Flashback- PAF evaluating Mirage 2000

[monitor]

Had it not been for America's willingness to sell the F-16, I reckon the PAF would have gone the route of a few Mirage 2000s supported by a larger number of Mirage F-1s. Prior to the availability of the F-16, the M2K and Mirage F-1 were listed by the PAF as its lead options. As per Wiki Leaks, the U.S. had even assured the PAF that it would lobby for term financing/loans to make the purchase of said fighters possible.

The good thing about the Mirage F-1 was that it had a good airframe design, but it was relatively under-powered by due the Atar turbojet engines (also used on the Mirage III/5). I think the PAF might have been in the mood to push for the F-1 to be re-engined with a turbofan - i.e. Snecma M53. Buy 1~2 M2K squadrons and pair them up with a higher number of re-engined and upgraded Mirage F-1s.

Having such Mirage F-1s by the 1990s would have negated the need for F-7s. It would have also given a lot more time for the development of an in-house fighter - instead of a lightweight Super-7, the PAF might have gone ahead for a medium-weight design.

don't get your point . whats the relation with getting F1 with the development of super-7 or medium weight fighter . I think its PAF's short sightness about the emerging threat or economic owe for the development of light weight fighter like super-7 then JF -17 project. If you had joined the J-10 project that would now give more powerful picture for PAF . getting license production of J-10A as replacement of A-5/F-7/ mirage and then a good number of upgraded J-10B/C for supplementing F-16 .

 

[Imran Khan]

for me its good that we did not went to M2. france suck last drop of our blood then.

 

[Jugger]

Incompetence , corruption , lack of broad vision on part of PAF bosses has reduced the credibility of this air force.
And maybe a clear understanding that India will not attack and will not be an agressor in the near future has caused lethargy for acquiring new platforms.

 

[Raider 21]

Hi,

In a similar manner---the Sabre F86 was a better fighter at higher altitude---and the Gnat at lower altitudes---.

Now---where goes the MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE---.

It seems like---if one machine is better than the other---then it is better than the other---the operator cannot do much accordingly---.

But according to the Paf philosophy or claim of fame---THE MAN BEHIND THE MACHINE makes the difference---so where did that claim go in case of the M2K's vs F16's.

Not only PAF.....UAEAF as well. They went against a possible procurement of further Mirage 2000s and Rafales....they settled comfortably with custom-built F-16s. But yes had PAF managed to acquire Mirage 2000s as they were being offered with full BVR capabilities then they would have shot down almost 3 times the number of jets they bagged down with Vipers in the 1980s (source : PAF Viper drivers who flew in combat back in the 1980s).

Mashallah Amjad Sahib big lad and warrior back then

Great pilot and officer. He was part of the second batch of pilots who flew F-16s at Hill AFB, Utah for their Viper conversion and instructor pilot course. A friendly fire incident unfortunately grounded him and following that he retired from PAF.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

don't get your point . whats the relation with getting F1 with the development of super-7 or medium weight fighter . I think its PAF's short sightness about the emerging threat or economic owe for the development of light weight fighter like super-7 then JF -17 project. If you had joined the J-10 project that would now give more powerful picture for PAF . getting license production of J-10A as replacement of A-5/F-7/ mirage and then a good number of upgraded J-10B/C for supplementing F-16 .

A re-engined F-1 with a modern radar, avionics and EW/ECM suite would have been as good as Block-I JF-17s. Morocco's F-1s have the same quality hardware as the JF-17 today in most respects, but the F-1's engine is underpowered. Had the PAF secured a re-engined and upgraded F-1 with local manufacturing in the 1980s, it'd still be flying them today with comfort. With such a platform in place, it'd have no need for the Super-7; rather, an in-house platform would've been like the J-10.

 

[Sage]

Not only PAF.....UAEAF as well. They went against a possible procurement of further Mirage 2000s and Rafales....they settled comfortably with custom-built F-16s. But yes had PAF managed to acquire Mirage 2000s as they were being offered with full BVR capabilities then they would have shot down almost 3 times the number of jets they bagged down with Vipers in the 1980s (source : PAF Viper drivers who flew in combat back in the 1980s).


