FLASH! Gripen Demo Clears Leh Trials!

[sancho]

We cannot afford to be reliant on a partner who has nothing else to offer and who may have only two or three air forces operating their aircraft. Their costs will be high and it is we who will be paying them.

Who said it has nothing else on offer? Meteor missile, ToT, radar source codes, integration of Kaveri engine, sanction prove, reliable partner since decades, with an exellent reputation in IAF and it's pilots. All things that the US fighters can't offer right?

A mixture of F-18's & the Gripen NG would, in my view be the best choice for us

I agree that this would be a good combo, but why not simply thake the Rafale? It is as agile as the Gripen NG, offers the same advantages in BVR (low RCS and Meteor missile), but on the other side it offers a comparable A2G performance as the F18SH and is also available for IN too. When it comes to performance, it is clearly the mix that you are searching for, but of course that all has it's costs.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

lol.Why do Indians suffer from Mood Swings.

I mean sometimes all indians think EF is best.Some times F-18.Now everybody thinks Rafale is best and some also think Gripen is best.

I say get EF.Its much better than rafale in RCS and engines.And if failed high altitude test does it matter simply base the squadrons in Rajasthan or Punjab.

It is not where to base the plane, it is where these planes r going strike. And who the adversary is....
About the Mood swings "opinion Differs".

I mean sometimes all indians think EF is best.Some times F-18.Now everybody thinks Rafale is best and some also think Gripen is best.

Some times not all INDIANS some INDIANS.

 

[deckingraj]

Rafale is also my choice but would you mind telling me wrt political gains which France and Sweden offers?

Let me take a stab at it... However please note that these are my personal views so can be 100% wrong...

Please do not underestimate France....They are permanent member of Security Council and have a veto power...Mind it i am not saying that France will bent forward and backward if India chooses Rafale, all i am saying is that they cannot be underestimated...


As far as Political gains is concerned then i don't think it will have much impact on Geo-Politics however here is my take on pros and cons purely from strategic perspective. There is a common understanding that if you want to avoid a war make your defence strong enough that enemy do not dare to challenge you...There are two aspects of achieving this...

- Keep Growing
- Deny Growth of your adversary...

Let me dwell more into it...

Look at our potential forces that can challenge IAF...namely PAF and PLAF. Now all the contenders in MRCA are state of art planes and considered best in one aspect or another... As far as PLAF goes apart from Mig-35 they cannot lay their hands on anything else....As of now nothing has been heard even about that...Now lets see what all can PAF opt for...


- Saab Gripen(Sweden) - Possible sale to Pakistan
- Eurofighter Typhoon - Too Costly for Pakistan
- Dassault Rafale(France) - Possible Sale to Pakistan
- Mikoyan MiG-35(Russia) - Great relations with them and more than enough projects to keep them interested
- F-16IN and F/A-18IN(America) - Relations improving and more than enough projects to keep them interested. Apart from few F16 nothing has been offered to PAF so far...


Now if you look from that perspective if we order a mix of Gripen and Rafale then we are pretty much making sure that PAF depends even more on China to keep their dwindling parity in respectable check... So far JF17 avionics upgrade has been put on hold and if they would be doing more than enough to either rewamp the deal or have similar deal with some one else to get their hands on western avionics.....Mind it i am not saying Chinese avionics are crap but they are not as good as western avionics(atleast that is the perception) and they need some more time to come to respectable terms...

So yes there are lot of strategic importance to this deal...Not to forget this would be only deal of its kind and thus we must reap maximum benefits out of it...Current Geo-Politics and our Economy favor us even more...Thereafter era of 5 generation fighters will start and with the success of Tejas and parallel Indian program's for 5 Generation Fighters you never know how indegenous we would look in future....

P.S : If we can deny or derail PAF modernization program thereby denting the already dwindling Parity and gain more Parity viz-a-viz China backed up with successful 5 generation fighter programs then certainly IAF will rule South Asian skies....

 

[sancho]

Look at our potential forces that can challenge IAF...namely PAF and PLAF. Now all the contenders in MRCA are state of art planes and considered best in one aspect or another... As far as PLAF goes apart from Mig-35 they cannot lay their hands on anything else....As of now nothing has been heard even about that...Now lets see what all can PAF opt for...


- Saab Gripen(Sweden) - Possible sale to Pakistan
- Eurofighter Typhoon - Too Costly for Pakistan
- Dassault Rafale(France) - Possible Sale to Pakistan
- Mikoyan MiG-35(Russia) - Great relations with them and more than enough projects to keep them interested
- F-16IN and F/A-18IN(America) - Relations improving and more than enough projects to keep them interested. Apart from few F16 nothing has been offered to PAF so far...

Good analysis! The only point where I would add some things are the fighters that PAF could lay their hands on. The older Gripen was offered to PAF earlier from Saab, but in that time the Swedish gov. rejected the sale. Gripen NG would not make much sense for PAF, because they already have the JF 17 and can get the J10B, which could end up even better and cheaper than the Gripen. Similar design and most likely similar payload, but more thrust, maybe even TVC. The only advantages the NG has are weapons and techs, but PAF can possibly upgrade them with western parts, just like they try with JF 17. That all will rule out the NG for sure.
EF new is obviously too costly, but they could get some used T1 like Romania now has on offer, the question is, does PAF want a fighter that is only usefull for air superiority in small numbers and without AESA radar and slightly highter costs than those J10Bs?
Imo the biggest chance of foreign fighters for PAF would be Rafale, or F18SH, besides the J11 of course. PAF needs a twin engine fighter to counter MKI and MMRCAs in the long term and if they can get the money, these will be the best choices.
No matter how we improve the relation to the US, they will put their interests first and they need Pakistan in war on terror and so far they will keep selling them arms of course and F18SH is at the moment the only possible choice.
And when it comes to France, it is obvious that if we don't buy Rafale, they will offer them to PAF sooner or later and PAF officials was even in France regarding Rafale.
Rafale for PAF would be very dangerous for India, because it offers not only excellent air defense capabilities to counter IAF fighters, but also strong strike capabilities. In Kargil IAF was able to detect PAF fighters way before they could enter our airspace, now with AWACS, upgraded F16s and B52s, their offensive capabilities improved, but with an twin engine Rafale, they would be a serious opponent for us, even if we can maintain the numerical superiority.

One more reason not only to buy the Rafale, but to get the French closer to us and limit the access on western techs to Pakistan. I wished we had offered them to team up on Rafale F4 like UAE does now, because the Rafale could have been perfect to start a partnership between both nations and also Dassault and HAL. The LCA could gain so much by their help (AESA radar, IRST, A2G weapons like AASM, Scalp, or to make it carrier capable). But the longer we wait the less will be left, with Brazil, UAE and Kuwait close to buy the Rafale now.

 

[deckingraj]

^^^^^
My 2 cents...thanks for further explaining

 

[honour]

nt only Information bt PAF pilot wENT TO france.

bt we selected J-10 BECAUSE of lack of defence budget only about 5 Bn and now defence budget is 9.5bn and is expected to increase to 12bn..and j-10B deal is nt yet signed
so if you donot select then i am sure PAF will go for rafale..and they will provide us the jf-17 upgradtion which will make jf-17 a deadly aircaft in its class

still i dont feel jf-17 will get a chance of upgradation due to mirage upgradation deal and avioncs for su-30mki...which is overall a bigger deal than the whole jf-17 pack.....

also pakistan was offered mirage-2000-5 earlier with less firepower but PAF rejected it...then french tried to sell these planes to a series of countries which nearly failed..so when Pakistan asked for information...dassault decided to sell these air crafts to Pakistan...but after arm twisting by US and issue of mmrca rfp led to pull back by dassault...moreover the pilots were only asked to visit the production lines so as to check its compatibility with mirage -3/5 maintainable levels....however France still denies that...so let the official version in the play.....also while searching rafale connection with pakistan....I came to a post by some pakistani journalist who wrote in the favour of rafale saying that gripen will not be given to pakistan as the swidish parliament will not allow it as it has american engine who still want to feed F-16's to pakistan.....

