Forty-eight dead, 150 injured in Karachi's Shia area bomb attack

[Amaa'n]

yaar we dont pay taxes..its delusional to think that government will do everything...

Here in UK minimum tax is 27% which everybody in Job pays..and goes all the way to 45% on highly paid jobs.
Business men pay at least 20% sales tax and there is no way out...everybody pays.

In such highly paid government's case its fair to expect all from Government...

In Pakistan we fail to pay utility bills what to say of taxes and government isnt as resourceful as we like to think...

brother I know about U.K I have lived their, and even in U.K people have stopped paying taxes. more and more people are opting for cash - in - hand jobs.
If people are not paying taxes then Govt. is paying wages out of their pockets?
I have payed tax and paying my utilitiy bills, I have my right to demand from govt.
I carry a legally procured license handgun for self defence when i go out but their is a difference between arming a group of community and raising a militia and self defence.
what is the guarantee that this militia / armed group / community vigilant group won't go out of hands

 

[EyelessInGaza]

Hyperion- your description of terrorists being funded by donations by people who do not know where their money is going is quite interesting. That doesn't make it any less scary though.

The problem with tackling these some of these madaris is that from what I have read they are now a parallel education system and providers of basic care to many Pakistanis who have no alternate means of education or livelihood. The madaris have filled a gap created by the failure of the Pakistan state. It will be therefore very hard for Pakistan to shut down these places, unless the state provides education and other basic necessities- and that is unlikely to happen (IMO).

Off topic, but on a related note, I recently saw first hand the huge mounts of money that passes through some Hindu temples, the utter lack of accountability and (this may be off topic) the disgusting behavior of the priests for whom this is just a business. It's a ton of money, and given how gullible people are, the tap cannot be switched off just like that. The (big) difference compared to Pakistan is that the priests mostly use the money to enrich themselves (worst case) or run educational Trusts, charities (best case), and not use it to fund violence.

 

[HAIDER]

Today someone told me , he found the half head with face on his cousin from rubble, that's all they found . So, the death toll is extremely high.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

The other Gulf states are taking their ques from elites in Arabia they know it's sink or swim together. And yes, I'm aware of the kinds of questions a small segment of society in Wahabi Arabia is asking but not necessarily within the society but on social networking sites and yes, I will also grant that this has the potential of another Spring playing itself out -- I just don't think it offers us any kind of hope, it's ore a flash in the pan type of eventuality Why? It has to do with Wahabi ideology -- See, questioning corruption as most the social media activity seems abut, is one thing, but focusing on the values of the ideology is quite another and we have not seen that, indeed, we will not see it in my opinion, because their foreign policy is tied to it - The religion police has been restrained, but it is still very much part of the equation and I don't see any ground swell of opinion opposed to the idea of a religion police, or any kind of mass support for notions such as civil lawfully organized civil society -- some see Wahabi ideology as merely objectionable on religious grounds, however, it's a totalitarian ideology that has to do with every facet of life and we do not and I contend will not see any opposition to it, because the public remains pleased with it.

@muse

you simply can't put the blame on the gulf countries for the security incompetencies & corruptions of our own security Establishments , politicians,bureaucrats, civil society @ a large, what about our intelligence agencies seems like they always have prior information, but fails to act on time ! its easier to put the blame on the gulf states, but is extremely hard to put introspections on the security lapses back home of the hard realities , so please quit this easy way out of "Arabs are to blame" syndrome for every thing that is wrong & evil with us collectively as a nation , & instead look within, the gulf states also donated immense aid for development more then any body, if we failed to utilized it by rampant corruptions & investing it @ the wrong place, then the faults lies within ! & not in the gulf !

 

[muse]

@Musa

you simply can't put the blame on the gulf countries for the security incompetencies & corruptions of our own security Establishments , politicians,bureaucrats, civil society @ a large, what about our intelligence agencies seems like they always have prior information, but fails to act on time ! its easier to put the blame on the gulf states, but is extremely hard to put introspections on the security lapses back home of the hard realities , so please quit this easy way out of "Arabs are to blame" syndrome for every thing that is wrong & evil with us collectively as a nation , & instead look within, the gulf states also donated immense aid for development more then any body, if we failed to utilized it by rampant corruptions & investing it @ the wrong place, then the faults lies within ! & not in the gulf !

