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First Pakistani Army Viper Attack Helicopter Spotted

improved Z10 can do it as well.
I would have gone for Z10 or Turkish T129. Defence purchases should always fit within the overall strategic architecture. By investing in defence with your strategic partners you help them and yourself. It offers benefits of synergy and reliability. It would also ensure that as we move forward and Chinese defence industry matures Pakistan is there to benefit.
 
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I want to say number is very important. That why Jf17 project is a huge success! And the quality is catching up as China pours hundreds of billion into R&D and those talents pool coming back from the west.

Trump is a clown, he ain't know what he is doing. Pakistan is very important for USA.

I would have gone for Z10 or Turkish T129. Defence purchases should always fit within the overall strategic architecture. By investing in defence with your strategic partners you help them and yourself. It offers benefits of synergy and reliability. It would also ensure that as we move forward and Chinese defence industry matures Pakistan is there to benefit.
Keep relationship with USA is equally important, that's why you push both Zulu and T129. I wish all the best of Pakistan! Just like you have both JF17 and F16, smart strategy. China is always there if you need.

Chinese people like money, but who don't? There is a old saying in China: a gentle man will earn his wealth in a good way. Means we will not betray real friends for money.

To be honest the only thing that protects Pakistan today is the nuclear assets. 12 helicopters is going to make no differance but as you stated they will look pretty on national day parade. Given the way relations are going with USA Pakistan needs to wean off US equipment.
The next step is to get subs with the capability to launch ballastic missles. In this jungle world only Power speaks.

Tell me who will provide Pakistan SSBM or its technology? Only China.

For India: paradise is too far, and China is around the corner.

I don't think they would come now....
They would definitely give us some more soya bean in exchange of the money we have paid....
Trump is a big mouth, you don't even have to borther with his claim. Do your own work and let him talk.
 
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PAA what were you thinkimg ordering AH1Zs from backstabbing nation-

"The value of suspended funds totals approximately two billion dollars, and includes military equipment that Pakistan ordered in 2013 but has not yet received."
 
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I would have gone for Z10 or Turkish T129. Defence purchases should always fit within the overall strategic architecture. By investing in defence with your strategic partners you help them and yourself. It offers benefits of synergy and reliability. It would also ensure that as we move forward and Chinese defence industry matures Pakistan is there to benefit.

Mi-28 favours following over T-129 and Z-10:

1. Mmw Radar (Mi-28 N). For others, Mmw radars are in design/production phase.
2. Double ATGM payload without compromising other weapon stations.
3. Identical controls for pilot and WSO, layout for WSO to fly and control the chopper
4. Non-American engine (T-129) and neither thrust/power issues(Z-10).
5. Ability to carry 3 troops apart from Pilot and WSO.
6. Crash energy absorption armored cockpit with armored windows

A project in the direction of an in-house Gunship should have started in any case, PAA should have followed the pattern of Iranians to build a gunship frame at least based on AH-1 like Toufan(Iranian AH-1 copy). The engine could have russian like JF-17. Avionics and other systems could have been mix of chinese, turkish or russian. Pakistan already has experience integrating weapons from different countries on one machine. Its a pity that Pakistan has made an aircraft, tank, UAV and UCAV but no helicopter.

Pakistan should open some mines of oil, gas, coal, gold, copper and titanium and whole world will be ready to offer us their best of the best weapons! A simple Arab like strategy
it has been already opened to chinese. Research a bit.
 
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We can at the very least make standardized light scout-utility-fire support heli we easily need 500-600 of those. We can also easily make a nice western rival medium multi role helicopter like blackhawk we easily need 800-1000 of those for all 3 services, paramilitary, FC&Ranger air arms, marines, pmsa, sar, emergency services, police, govt duties.

Current situation is a complete mess. One force is using ecureil, some puma, some mi171, some lama.

Why not use common sense and standardize requirements of all forces and agencies and compress those needs i to light, medium, few heavy and attack categories???
Mi-28 favours following over T-129 and Z-10:

1. Mmw Radar (Mi-28 N). For others, Mmw radars are in design/production phase.
2. Double ATGM payload without compromising other weapon stations.
3. Identical controls for pilot and WSO, layout for WSO to fly and control the chopper
4. Non-American engine (T-129) and neither thrust/power issues(Z-10).
5. Ability to carry 3 troops apart from Pilot and WSO.
6. Crash energy absorption armored cockpit with armored windows

A project in the direction of an in-house Gunship should have started in any case, PAA should have followed the pattern of Iranians to build a gunship frame at least based on AH-1 like Toufan(Iranian AH-1 copy). The engine could have russian like JF-17. Avionics and other systems could have been mix of chinese, turkish or russian. Pakistan already has experience integrating weapons from different countries on one machine. Its a pity that Pakistan has made an aircraft, tank, UAV and UCAV but no helicopter.


it has been already opened to chinese. Research a bit.