 

[sancho]

still i dont feel jf-17 will get a chance of upgradation due to mirage upgradation deal and avioncs for su-30mki...which is overall a bigger deal than the whole jf-17 pack.....

also pakistan was offered mirage-2000-5 earlier with less firepower but PAF rejected it...then french tried to sell these planes to a series of countries which nearly failed..so when Pakistan asked for information...dassault decided to sell these air crafts to Pakistan...but after arm twisting by US and issue of mmrca rfp led to pull back by dassault...moreover the pilots were only asked to visit the production lines so as to check its compatibility with mirage -3/5 maintainable levels....however France still denies that...so let the official version in the play.....also while searching rafale connection with pakistan....I came to a post by some pakistani journalist who wrote in the favour of rafale saying that gripen will not be given to pakistan as the swidish parliament will not allow it as it has american engine who still want to feed F-16's to pakistan.....

At the end it is about money making, that's why the US sells us now everything, although Pakistan are their alleys, that's why Russia supplied RD 93 engines for JF 17 and why sooner, or later they will get the Mirage 2000 package too. Even the German subs will be sold, if we decide to go with Russians.
The point for us is only, as long as we get the better arms and techs, we can maintain the superiority!
They get F16 B52, we can get F18SH, or even F35
They get RD 93 engines, we can get Mig 29Ks and Pak Fa
They get M2k package, we can get Rafale...
As long as we are always one step ahaed, it shouldn't be a major problem.

 

[mohit]

lol.Why do Indians suffer from Mood Swings.

I mean sometimes all indians think EF is best.Some times F-18.Now everybody thinks Rafale is best and some also think Gripen is best.

I say get EF.Its much better than rafale in RCS and engines.And if failed high altitude test does it matter simply base the squadrons in Rajasthan or Punjab.

It's kinda like me staying.. why do all pakistani's generalize things?

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion..

 

[peacemaker10]

lol.Why do Indians suffer from Mood Swings.

I mean sometimes all indians think EF is best.Some times F-18.Now everybody thinks Rafale is best and some also think Gripen is best.

I say get EF.Its much better than rafale in RCS and engines.And if failed high altitude test does it matter simply base the squadrons in Rajasthan or Punjab.

The problem is my friend, too much great choices is also sometimes confusing. What you looking here is one good example of it. If we had only offer say for example Mig-35, it would have been purchased without any fuss. However all six aircrafts are best in the world so choosing best from the best is not very easy. So whatever aircraft we get at last would be among the best in the world.

I've seen so many videos and pictures and specifications of all the six planes its virtually impossible to sigle out any one straight away.

Having these type of confusion is good rather than not having one ..

 

[honour]

lol.Why do Indians suffer from Mood Swings.

I mean sometimes all Indians think EF is best.Some times F-18.Now everybody thinks Rafale is best and some also think Gripen is best.

I say get EF.Its much better than rafale in RCS and engines.And if failed high altitude test does it matter simply base the squadrons in Rajasthan or Punjab.

agree eurofighter could be the best but its so must costly.....nearly 100 million per aircraft if spares/training option is exercised...which will be well beyond Indian...even Pakistani budget................

 

[SpArK]

Can somebody tell me the economy of MRCA deal .. its for 126 aircrafts and is said to be $10. billion deal.

A eurofighter costs the double amount when compared to Grippen or MIG-35.

Somebody explain this to me coz i am bad in maths.

 

[KEETARP]

No its not 10bill , its 42000 crore INR .
Now convert that amount by Dollar fluctuation.
It could be anything btw 10.6 to 12 bill . Euro exchange rate are similarly different .
That means we have something 85-90 mill for each Flyaway cost of air-craft . Overall 126MRCA will cost 35-45 bill in support costs envolved and spares upgrades , weapons etc.
Cost of Operation , Fuel , Pilot training , Technicians , Man-power etc are apart.