Great pilot and officer. He was part of the second batch of pilots who flew F-16s at Hill AFB, Utah for their Viper conversion and instructor pilot course. A friendly fire incident unfortunately grounded him and following that he retired from PAF.

Friendly fire ...? Are you saying that he was the guy who shot his wingman during the Soviet-Afghan war ?

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Is there any plane which PAF didn't Evaluate??

Mirage-2000
EFT
European Panavia Tornado MRCA
an offer from Poland for the supply of MiG-29 and Su-27 were also considered but nothing materialised.
Rafales
J-10's
Still evaluating J-31
Saab JAS-39 Gripen by Sweden


But in the end PAF's Love for F-16 is never ending

 

[MastanKhan]

Had it not been for America's willingness to sell the F-16, I reckon the PAF would have gone the route of a few Mirage 2000s supported by a larger number of Mirage F-1s. Prior to the availability of the F-16, the M2K and Mirage F-1 were listed by the PAF as its lead options. As per Wiki Leaks, the U.S. had even assured the PAF that it would lobby for term financing/loans to make the purchase of said fighters possible.

The good thing about the Mirage F-1 was that it had a good airframe design, but it was relatively under-powered by due the Atar turbojet engines (also used on the Mirage III/5). I think the PAF might have been in the mood to push for the F-1 to be re-engined with a turbofan - i.e. Snecma M53. Buy 1~2 M2K squadrons and pair them up with a higher number of re-engined and upgraded Mirage F-1s.

Having such Mirage F-1s by the 1990s would have negated the need for F-7s. It would have also given a lot more time for the development of an in-house fighter - instead of a lightweight Super-7, the PAF might have gone ahead for a medium-weight design.

Hi,

And we would have been operating a JF17 type aircraft for around 3 decades in the shape and form of the Mirage F1

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Hi,

And we would have been operating a JF17 type aircraft for around 3 decades in the shape and form of the Mirage F1

...except in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s, and no F-7P/PGs.

 

[YeBeWarned]

...except in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s, and no F-7P/PGs.

is our F-7/PG's are under-powered ?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

is our F-7/PG's are under-powered ?

Nope. They're perfectly fine in terms of weight and output. But the Mirage F-1 with M53, Grifo-S7 or RC-400, EW/ECM suite, BVRAAM, all-aspect WVRAAM and precision-strike capability (via targeting pod) would have been a much sweeter steed for the 1990s.

In fact, Dassault designed the Mirage F-1 with M53 (dubbed Mirage F-1.M53) as a competitor to the F-16. It wasn't as technically advanced, but like the F-20, it would have done fine as a lightweight multi-role fighter. Had the U.S. not budged on the F-16s, I think the PAF might have had France resurrect this program:

First flown on 22 December 1974, and built as an engine test bed under official contract, the Mirage F1.M53 was also envisaged as the basis for a contender in the contest to find a successor for the Lockheed F-104G in service with Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands and Norway. Evolved from the basic Atar 9K-50 turbojet-powered Mirage F1C, the Mirage F1.M53 - referred to for a brief period as the "F1E", the suffix letter signifying Exportation and the designation subsequently being reassigned - was powered by the SNECMA M53 turbofan rated at 5550kg dry and 8500kg with maximum afterburning. M53 installation involved significant fuselage structural redesign, and to provide suitability for ground attack and long-range interdiction tasks in addition to that of interception, provision was made for multi-role avionics.

http://www.aviastar.org/air/france/dassault_mirage_f-1_m53.php

@MastanKhan

 

[Raider 21]

Friendly fire ...? Are you saying that he was the guy who shot his wingman during the Soviet-Afghan war ?

Yes that incident.

 

[Sulman Badshah]

 

[el nino]

Is there any plane which PAF didn't Evaluate??

Mirage-2000
EFT
European Panavia Tornado MRCA
an offer from Poland for the supply of MiG-29 and Su-27 were also considered but nothing materialised.
Rafales
J-10's
Still evaluating J-31
Saab JAS-39 Gripen by Sweden


But in the end PAF's Love for F-16 is never ending

THIS IS SO TRUE.

Pakistan will evaluate SU35 & J31 in coming years.#

Then they will order used F16s and small batch of F16/52

 

[ali_raza]

m2k has become a long lost love for some people here