I don't think anyone familiar with my posts would agree that I absolve our own failures, quite the contrary - I'm keenly aware and conscious that is both not the case and that my posts do not reflect that - however, what I am pointing to is an ideology that is sold to us as Mana from heaven and is in fact a barbarous, murderous, sacrilegious ideology bent on seeking and making enemies - we have also warned that once it fails to find enemies abroad that it will seek them at home (something we know a little something about)

 

[genmirajborgza786]

I don't think anyone familiar with my posts would agree that I absolve our own failures, quite the contrary - I'm keenly aware and conscious that is both not the case and that my posts do not reflect that - however, what I am pointing to is an ideology that is sold to us as Mana from heaven and is in fact a barbarous, murderous, sacrilegious ideology bent on seeking and making enemies - we have also warned that once it fails to find enemies abroad that it will seek them at home (something we know a little something about)

In that case the situation in the GCC states should be very chaotic since the ideology you seem to have pointed @ originates for there but is that the case ? sorry to say no its not , in fact the GCC states are very stable Dubai,Riyadh,Abu dabi are all flourishing & its not them, but Karachi,Quetta,Lahore & Peshawar that is burning why is that ? if our people are such dumb a$$es to fall for those "fatwas" with a hyperactive sense of sentimental & emotional approach to such an extent that theses idiots are ready to kill their own brothers & sisters, then the fault lies in them & not the gulf , as simple as that

 

[muse]

In that case the situation in the GCC states should be very chaotic since the ideology you seem to have pointed @ originates for there but is that case ? sorry to say its not , in fact the GCC states are very stable Dubai,Riyadh,Abu dabi are all flourishing & its not them, but Karachi,Quetta,Lahore,Peshawar that is burning why is that ? if our people are such dumb a$$es to fall for those "fatwas" with a hyperactive sense of sentimental & emotional approach to such an extent that theses idiots are ready to kill their own brothers & sisters, then the fault lies in them & not the gulf & its ideologues as simple as that

I don't think you have carried through the "will seek enemies at home when deprived of enemies abroad" -- thus far Iraq, Syria, Bahrain,Pakistan, the Caucasus, Libya, Mali, Algeria, Soon Tunis and Egypt will ensure that the supply of enemies abroad will continue and keep with funds expended to pursue these enemies. Recall we have already experienced this Afghanistan, Kashmir - the same people were our heroes, remember? and once Afghanistan and Kashmir were closed to them, they found new enemies, their former masters.

 

[muse]

The need for empathy
By Shahid Mahmood
Published: March 6, 2013

The writer is a Canada-based editorial cartoonist and his work has appeared in several international publications

Years ago, I met the retired Canadian general Romeo Dallaire at a gala. He had a quiet dignity about him — someone who has the utmost respect of many, for having exposed the ineptitude of our global response to the Rwanda genocide. Dallaire single-handedly marshalled Canadian, African and Pakistani troops to protect Tutsis hiding out in key urban areas even though his troops were substantially outnumbered and outgunned. Over 100 days, in 1994, 1.2 million Tutsis and their sympathisers were murdered. Dallaire’s individual actions are widely recognised of having saved the lives of over 32,000 people. He wrote in his book, Shake Hands with the Devil, “I know there is a God, because in Rwanda, I shook hands with the devil. I have seen him. I have smelled him and I have touched him. I know the devil exists and, therefore, I know there is a God.”

Of the nine million Jews who once lived in Europe, six million perished at the hands of the Nazis. How could an annihilation of a people at this scale take place? This happened because of the prevailing mindsets towards the Jewish population — biases that ranged from indifference to hostility. The non-Jewish populations impassively watched as former Jewish neighbours were corralled and executed — many benefitting by expropriating their properties. The final death count would have been considerably higher had it not been for thousands of non-Jewish rescuers, who risked their lives to save Jews from being captured and executed. These rescuers were honoured and were called the “Righteous Among the Nations”. Irrespective of faith, these rescuers regarded Jews as fellow human beings. This sincerity stood in sharp contrast to the prevailing public indifference and hostility that existed towards Jews at the time. Many rescuers acted out of ideological or religious convictions, while others were expressing humanity and compassion. These were ordinary humans who served as model citizens.

The adage goes, “The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose that I am here and you are out there”. Both Dallaire and the “Righteous Among the Nations” believed there was no difference between a Tutsi and a Hutu or a German and a Jew. They believed in a common humanity that ties us all together. What are the characteristics of those enlightened few people who are more likely to extend a hand to the persecuted? Is it because those who act are graced with a sense of empathy? Saving your neighbour should not be beyond the capacity of ordinary people — every person should have the ability to make a difference. Empathy is the ability to understand that someone else’s pain is as meaningful as your own.

On March 3, a bomb exploded in a predominantly Shia residential neighbourhood in Karachi, killing at least 48 people. Pakistan, where Shias are a minority group, has been a killing field these past several months. Four hundred Shias have been murdered at the hands of militants. Pakistan is in a state of crisis where citizens are having an extraordinary time mustering empathy to tackle militancy head on. The prevailing culture is more vocal about Palestinian rights than it is about protecting its own minorities. But this is dangerous. There should be no illusion that when each and every minority has been eliminated, the silent Sunni majority will suffer the same fate at the hands of the militants. Khalid Hosseini, in The Kite Runner, writes, “A boy who won’t stand up for himself becomes a man who can’t stand up to anything.”

Pakistan has some considerable growing up to do.

 

[MST]

Hyperion- your description of terrorists being funded by donations by people who do not know where their money is going is quite interesting. That doesn't make it any less scary though.

The problem with tackling these some of these madaris is that from what I have read they are now a parallel education system and providers of basic care to many Pakistanis who have no alternate means of education or livelihood. The madaris have filled a gap created by the failure of the Pakistan state. It will be therefore very hard for Pakistan to shut down these places, unless the state provides education and other basic necessities- and that is unlikely to happen (IMO).

Off topic, but on a related note, I recently saw first hand the huge mounts of money that passes through some Hindu temples, the utter lack of accountability and (this may be off topic) the disgusting behavior of the priests for whom this is just a business. It's a ton of money, and given how gullible people are, the tap cannot be switched off just like that. The (big) difference compared to Pakistan is that the priests mostly use the money to enrich themselves (worst case) or run educational Trusts, charities (best case), and not use it to fund violence.

Can you elaborate more on this. What are you describing as a disgusting behavior? And which temple you saw this.

I hope you do know that temples (any which is worth its name) in India are run by the Government. Every penny that comes in the donation boxes in the Temple goes to the Govt. The priest gets only what the Jajman gives by hand to the priest.

 

[somebozo]

The other Gulf states are taking their ques from elites in Arabia they know it's sink or swim together. And yes, I'm aware of the kinds of questions a small segment of society in Wahabi Arabia is asking but not necessarily within the society but on social networking sites and yes, I will also grant that this has the potential of another Spring playing itself out -- I just don't think it offers us any kind of hope, it's ore a flash in the pan type of eventuality Why? It has to do with Wahabi ideology -- See, questioning corruption as most the social media activity seems abut, is one thing, but focusing on the values of the ideology is quite another and we have not seen that, indeed, we will not see it in my opinion, because their foreign policy is tied to it - The religion police has been restrained, but it is still very much part of the equation and I don't see any ground swell of opinion opposed to the idea of a religion police, or any kind of mass support for notions such as civil lawfully organized civil society -- some see Wahabi ideology as merely objectionable on religious grounds, however, it's a totalitarian ideology that has to do with every facet of life and we do not and I contend will not see any opposition to it, because the public remains pleased with it.

@muse

you simply can't put the blame on the gulf countries for the security incompetencies & corruptions of our own security Establishments , politicians,bureaucrats, civil society @ a large, what about our intelligence agencies seems like they always have prior information, but fails to act on time ! its easier to put the blame on the gulf states, but is extremely hard to put introspections on the security lapses back home of the hard realities , so please quit this easy way out of "Arabs are to blame" syndrome for every thing that is wrong & evil with us collectively as a nation , & instead look within, the gulf states also donated immense aid for development more then any body, if we failed to utilized it by rampant corruptions & investing it @ the wrong place, then the faults lies within ! & not in the gulf !

I don't think anyone familiar with my posts would agree that I absolve our own failures, quite the contrary - I'm keenly aware and conscious that is both not the case and that my posts do not reflect that - however, what I am pointing to is an ideology that is sold to us as Mana from heaven and is in fact a barbarous, murderous, sacrilegious ideology bent on seeking and making enemies - we have also warned that once it fails to find enemies abroad that it will seek them at home (something we know a little something about)

