Final F-35 Kill Ratios at Red Flag 17-1 (and USMC Exercises)

[F-22Raptor]

The F-35 will revolutionize air combat for the US military. It's going to provide a decisive edge over adversary forces in the decades to come.

 

[Penguin]

F-35 changes the game (for all participants) from a football to a soccer game ;-)

 

[Akasa]

F-35 changes the game (for all participants) from a football to a soccer game ;-)

Not with the Germans or Argentines on the opposing team.

 

[The SC]

But there are no air defences involved in these exercises!

 

[gambit]

But there are no air defences involved in these exercises!

Wrong. Watch it again, and try to listen without your biases.

http://www.nellis.af.mil/Units/57WG.aspx

 

[The SC]

Wrong. Watch it again, and try to listen without your biases.

http://www.nellis.af.mil/Units/57WG.aspx

I like the F-35 and I was asking a question and surprised, you answer a question with biases and what have you.. there is nothing said or done on/with air defences in these exercises.. it is just air to air combat, some BVR and some WVR.. otherwise provide anything saying that the exercises were conducted in an air defence environ..

 

[gambit]

I like the F-35 and I was asking a question and surprised, you answer a question with biases and what have you.. there is nothing said or done on/with air defences in these exercises.. it is just air to air combat, some BVR and some WVR.. otherwise provide anything saying that the exercises were conducted in an air defence environ..

Time stamp 3:33 is when the Air Force general mentioned 'threats from the ground'. You are lazy and this is why I do not take you seriously.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

F-35 changes the game (for all participants) from a football to a soccer game ;-)

Soccer is a game where two 11-men teams play for 2 x 45 minutes, and then the Germans win!

 

[Penguin]

Not with the Germans or Argentines on the opposing team.

Well, yes, especially with them (Germans, Argentines.... all the same). Point is of course that in US football different roles for different players are very much fixed. Whereas in soccer, any player can in principle score, or assist a score. @A.P.Richelieu too

But there are no air defences involved in these exercises!

There are both air defences in the air and on the ground in these exercises.

"The Red Forces are also augmented by other U.S. Air Force, U.S. Navy and U.S. Marine Corps units flying in concert with the 507th Air Defense Aggressor Squadron's (507 ADAS) electronic ground defenses and communications, and radar jamming equipment."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_Red_Flag

The 507th Air Defense Aggressor Squadron is the Air Force’s only Air Defense Aggressor Squadron. It provides the world’s most realistic surface threat replication for U.S. and allied RED FLAG exercises, USAF Weapons Instructor Course and USAF test missions.
http://flightlineinsignia.com/product/507th-air-defense-aggressor-squadron/

Red Flag, an air-to-air combat training exercise offered here, provides training for U.S. and allied nations' combat air forces pilots, coming as close to a real world experience as possible.
Airmen of the 507th Air Defense Aggressor Squadron, the only squadron of its kind in the U.S. Air Force, add another element to the training that pilots are able to encounter, react, and hopefully overcome. This simulated threat comes in the form of the surface-to-air missile.
"One of the biggest threats out there today is a ground threat, or enemies shooting up at our pilots," Capt. Justin Davis, 507th ADAS instructor, said. "It is not a good way to be prepared if you go up in some type of scenario where you have never actually seen the threat, and maybe have only read about it."
It is the role of the 507th ADAS to make pilots more aware of what a potential enemy can do with a SAM, and how to defeat it.
"You need experience to go up against those threats," Davis said. "Airmen can go through this training and actually fight against them. When they are deployed, they can be armed with a better understanding on how to defeat what is out there that is trying to kill them."
By utilizing surface to air missile simulators on the Nevada Test and Training Range, training has become unique at Nellis. With the use of a software modeling program that simulates the SAM's, the training experience gains an added realism.
"We have software and computer modeling that will replicate what certain missiles will do so the flight profile and the kinematics of the missile will all be simulated to accurately determine if a missile destroyed an aircraft," Davis said. "The instructors will use that system, and some other techniques that we have, to ensure we have a good product for the aircrew."
The men and women of the 507th ADAS provide a lot of experience due to the variety of career fields within the squadron.
http://www.nellis.af.mil/News/tabid...nd-squadron-trains-airmen-from-ground-up.aspx

The 57th Adversary Tactics Group (57 ATG) is the flying component of the 57th Wing, assigned to the United States Air Force Air Combat Command. The group is stationed at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada.The 57th ATG was formed on 1 July 2005 with the objective of consolidating all Aggressor activities under one organization to provide the Combat Air Forces with the opportunity to train against a realistic, fully integrated threat array during large- and small-scale exercises such as Red Flag – Nellis, Red Flag – Alaska, Maple Flag, Green Flag and dissimilar air combat training deployments.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/57th_Adversary_Tactics_Group

 

[Akasa]

Well, yes, especially with them (Germans, Argentines.... all the same). Point is of course that in US football different roles for different players are very much fixed. Whereas in soccer, any player can in principle score, or assist a score. @A.P.Richelieu too


There are both air defences in the air and on the ground in these exercises.

Ah, I see, I misunderstood your definition of "football". As in, football in your case does not equate "European soccer".

 

[The SC]

Well, yes, especially with them (Germans, Argentines.... all the same). Point is of course that in US football different roles for different players are very much fixed. Whereas in soccer, any player can in principle score, or assist a score. @A.P.Richelieu too


There are both air defences in the air and on the ground in these exercises.

@gambit
I heard the airforce general talking in the future tense, that is why i doubted there were any ground air defences, and then he talks about the huge success against Air defences, that made me wonder if he was talking about the same exercises or about simulations..
So please avoid getting personal, that is not good!!!

 

[Penguin]

See e.g. pics here
http://archive.defense.gov/photoessays/PhotoEssaySS.aspx?ID=6828

 

[Jugger]

F35 will be effective , but will be easily countered by stealth defeating ground based radars.
In the fight between stealth vs radar, I think radars will win.
Guided munitions and drones, especially drones will be the most important air asset of the future.

 

[Penguin]

@gambit
I heard the airforce general talking in the future tense, that is why i doubted there were any ground air defences, and then he talks about the huge success against Air defences, that made me wonder if he was talking about the same exercises or about simulations..
So please avoid getting personal, that is not good!!!

Sorry, but you don't fly against real life SAM systems in training > it is always simulated.

From post #12

Whereas the air superiority scenario has not been disclosed (therefore, the above mentioned kill ratio should be taken with a grain of salt, as always when it deals with mock air-to-air engagements…), other details of the F-35As specific missions during the exercise are beginning to emerge from Red Flag 17-1.
The recently revealed reports suggest that large-scale F-35A strikes were conducted in a highly contested/denied aerial environment. Air Force F-35As penetrated denied airspace and directed standoff weapons from B-1B heavy bombers flying outside the denied airspace. Those strikes destroyed simulated surface to air weapons systems. This suggests some of the exercises were an example of a “first day of war” scenario where Air Force F-35As spearheaded an attack on a heavily defended target set both in the air and on the ground. The F-35As entered the denied airspace and engaged both aerial and ground targets, not only with weapons they carried but also with weapons launched from other platforms such as the B-1Bs as they loitered just outside the threat environment acting as “bomb trucks.”
https://theaviationist.com/tag/red-flag/

 

[gambit]

F35 will be effective , but will be easily countered by stealth defeating ground based radars.
In the fight between stealth vs radar, I think radars will win.
Guided munitions and drones, especially drones will be the most important air asset of the future.

Ground based radars are horizon line of sight (LOS) limited.

http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm