did the allies not use numeric superiority in the western front? You think allied fighters and western allied tanks would have had any fighting chance against Me 262 and Tiger?

The "cannon fodder army" as you call them had one of the best tanks T-34 (some would called IS-2 even better), the best submachine gun PPSH -41, the legendary Katyusha rockets and one of the better ground attack fighters. Your bias is just too obvious.

Aren't the Shivalik built in India ??

My bad. I meant the Talwar class of Frigates. They are the immediate predecessor of the Shivalik class and even the Shivalik class has Russian contribution.

I didn't state anything,you wrote "Russian aircraft is more advanced than French.",how are Russian aircrafts better than French ? Anything to back your claims ?
It's like if i say "UK makes better submarines than Russia",without backing my claims.. just like that.

PAK-FA is Russian and is a 5th gen aircraft and 5th gen aircraft are better than 4/4.5 gen aircraft.

Rafale is French and is a 4/4.5 gen aircraft and hence are inferior to 5th gen aircraft.

If you are still not convinced, PAK-FA has stealth that can elude radars. Does Rafale have any stealth in its design? What's stopping France from building a 5th gen stealth aircraft like PAK-FA?

NATO countries that use AKs were part of the eastern bloc (and had their own versions),probably didn't have enough funds to replace them.
Most of the NATO countries are replacing their soviet gears to Western's.

Now you want to distinguish between NATO? But even then there are ample pictures of NATO+US army + US contractors using AK-47

spin offs. This is not because NATO lacks the technology to make a rifle comparable to AK-47 but because building such a rifle would be a waste of time and resources when it is easier and cheaper to buy off the shelf.

Never heard of outsourcing?

The M1 (and other MBTs) were spun off from a joint US-German program to develop a common mbt,with each partner nation responsible for developing specific parts of the tank.

When that program fell through each nation used technology that had already been developed in the joint program in their own MBTs.
Not really sure.

Strictly for argument's sake lets assume you are right. But is the Rheinmetall gun the only US military import?

The US would be having other military imports. Why is that? Is it because the Americansd lack technology or is it because buying directly from the shelf will save time, effort and money?

French submarine is better than Typhoon.
Rafale is better than PAKFA.
Leclerc is better than Armata.

You are sadly wrong.

Typhoon was better.

PAK-FA is superior by the virtue of being a 5th gen stealth aircraft which the Rafale is certainly NOT.

And Armata is the next generation of tanks. Its a revolution in tank design.

Your posts are guided by your sense of duty towards France rather than on cold logic.

 

[Levina]

Aren't the Shivalik built in India ?? @Abingdonboy @levina

yes

 

[Taygibay]

@Gabriel92

Gab, comme l'a dit Mike2000, pas la peine d'insister! Ses erreurs parlent d'elles-même!

there are ample pictures of NATO+US army + US contractors using AK-47 spin offs. This is not because NATO lacks the technology to make a rifle comparable to AK-47 but because building such a rifle would be a waste of time and resources when it is easier and cheaper to buy off the shelf.

You and I know that A- some NATO nations are ex-Soviet block equipped with these originally and B- that good armed forces train their elite troops to use the enemy's equipment especially when it's a model found worldwide.
He does not probably because he never fought a single day in his life.

The US would be having other military imports.

They do, USCG Dauphin & HC-144 / Army has French radios / +Franco-German Lakotas, etc and yes sometimes because it was the best available. The Yankees are pragmatic, he's not! No convincing is possible there!

PAK-FA is superior by the virtue of being a 5th gen stealth aircraft

Best point, thinking 5th gen is unbeatable pixie dust should disqualify anyone from even joining a condo on a military forum. To which he adds a mistake by not knowing of the stealth features that exist on the Rafale.

Does Rafale have any stealth in its design? What's stopping France from building a 5th gen stealth aircraft like PAK-FA?

The guy doesn't read links but says his opinion is facts

Why are you guys taking it so personally, I am stating facts here not some general opinion.

thinks he can rewrite a thread subject

But we are talking of contemporary history here mostly post 1945.

when the said thread was about ToT as reported by the Russians themselves which he singlehandedly contradicts …
to take their side more than they do … but can remember the subject when confrontational :

But this thread is about France giving technology to Russia. Russia does not need technology what Russia needs is funds to fulfill their projects.

Is such a historian that he thinks Russia defeated the Nazis alone forgetting that "puny" war effort from over the Pond,
D-Day, Dresden and so on.
And despite his handle disses the patriotism of others.

It's really not worth it except to back up our Indian friends in trying to limit the shame needlessly brought to them.
As when he accuses a countryman of pro-French bias.

but you cannot ignore reality because of personal bias.

My guess is that before Internet he held those same discussions by himself in the mirror ending so pissed at himself that he was talking to … err himself! In that sense, we must accept his presence has curative.
Besides, the classic trait of reverting to ad hominem attacks and invectives he exhibits has funny sides to it.
He called me kid in post 20.

I am sorry to burst your bubble kid

Just for shaving 3 decades off, what's more on Father's day, I'll give him a hall pass!

Allez, à + mec, Tay.

 

[Indian Patriot]

In July 2006, “India Orders 3 More Krivak III/Talwar Class Frigates” noted that the Talwar/Krivak Class were better described as modern multi-role designs, given the presence of contemporary classes with far better stealth features. The follow-on Project 17/ Shivalik class program offered improvements in that area, with 3 ships ordered and the possibility of more too follow.

In December 2006, India Defence reported that India was looking to acquire up to 7 more frigates with stealth improvements, plus some level of joint development and technology transfer. The Request for Information (RFI) was reportedly issued to about 12 international firms, mostly in Europe and Russia. These “Project 17A” ships could be worth up to 45,000 crore (INR 450 billion, about $9.23 billion as of June 2009), according to a recently-approved budget. Further reports appear to be confirming 100% construction in India, however, even as they clarify an extended timeline for design and delivery…

India’s Project 17-A Stealth Frigates