In that case the situation in the GCC states should be very chaotic since the ideology you seem to have pointed @ originates for there but is that the case ? sorry to say no its not , in fact the GCC states are very stable Dubai,Riyadh,Abu dabi are all flourishing & its not them, but Karachi,Quetta,Lahore & Peshawar that is burning why is that ? if our people are such dumb a$$es to fall for those "fatwas" with a hyperactive sense of sentimental & emotional approach to such an extent that theses idiots are ready to kill their own brothers & sisters, then the fault lies in them & not the gulf , as simple as that

I don't think you have carried through the "will seek enemies at home when deprived of enemies abroad" -- thus far Iraq, Syria, Bahrain,Pakistan, the Caucasus, Libya, Mali, Algeria, Soon Tunis and Egypt will ensure that the supply of enemies abroad will continue and keep with funds expended to pursue these enemies. Recall we have already experienced this Afghanistan, Kashmir - the same people were our heroes, remember? and once Afghanistan and Kashmir were closed to them, they found new enemies, their former masters.

@muse @genmirajborgza786

Nothing would have said it better than the two of you and excellent analysis of salafacist mentality. As long as enemies are found abroad the ideology will find an export market which provides legitimacy to the monarchies at home. While some reforms are happening, they are like a pinch of salt in a bucket of water. There is still no wide spread sense of civilization. Women rights remain in the back burner, equality and rights to citizenship are still a taboo. Rules and laws are still imposed by the will of ruling elite rather than public consensus. While the powers of religious police are curtailed the entire backward concept is yet to be dissolved and overall Arab culture remains one of the most backward on earth!


The establishment of Pakistan, especially the army and intelligence agencies should be bought to accountability for creating a ripe import market for such extremist ideologies. No denying the fact that Army and ISI have pushed the nation into a sinkhole for few pennies to satisfy their own materialistic greed. Kemalist Turkey was made on grass root reforms which propagated wide spread scientific education through thousands of new schools and colleges as opposed to the madarassah doctrine of ottomans!

And i wonder how this thread changed into an anti wahabi,anti saudi thread when the incident in discussion was a terrorism incident in Karachi.

.

The two cannot be dehypenated. The prejudiced, primitive and backward indoctrination practiced at home in Arabia has its far reaching implications on international scale.

 

[somebozo]

He boils both our bloods not just you, that bastard have done more damage to KSA than any other place. I still celebrate the day of his passing annulay.

Well, you can't expect us to monitor each and every single dollar coming out of our country now can you? A friend of my uncle transferred 1 Milion dollars to Malysia and exactly about 30 minutes later Mabhith GMCs and Jeebs came and took him away for questioning and interrogation as to what is the reason for the transfer of this large sum. The guy was just transferring company investments.
You can't expect us to do more than that now can you?

You guys need a Similar system.

Much more money funnels into Pakistan from countries other than Saudi Arabia or GCC but that money does not end up into terrorist hand. The core of the problem is the primitive, prejudiced and backward indoctrination practiced in Arabia in the name of religion which makes people sympathetic towards anyone with a beard and religious outlook collecting donations. If the ideology did not exist, people will not donate to such crooks. We live in an internationally connected world its time to take responsibility!

Terrorism financing during Fahad time was a deliberate state policy to make the king look like a great patron of Islam and Muslims struggle. Not much as changed since then, Saudi Arabia just financed a massive islamic center in post-war Afghanistan when the country desperately needs education, industry and jobs rather than religion.

 

[muse]

Excellent post Bozo - indeed Army has much to answer for -- and just my take, but I agree that while we may see a spring work itself to extinction in Arabia, it will do so becuae some fundamentals are missing - but then again, they claim they have "change slowly" policy - glacial actually

 

[somebozo]

Mate, you need to go to Saudia, and see the MONUMENTAL shift in their thinking... how they have shifted polarities. They are waking up and questioning EVERYTHING. You can NOT begin to imagine what's going on RIGHT NOW... Yes, we got fucked in mean time, however, trust me the same thing will happen in Pakistan and equilibrium will be restored.

A typical Saudi citizen thinking has always been about career, bread and butter, having some fun and probably party in Dubai or Istanbul once a lifetime. The mentality is completely different when it comes to real-politics so don't take one for the other. Only a fool would do that.

The so called shift is non-existent because a majority of Saudi's are still ardent with their backward primitive life-style and consider it an obligation to export it to others. Arab culture remains the most backward in 21st century. Through out history, successfully reforms have only happens at dramatic pace. Nazi Germany & Kemalist Turkey are two examples. There is no recipe to reforming slowly, that's only a tactic to mislead the world. As a matter of fact the monarchy would fall if it displeases the Aal As Shaikh!

