First Pakistani Army Viper Attack Helicopter Spotted

[HAIDER]

Well, after today s development , I think Zulu will be delivered . According to news , they don t fall under recent dated sanctions.

 

[Beethoven]

Fool me once shame on you
Fool me twice shame on me!!!!!!

 

[BATMAN]

And the award goes to ?

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Say BYE BYE to US hardware.

 

[帅的一匹]

These days everyone talks about the undying friendship with China. Permit me to briefly describe the history of India / China relationship.

India & Britain (because of Hong Kong) were among the very first non-Communist countries to recognise PRC (Peoples Republic of China) very early January 1950. Pakistan recognised PRC one year later in 1951.

Until 1954 India & China were close friends and some oldies might remember “Hindi Chini bhai bhai” slogan of the 1950's. ‘Five Principles” (Panchsheel) of peaceful coexistence was signed in April, 1954 between Indian & China which consisted of (1) Mutual respect for each other’s territorial integrity and sovereignty; (2) Mutual non-aggression; (3) Mutual non-interference in each other’s internal affairs;(4) Equality and mutual benefit: and(5) Peaceful coexistence. The good relations continued and Indian President Radhakrishnan visited China during September 1957.

It was not until January 1959 when PRC Premier Chou En Lai claimed 40,000 square miles of territory in Ladakh & NEFA that relations started to turn sour. A meeting between Pundit Nehru & Chou En Lai in Delhi during April 1960 failed to resolve the boundary question. In April 1959 Dalai Lama escaped from Lhasa to India where he was granted asylum. This act was nail in the coffin of good Sino Indian relations and culminated in the November 1962 border war between Indian & China.

Let us be clear, no country is any other country’s’ eternal friend, nor its eternal enemy. Qatar was a close friend and ally of other Arab Gulf countries and an active member of GCC where citizens of all member countries can travel and work freely without a visa. All of a sudden they are no longer friends. Former U.S. President Harry Truman alleged to have said of the US relationships: “If you want an eternal Friend, get a dog."

Pakistan / US friendship goes back 60 years when we joint SEATO & CENTO and Pakistan started receiving F-86 fighters, Patton tanks & the Ghazi submarine. Now some people are suggesting stopping buying US equipment!
Who is the ungrateful one?

We can’t afford French fighters, Russia is still quite close to India and no one knows for certain what would happen after Putin. This means relying 100% on the Chinese. Must we put all our eggs in one basket again?

If Sino Indian relations can plummet from Hindi China bhai bhai to physical fighting between the two giant neighbours in the span of 12 years; possibility of Pak – China relations going sour in a couple of decades cannot be ruled out altogether.

Pakistan has already diversified her military hardware acquisitions. In order to get the best bang for our buck, Pakistan must look for weapons that best suit her requirement from wherever the same can be acquired.

I shall make it very clear that it's India invaded our land first(transpassed the Mcmahon line and illegally occupied south Tibet) then we had to fight back.

If pakistan don't even trust China, I don't have anything to add here. Diversification is no wrong, do whatever you like.

China won't poke any friend if they don't back-stab us.

Now it's USA asks Pakistan to stay away from China, not contra versa.

As long as China is strong and prosperous, India is going no where.

What he'll 12 Zulu can do in a war against India? To showcase? You need hundreds of Z10 to deal with T90 tanks. Those Zulu in my eyes are just toys to make PA general feel pompous, to ensure the relationship between USA and Pakistan going on.

I've personally seen Chinese Gunship in Pakistan when it was under testing. The gunship is nowhere near Americanish or any west country tech. The quality is extremely poor. Still the 30 years old American cobra's body is far rough, harder and qualitative over latest Chinese Z series....

Can you brief it?

 

[X.I.X]

ALLAH O AKBAR. MAY ALLAH ALMIGHTY BLESSED US IN FUTURE ALSO.

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

PAK ARMED FORCES PAINDABAD

 

[帅的一匹]

Say BYE BYE to US hardware.

Don't worry, USA dare not say bye bye to Pakistan.

He is bluffing you to stay away from China.

