For those who are doubting me and even ISPR...we have downed at least 2 jets.

[crankthatskunk]

So what is your conclusion my friend?

I have already stated it above. My Analysis is clear. After PAF taking control of the skies in IoK with the help of EW airborne and AWACS, should have caused lot more damage to IAF jets, even if we discard the damage from ground bombings on 6 targets. I think PAF did cause far more damage than accepted.
They are hiding the truth for whatever reasons.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have already stated it above. My Analysis is clear. After PAF taking control of the skies in IoK with the help of EW airborne and AWACS, should have caused lot more damage to IAF jets, even if we discard the damage from ground bombings on 6 targets. I think PAF did cause far more damage than accepted.
They are hiding the truth for whatever reasons.

What’s the point of inflicting damage? To inflict pain on the other side and deter it, correct? If the PAF inflicted significantly greater damage on the Indian military than it wants to acknowledge publicly to let Modi save face and not force him to retaliate, then the Indians still know what they suffered and whether Pakistan publicizes it or not right now won’t change that.

Pakistan doesn’t want a war or a larger military conflict. Modi is an extremist who runs on jingoism and Hindu nationalism, and rubbing his face in the dirt publicly is likely to push him into irrational and unlredictable actions. Heck, there’s still a chance that regardless of how much restraint the PAF showed that Modi might still act irrationally, but Pakistan needs to atleast try to cool things down by acting responsibly and with prudence.

 

[crankthatskunk]

What’s the point of inflicting damage? To inflict pain on the other side and deter it, correct? If the PAF inflicted significantly greater damage on the Indian military than it wants to acknowledge publicly to let Modi save face and not force him to retaliate, then the Indians still know what they suffered and whether Pakistan publicizes it or not right now won’t change that.

Pakistan doesn’t want a war or a larger military conflict. Modi is an extremist who runs on jingoism and Hindu nationalism, and rubbing his face in the dirt publicly is likely to push him into irrational and unlredictable actions. Heck, there’s still a chance that regardless of how much restraint the PAF showed that Modi might still act irrationally, but Pakistan needs to atleast try to cool things down by acting responsibly and with prudence.

You see my friend you put forward a point of view and reason/hypothesis, but then rejected it yourself that Modi/India still may ignite a war.
What you want me to say!! One thing is certain from your post, you are still trying to give the defeatist point of view, which has not worked in the past and wouldn't work in the future.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You see my friend you put forward a point of view and reason/hypothesis, but then rejected it yourself that Modi/India still may ignite a war.
What you want me to say!! One thing is certain from your post, you are still trying to give the defeatist point of view, which has not worked in the past and wouldn't work in the future.

You’re saying that not publicizing Indian losses is defeatist or that those losses were not inflicted to begin with?

 

[Imad.Khan]

Why would India refuse to accept his body!!
And if he was an Indian Pilot, why we didn't disclose it!!
What was stopping us from the disclosure!!
It would have proven that we downed two IAF jets.
Things are not adding up mate.
Death while shoot down is possible. Pakistan should have shown his body to the world and hand it over to the Red Cross. Why this is not adopted!!!

I agree, how does it benefit Pakistan by not disclosing the Indian Dead pilot. Infact wouldn't it be to our advantage to show the world that India is refusing to even accept their own died pilot.

Even if we look at it strategically, having declared that 2nd pilot is dead would have caused even further reduction of moral on the Indian side. On top we could have even added a bit more masala by saying they not accepting his body because he was a Sikh. This would even help to flare up the Hindu Sikh divide.

Finally Su30s are twin pilot aircrafts. So that means there should be a third pilot somewhere.

So many things that don't add up

 

[ShaikhKamal]

I agree, how does it benefit Pakistan by not disclosing the Indian Dead pilot. Infact wouldn't it be to our advantage to show the world that India is refusing to even accept their own died pilot.

Finally Su30s are twin pilot aircrafts. So that means there should be a third pilot somewhere.

So many things that don't add up

Exactly ! If the situation was reversed and India had the PAF Pilot body then they would have painted the world with his photos. Either ISPR tell the whole truth or just deny the news about the body of second IAF pilot.

 

[tamir]

As much as I would like concrete evidence on the 2nd plane... I also understand that there are probably reasons for not presenting it at the moment.