My numbers estimates may be off but we can also make money off of the helis we make at home. Cause we have cheaper and readily available labor, budding talent, brainpower. Since our focus will be on making best bang for buck product. We can export to not so developed nations. Offering them affordable and credible platforms.
 
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We can at the very least make standardized light scout-utility-fire support heli we easily need 500-600 of those. We can also easily make a nice western rival medium multi role helicopter like blackhawk we easily need 800-1000 of those for all 3 services, paramilitary, FC&Ranger air arms, marines, pmsa, sar, emergency services, police, govt duties.

Current situation is a complete mess. One force is using ecureil, some puma, some mi171, some lama.

Why not use common sense and standardize requirements of all forces and agencies and compress those needs i to light, medium, few heavy and attack categories???


My numbers estimates may be off but we can also make money off of the helis we make at home. Cause we have cheaper and readily available labor, budding talent, brainpower. Since our focus will be on making best bang for buck product. We can export to not so developed nations. Offering them affordable and credible platforms.

Your number estimates are certainly way off. 800-1000 helicopters needed ? and i though Zarvan had ridiculous estimates. Even if you put all types of transport helicopters together, 500 maximum.You need to look at the terrain of Pakistan also and its width in km's and deployment zones where transport helis are needed. Mostly in Northern areas, then in western theatre of war and at the coast, in terms of numbers.
FC and Rangers need to patrol on streets, roads and borders, they mostly need MRAP's. Their SF teams need heli transport and commanders need observation from air. Even if they are allotted 10-15 helis each, that's 4 provinces of FC and Rangers with 40-60 helicopters in total. Same goes for Police and other federal departments (ASF/ANF etc). Thats 40-60 helis total for police and Feds throughout the country.
PM is still very small, a division strength, and if 5-10 helis are allotted, they can operate independent from Navy.
PCS and MSA definitely need transport helicopters but looking at their strength and operations, not more than 10-15 helis for both forces, not each.

National Guard (Mujahid/Janbaz battalions) and GB scouts are dependent upon army and is deployed for defence purposes. When deployed in mountains, mules are used for transport and this needs to change. Understood that majority of places on mountains are hard to land and even take off after landing, still insertion by rappelling, supply dropping and med evac through sling are important aspects of transport. Rappelling may need specialised training but others are do able. The major requirements are:

1. Transport of cargo and troops in mountain regions
2. Current war in west. SSG and LCB's need constant Air assault capability, so far provided by Mi-17.
3. For air assault ops carried out by PA and for that a brigade level ops, PAA would need to provide 100-120 helicopters at least at a time, in war time only or otherwise during exercise.

The use of combined forces formation (infantry, armour, artillery, air assault, air support with gunship) at division level is not implemented on a major scale as yet. Look at ORBAT of any western military division whether armor or infantry, it will have dedicated helicopter squadrons (attack and transport) attached to it.

The current inventory is mixed because of the role they have to fulfill.

Light Category:
Fennec/Bell 206/Bell 407: Light transport, scout and armed support. 4 or 5 troops.

Lama: same specs, Bought for hi-altitude ops.Getting replaced
Alouette III: same specs, Getting replaced

Medium Category:

Bell 412: Medium transport. 13 troops (same carrying capacity as UH-60 Blackhawk)
Puma: Medium transport and cargo. 16 troops. May get replaced.
Mi-17: Medium transport but extensively used in role of heavy cargo transport with repeated sorties. 28 Troops.

Heavy category:
None.

There is nothing massively wrong with above stats, Puma will eventually get replaced. Mi-17 doesnt need to get airborne when 10-13 troops need to be air lifted, Bell 412 can be used. The choice of vendors can be improved, as its a mix-match of american, russian and european fleet, but the categories would still remain different.

Light type of helicopter can remain the same, but medium types will still be 2 types: one carrying troops between 10-16, other type carrying troops between 20-30.

Whats missing is a heavy type like CH-47, CH-53 and Mi-26. These are required to air lift howitzers in mountain terrain and transport cargo. A sight of such big machines in operation was seen in 2005 earthquake.
 
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But making our own is far more profitable in long run.

I've read about Pakistani auto makers making a few home made helos a while ago. So we can certainly make small to medium multi role versatile helo in ample numbers.

I think that in a two front full blown conflict situation(which is emerging more strongly day by day) PAA assets will be stretched thin. As present doctrine seems to only cover bare minimum.

In any conflict rapid response, speed and surprise are crucial. And rotary assets are very important for air mobility and maintaining ALOC.Especially in modern theaters vs conventional threats. PAA simply does not seem to be able to sustain combat and support operations to its own ground forces combined with paramilitary and other arms.

Then there's whole different sphere of attack helos for anti-armor and CAS etc.

The thing between Bell 412 and Blackhawk is not because of troop carrying. Its cuz blackhawk is multirole, can be configured for multiple scenarios and versatility.