I dont know why you are praising the French track record in past (supposedly), as it is irrelevant - end result is they are not selling anything now, which is worse than US who is still willing to sell weapons to Pak even in these worst circumstances.

RD93s were procured via China for a long time - that is a fact.

The whole debate was related to why PA and PAF is pursuing big ticket items from US such as AH1Z and F16s. I simply responded that they are the most capable, most affordable, and readily available. You have not provided any worthy alternatives be it Russians, Europeans or Chinese. Even if we include your honorable French here as well for theoretical purposes, they offer Rafales ... can PAF afford them instead of F16s? No!

You can continue to remain delusional and criticize Miltary decision makers over some imaginary alternatives that exist for Pakistan. Pakistans strategy seems very prudent; procuring indigenous or Chinese systems when feasible, slowly building relations with Russia now (I hate to keep repeating but this availability is quite recent, but some folks here think Russians have been willing to sell major weapons since 47, forgetting cold war and Afghan jihad period and Indian influence), and when US options are simply the best, then we have no choice but to swallow the bitter pill.

The only way to make American happy is to cut ties with China and stop CPEC. China is determined to be a super power, so the conflict with USA is foreseen. Pakistan can't make USA and China both happy like used to be.

There won't be two male tigers in one mountain.

The more India and USA get closer, the more Pakistan and China will get closer. Russia is variate, cause they never give up using India to leverage China in the history.

But never worry. If there is a war between China and USA, all Pakistan need to do is stay neutral. We will handle them alone.

 

[HRK]

If pakistan don't even trust China, I don't have anything to add here. Diversification is no wrong, do whatever you like.

He was not making any comment about trusting or not to trust China, all of his post was generally describing the basic nature of the International Politics to some new/younger members that Friend can become enemy or enemy can become friends .... and the example of early days of India & China relation were given in that context

 

[帅的一匹]

He was not making any comment about trusting or not to trust China, all of his post was generally describing the basic nature of the International Politics to some new/younger members that Friend can become enemy or enemy can become friends .... and the example of early days of India & China relation were given in that context

Yeh, I can read his words. But I want to rectify his statement of China claiming lands from India is the root cause of 1962 conflict.

India backstabbed China relentlessly when they said 'Indi-Chini Bhai Bhai' some shit like that.

 

[niaz]

I shall make it very clear that it's India invaded our land first(transpassed the Mcmahon line and illegally occupied south Tibet) then we had to fight back.

If pakistan don't even trust China, I don't have anything to add here. Diversification is no wrong, do whatever you like.

Hon Sir,

I cited the example of India China merely to highlight the basic truth of international politics which is a changing game. There is no black & white and national interest of the countries clash because every country believes that she is in the right.

I am a student of history and the emergence of China into a super power is a phenomenon that occurred during my lifetime. I deliberately did not refer to the history of China / Russia & China / Vietnam relations in my previous post; permit me to briefly recap the relationship between China & Russia and China & Vietnam.

Sino-Russian relations:

Soviet Union and China signed a Treaty of Friendship on Feb 15, 1950 whereby Soviet Union helped in setting up of more than 160 industrial projects in China. However, by 1960 good relations had come to a halt as the two countries competed for the leadership of the Communist world with border clashes taking place between Soviet and Chinese troops in 1969.

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/how-the-soviet-union-china-almost-started-world-war-iii-15152

The dialogue between the two nations restarted in the 1980’s with the Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev visiting China in My 1989. Both the countries agreed on full normalization of relations.

A pact on the eastern border was signed in May 1991. In September 1994, Russia and China agreed not to target each other with nuclear weapons and also signed an agreement on demarcation of the western part of their border. Relations had improved to the point that by August 2005, China and Russia held their first joint military exercises.

Sino – Vietnam. Relations:

Peoples Republic of China (PRC) was the first country to recognise the Communist Vietnam and provided Vietnam free military and humanitarian supplies such as medicine, clothes, food and large number of weapons including machine guns, rifles and mortars.

Following the US involvement in Vietnam Soviets also joined in a big way whereas PRC assistances reduced in the aftermath of Cultural Revolution of 1965.