Eurofighter's Flyaway cost is near 120mill , while spares and weapons + training +simulators etc , Will take cost to about 200mill per piece .
Rafale is closely near at about 105 for flyaway cost
Gripen is anything between 75-80 mill
F18E is between 90-100mill
Mig35 - between 60-70 ( Indian navy's price was close to 55 mill for Mig29K)
Just for comparison - Brand new Su30mki will cost 60-65 mill a piece from Russia.

 

[honour]

Can somebody tell me the economy of MRCA deal .. its for 126 aircrafts and is said to be $10. billion deal.

A eurofighter costs the double amount when compared to Grippen or MIG-35.

Somebody explain this to me coz i am bad in maths.

The Defence Ministry has allocated Rs. 42,000 crore for the purchase of these aircraft (Approx. US$10.5 billion).
The Order is for 126 aircraft with the option to buy another 64 - 74 more.[62] While there were reports of the direct order being increased to 200, or split between two vendors, Former Chief of Air Staff of the IAF, Air Marshal S.P. Tyagi stated during Aero India 2007 that the number would remain the same, and would be sourced from a single vendor. The first squadron would be directly supplied by the vendor, while the rest would be manufactured under license in India by HAL. He stated however, that as the bidding progressed, this could change.

The Government of India has sanctioned approximately US$10 billion (Rs. 42,000 crore), with reports that another US$2 billion might be added to this. This is indicative of the high importance of the order to the respective vendors.

 

[SpArK]

No its not 10bill , its 42000 crore INR .
Now convert that amount by Dollar fluctuation.
It could be anything btw 10.6 to 12 bill . Euro exchange rate are similarly different .
That means we have something 85-90 mill for each Flyaway cost of air-craft . Overall 126MRCA will cost 35-45 bill in support costs envolved and spares upgrades , weapons etc.
Cost of Operation , Fuel , Pilot training , Technicians , Man-power etc are apart.

Eurofighter's Flyaway cost is near 120mill , while spares and weapons + training +simulators etc , Will take cost to about 200mill per piece .
Rafale is closely near at about 105 for flyaway cost
Gripen is anything between 75-80 mill
F18E is between 90-100mill
Mig35 - between 60-70 ( Indian navy's price was close to 55 mill for Mig29K)
Just for comparison - Brand new Su30mki will cost 60-65 mill a piece from Russia.

I still dont get the point..EF is still double the money of Grippen , MIGs.

So by plain maths its actually 200 million of EFx 126 .

Explain that to me in PM if its something of a simple maths. I dont want everybody to know that i am bad in maths.

 

[KEETARP]

No Benny , its not maths .
Many of us here will be not be aware how defence deals , Offsets, operational costs etc work .
And how the costs of aircraft are matter of fluctuation while purchasing and their life-long operation.
200 mill for Eurofighter involves everything , if you calculate everything for Gripen it will similarly come out to 166 mill.
Remember when you purchase a jet its not only Jet that you purchase , you buy its Support+Spares+Weapons+Training equipment+Logistics etc whole lot of things .
Just like a laptop with 5 Year service warranty and associated accessories .
What most people on Forum dont understand is the Flyaway cost f the jet and Operational cost of Jet when inducted in active service

Here is a link that will give you idea how costs are currently in world market.
Brazil AF Chief: Fighter Pick By End Of March idrw.org
Not the prices of just fighters not spares etc.

read this link below - esp last line of article
Uncle Sam's War-Mart - Special Report - Sunday TOI - Home - The Times of India
This is how prices of aircraft matter over their life time..
Now you can make out how 200mill of Eurofighter and 166 mill for Gripen over lifetime

For India what will matter is Fly-away cost + Support for parts which will not be manufactured in India under TOT + Weapons package . That will decide the final price offered by OEM to Indian gov.