I have always rubbed shoulders with the elite echelons of Saudi society. One can look upto Binladens, Bagedo's, Al Esyai's, Dehlawi's, Bugshan's and never comprehend that these affluent people living an upper lifestyle could be patrons of such backward and primitive ideologies until one see's actively taking part into financing them. Does anyone remember Al Quaida golden chain?? It is composed of some of the most respectable, wealthy and affluent personalities of Saudi Arabia which can be interpreted as sane, modern, forward thinking, bright minded and educated elites by any angle of evaluation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Golden_Chain

So, because this is a question of "ideology", Wahabi ideology to be specific, that is to say that this ideology needs and see enemies, it is delusional to think that an elderly monarch with one leg in the grave, will be able to turn back this ideology, especially since it is tied to their foreign policy itself, here think Libya, Bahrain, Iraq and Syria

Exporting the ideology is the fundamental of nationaly security for all theocratist state. The Ummayads, Abbasids, Ottoman, Khomenist and Al Saud's - no execption. The core need is to dissolve the country as a theocratic state and bring in secular reforms. That seems far fetched because Quran still remains the official constitution of Saudi Arabia.

So I have an Indian Muslim friend, IT guy, very bright, very ambitious - anyways, this is from last year if I remember correctly, He was in Arabia for a business meeting - the meeting went well, the Friday he went to offer prayers before playing back, he said the imam in his Qutba asked for help for the "Afghan Brothers" (Talib), he said he saw with own eyes people giving cash, checks, some even valuables from their homes -- now can the Saudi authorities clamp down on every mosque and Imam, well that presupposes that they actually want to --- I'm convinced that people in Arabia, not just the govt, simply do not realize that in the places they spend money, people hate them, because the people have to deal with the real consequences.

Of course some don't care if hy are hated, to them it's confirmation that they are doing the right thing, but this monster needs enemies, when it cannot find enemies abroad, it will find them at home - that should be sobering.

I am skeptical of this story because for last 5-6 years, mosques are banned to initiate any donation drive, collect cash or valuable or even have donation boxes. The fact that your friend went there for a business meeting means he must be staying somewhere in a metropolitan area and this simply cannot happen. I could have believe it if he went to some village or Asir or Nejd.

 

[muse]

I am skeptical of this story because for last 5-6 years, mosques are banned to initiate any donation drive, collect cash or valuable or even have donation boxes. The fact that your friend went there for a business meeting means he must be staying somewhere in a metropolitan area and this simply cannot happen. I could have believe it if he went to some village or Asir or Nejd.

But he has no reason to concoct this story -my strong impression was that he was relaying his personal experience.

Quran as constitution -- it can anything you want it to be --- and of course it's this kind of thinking that has infected many Pakistanis, they no longer see themselves as citizens but as confessional groups - People seem to think that they can forget the distinctions between Sin and Crime

I think Ahmadis were declared kafirs by government.and hence the discrimination. If tomorrow some majority government is formed by sunnis they may dexlare shias as kafirs too. What is the chance of sunnis coming in power and declaring shias as kafir. ?

Or any other group, this Takfiri rubbish has to come to an end - Pakistan is a Republic, and all Pakistanis equal before the law (unless we go medieval on your Azz) in which case there is no Pakistan --- This essential, better yet, fundamental, bei Insafi (and therefore the appeal of the notion of Tehreek e Insaaf) is at the root of much of malise that has gripped Pakistan --- Whose Pakistan's? Just recently the leJ suggest that Pakistan be a Wahabi state -- think it over friends, either we are all safe, or none of us is -- and don't think your turn will not come - Enemy seeking and enemy making is an endless endeavor, unless it is made redundant by all.

Today you have to make a declaration of being Muslim, tomorrow when you have to declare that you hold Abdul Wahab or some other, some Ayatollah, in high regard and negate some one , you may begin to understand that you are not special, just more grist for the mill

Civil society is about rights and responsibilities, whereas the religious outlook of Obligations and duties, one is master in the public realm, the other in the private - so long as they stay in their realms there is an assurance of peaceful society

 

[genmirajborgza786]

@WebMaster : So @Mosamania is banned but all those who are spewing bile against the Arabs with their Wahabi this & Wahabi that BS get to stay !

totally agree with you

Webby chief, muse unnecessarily derails threads by his wahabi bashing card & keeps going on & on with it, spoiling the whole atmosphere of the debate, he has done this often