Covert improvement in Sino US relations in the early 70’s also affected PRC military support to Vietnam. Nixon’s visit to China in 1972 meant that military assistance to Vietnamese was in direct conflict with the improving Sino US relations. This was evident from the luke- warm Chinese support to the Vietnamese cause in the Paris Conference of 1973. Such actions of the Chinese were seen as betrayal by the Vietnamese resulting in deterioration of the Sino-Vietnamese relations.

Sino- Vietnamese interests clashed again over Cambodia in 1975 primarily because China considered Cambodia as an independent State. On the other hand, Vietnam considered Cambodia as part of the Indochina family where Vietnam had always taken the dominant role during the anti-colonial struggle against the French.

By May 1977, China and Vietnam relations were declining rapidly and the arguments between them now also included sovereignty over the islands in the South China Sea. Cambodian-Vietnamese relations also worsened. Following Cambodian attacks on Vietnamese border, the battle-hardened troops of Vietnam defeated the Cambodian forces in 1978.

Vietnam intervention in Cambodia resulted in China considering Vietnam as a clear enemy. Vietnam was accused by China of ethnic cleansing of the Chinese residents in Vietnam and occupation of the South China Sea Islands by Vietnamese forces was interpreted as invasion of the Chinese sovereignty. In the resulting border war of 1979, Vietnamese held the upper hand and the Chinese forces were forced to withdraw. The conflict continued on into 1980 with minor border clashes.

Vietnam is seen as a 'backdoor' into China and a friendly relationship is a must for the political stability of the South East Asian region.

Thaw started in 1994 when China and Vietnam established a specific 'discussion' forum to resolve the territorial issues and a land border treaty was signed. The territorial disputes over the South China Seas have also been significantly resolved through cooperative agreements between the Chinese and Vietnamese .

It is an undeniable historical fact that even though China & India as well as Soviet Union & China and Vietnam & China were very close in the early 50’s; Chinese ended up in an armed conflict with all three of the countries.

I have no basis to doubt China’s good intentions towards Pakistan and sincerely hope that our friendship lasts for a very long time. Nevertheless I stand by my assertion that among the nations, there is no such thing as an eternal friend or an eternal enemy.

 

[帅的一匹]

Oh, come on! Vietnam held the upper hands? Actually we are the only one can give Greedy Vietnam a lesson(the Vietnam army had to retreat from Cambodia and Laos after got spanked by PLA). Viets launched a war with soviet's support try to annex the whole Indo-China peninsular(including Cambodia, Laos, Thailand).
Nikita Khrushchev wanted China to be Soviet puppet, we just can't let him do it. Any way Nikita is obsessed with Commorade Stalin, he just hate Stalin. Vietnam choosed to side with Soviet to deal with China , it's their decision and no one can help it. Anyway, I never hate Russians and Vietnamese.

Another thing is: never trust the Yankees! The CIA are behind the stage of 1989 student rebellions in Tian an Men square, which force the goverment to adopt iron hands after months of persuasion.Yankess will penetrate and bite you when you get caught off guard!? Is it the same shit happen in Turkey to overthrow Erdogan Regime?!

And China had a non-interference foreign policy, we have no problem who elected as the president of Pakistan. We are making friends with Pakistan, not certain people.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

What he'll 12 Zulu can do in a war against India? To showcase? You need hundreds of Z10 to deal with T90 tanks. Those Zulu in my eyes are just toys to make PA general feel pompous, to ensure the relationship between USA and Pakistan going on.

10/10

*Showcase
*Toys

 

[帅的一匹]

10/10

*Showcase
*Toys

T129 with domestic turbo shaft engine is even better.

If F6/F7 and JF17 can do the work, improved Z10 can do it as well. PLA won't be crazy to induct thousands of it if it's no good. Time will tell.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

T129 with domestic turbo shaft engine is even better.

To be honest the only thing that protects Pakistan today is the nuclear assets. 12 helicopters is going to make no differance but as you stated they will look pretty on national day parade. Given the way relations are going with USA Pakistan needs to wean off US equipment.

 

[Pakistansdefender]

I don't think they would come now....
They would definitely give us some more soya bean in exchange of the money we have paid....