FC KP and Balochistan carry out majority ops in harsh terrain. Where they often need air support. If u look at US national guard and Turkish Jandarma they also have dedicated air assets.

Ranger sindh(when operating in Sindh) is only force whose AOR is mostly urban setting. Where helos have less role, limited to ISR at max.

I think PAA should also have some even if very limited heavy lift capability to be able to airlift heavy equipment, artillery, vehicles, supplies etc etc quickly in an emergency conflict situation where you do not have time to carry out multiple sorties.

The part most interesting for me would be developing a customer base and making exports.

Even if you tally current number of total rotary assets in every arm. They may end up totaling 400-600 easily. Most are obsolete or nearing obsolescence(open to correction if wrong :-))

Your number estimates are certainly way off. 800-1000 helicopters needed ? and i though Zarvan had ridiculous estimates. Even if you put all types of transport helicopters together, 500 maximum.You need to look at the terrain of Pakistan also and its width in km's and deployment zones where transport helis are needed. Mostly in Northern areas, then in western theatre of war and at the coast, in terms of numbers.
FC and Rangers need to patrol on streets, roads and borders, they mostly need MRAP's. Their SF teams need heli transport and commanders need observation from air. Even if they are allotted 10-15 helis each, that's 4 provinces of FC and Rangers with 40-60 helicopters in total. Same goes for Police and other federal departments (ASF/ANF etc). Thats 40-60 helis total for police and Feds throughout the country.
PM is still very small, a division strength, and if 5-10 helis are allotted, they can operate independent from Navy.
PCS and MSA definitely need transport helicopters but looking at their strength and operations, not more than 10-15 helis for both forces, not each.

National Guard (Mujahid/Janbaz battalions) and GB scouts are dependent upon army and is deployed for defence purposes. When deployed in mountains, mules are used for transport and this needs to change. Understood that majority of places on mountains are hard to land and even take off after landing, still insertion by rappelling, supply dropping and med evac through sling are important aspects of transport. Rappelling may need specialised training but others are do able. The major requirements are:

1. Transport of cargo and troops in mountain regions
2. Current war in west. SSG and LCB's need constant Air assault capability, so far provided by Mi-17.
3. For air assault ops carried out by PA and for that a brigade level ops, PAA would need to provide 100-120 helicopters at least at a time, in war time only or otherwise during exercise.

The use of combined forces formation (infantry, armour, artillery, air assault, air support with gunship) at division level is not implemented on a major scale as yet. Look at ORBAT of any western military division whether armor or infantry, it will have dedicated helicopter squadrons (attack and transport) attached to it.

The current inventory is mixed because of the role they have to fulfill.

Light Category:
Fennec/Bell 206/Bell 407: Light transport, scout and armed support. 4 or 5 troops.

Lama: same specs, Bought for hi-altitude ops.Getting replaced
Alouette III: same specs, Getting replaced

Medium Category:

Bell 412: Medium transport. 13 troops (same carrying capacity as UH-60 Blackhawk)
Puma: Medium transport and cargo. 16 troops. May get replaced.
Mi-17: Medium transport but extensively used in role of heavy cargo transport with repeated sorties. 28 Troops.

Heavy category:
None.

There is nothing massively wrong with above stats, Puma will eventually get replaced. Mi-17 doesnt need to get airborne when 10-13 troops need to be air lifted, Bell 412 can be used. The choice of vendors can be improved, as its a mix-match of american, russian and european fleet, but the categories would still remain different.

Light type of helicopter can remain the same, but medium types will still be 2 types: one carrying troops between 10-16, other type carrying troops between 20-30.

Whats missing is a heavy type like CH-47, CH-53 and Mi-26. These are required to air lift howitzers in mountain terrain and transport cargo. A sight of such big machines in operation was seen in 2005 earthquake.
 
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10/10

*Showcase
*Toys
As I keep saying and everyone keeps ignoring these toys have a utility. They are at the pinnacle of technology and beautifully put together machines. No disrespect to the Chinese and I salute you for the progress you have made but you need our input to get your equipment achieving Western standards. The numbers are not important possession of equipmemt is, as flight characteristics quality control design parameters and philosophy requires a bench mark that is higher than yours.
A

Good Question! Full marks to your curiosity!
None the less a reasonable ask. You have made a claim on an open forum, verify it.
A
 
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As I keep saying and everyone keeps ignoring these toys have a utility. They are at the pinnacle of technology and beautifully put together machines. No disrespect to the Chinese and I salute you for the progress you have made but you need our input to get your equipment achieving Western standards. The numbers are not important possession of equipmemt is, as flight characteristics quality control design parameters and philosophy requires a bench mark that is higher than yours.
A


None the less a reasonable ask. You have made a claim on an open forum, verify it.
A

If you are in doubt, Give GHQ a shout!
 
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