Members in this forum are getting their panties in bunch because the Armed Forces did not do this or that etc. Let’s leave it to the professionals that are trained for this purpose. This is not a video game.

Anyway, we have way too much time on our hands posting stuff and snipping at each other.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Exactly ! If the situation was reversed and India had the PAF Pilot body then they would have painted the world with his photos. Either ISPR tell the whole truth or just deny the news about the body of second IAF pilot.

How can ISPR deny it!! DG ISPR said it in Kamran Khan's program that they had second body of a dead pilot.
This program is reproduced here on this thread, I provided it 2 weeks ago in response to a request from a member here.
Pakistanis, be it the politicians , be it the military, or even people here always speak from position of the weakness against India. I have failed to understand this behavior.
Even IK's demeanor was little odd when he spoke in the NA, but at least he followed up on his promise that Pakistan would respond.
Indians are becoming embolden day by day. You just have to read their comments on social media. Damn they are arrogant little weasels.

 

[ShaikhKamal]

Indians are becoming embolden day by day. You just have to read their comments on social media. Damn they are arrogant little weasels.

These Indians are even attacking Pakistan on Youtube chat of live Al-Jazeera telecast covering the Ukrainian elections which has nothing to do with Pakistan and joining with anti-Muslim from Europe and America. While ISPR is acting strangely by not revealing the information about the second pilot.

 

[SQ8]

Two jets were taken down - we owned the air during that particular engagement. Its known and settled.
Future engagements may not go our way if we let this get to our heads.

Moreover, things closer to the ground have been fairly grim for us(and them too) which no one is discussing as such.

 

[Yaseen1]

I think we should avoid further discussion on this topic as it project our insecurity and doubt about claim of downing su30 if we repeatedly try to prove it

 

[TheNoob]

I think we should avoid further discussion on this topic as it project our insecurity and doubt about claim of downing su30 if we repeatedly try to prove it

Exactly.
The incident happened, now let it stay in the past.

I dont think chest thumping or acting insecure about losses/wins is going to make us any better.

 

[GriffinsRule]

@Khafee @HRK

DG ISPR never retracted from his statements about second pilot but our keyboard warriors start doubting him since because of peace initiatives we hided the transfer of body to red cross (SU-30 second pilot).

Except there is no proof to such a hand over. It is a feel good belief on our side until there is actual corroboration of this fact with evidence. Until then, we can say its a IAF pilot and they can say its a PAF pilot.

I would add to this. If the pilot was injured and died in our custody, why didnt we release his picture to the media at least so his family in India would get their soldier son back as well as hold their military accountable. Would have hit their morale very hard as well so I don't see any logical reason behind not disclosing more information regarding this phantom pilot.

 

[Microsoft]

Except there is no proof to such a hand over. It is a feel good belief on our side until there is actual corroboration of this fact with evidence. Until then, we can say its a IAF pilot and they can say its a PAF pilot.

- 2 jets shot down according to various videos.
- Pak PM acknowledges 2 jets shot down
- Pak FM credits 2 pilots with 2 kills
- PAF pilots celebrate right after shooting down of Mig-21 (Hassan Siddiqui kill)
- India claims F-16 shot by Abhinandan missile -> Pakistan shows none of the 4 missiles fired
- No one of credibility from Indian side claims F-16. They point to enigmatic "Shahzaz ud Din"

Do you seriously believe the second plane was PAF? Why is there no jubilation from IAF? Why is Modi's arsehole asking for Rafales if Mig can shoot down F-16?

There is plenty of evidence to disprove the claim that the second plane is of PAF. Hence it must be Indian plane. Which one? That is harder to prove.

 

[GriffinsRule]

- 2 jets shot down according to various videos.
- Pak PM acknowledges 2 jets shot down
- Pak FM credits 2 pilots with 2 kills
- PAF pilots celebrate right after shooting down of Mig-21 (Hassan Siddiqui kill)
- India claims F-16 shot by Abhinandan missile -> Pakistan shows none of the 4 missiles fired
- No one of credibility from Indian side claims F-16. They point to enigmatic "Shahzaz ud Din"

Do you seriously believe the second plane was PAF? Why is there no jubilation from IAF? Why is Modi's arsehole asking for Rafales if Mig can shoot down F-16?

There is plenty of evidence to disprove the claim that the second plane is of PAF. Hence it must be Indian plane. Which one? That is harder to prove.

That is not real evidence.