Final F-35 Kill Ratios at Red Flag 17-1 (and USMC Exercises)

[Jugger]

Ground based radars are horizon line of sight (LOS) limited.

http://members.home.nl/7seas/radcalc.htm

Yes, but you need more of them on the ground plus a few in the air to get decent coverage.
The reason why I think radars will win the race is because new radars can replace old ones easily, but stealth planes can't be modified or replaced so quickly or cost-effectively.
PS: I think the future belongs to the drones.

 

[Penguin]

F35 will be effective , but will be easily countered by stealth defeating ground based radars.
In the fight between stealth vs radar, I think radars will win.
Guided munitions and drones, especially drones will be the most important air asset of the future.

I think you underestimate what role the F-35 will actually play (see earlier post highloghs in red)

The F-35s coordinated with EA-18G Growlers, F-15Cs, F-16s, F-22s, B-1 bombers, British Typhoons and Australian airborne early warning and control E-7A Wedgetails. Overall, the Joint Strike Fighter communicated with more than 60 aircraft including various intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance platforms.
With the inclusion of the Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL) and Link 16, the F-35 was able to share one threat picture across 70 aircraft...
The USAF told reporters the F-35’s 15 to 1 kill ratio recorded during its Nellis exercises had improved, but could not say by how much. The service does not yet have a tally of F-35s hit by integrated air defenses or surface to air missiles, but the action report with those details should release in about a month, the USAF adds.
“The F-35 mission was to get in undetected and hit targets, so we weren’t there specifically for air to air role,” Lt Col George Watkins, commander, 34th fighter squadron says. “Our ratio has gotten better but I don’t have the final numbers. We saw an improvement in our pilot’s proficiency throughout Red Flag and that number was just F-35 kills and depth.”
Since its last Red Flag exercise at Nellis two weeks prior, the USAF turned up the heat on its F-35As with more advanced SAMs. The service also leveraged some blue forces to fly on the red side to increase threat numbers, Lt Col John Wagemann, director of operations for 414th combat training squadron says. At its peak, more than 20 red aircraft flew against blue forces, he says.
The USAF at large has a need for more adversary forces in training environments and recently posted a request for proposals seeking out additional contracted red air. Until the air force gains that extra iron in the sky though, the service is making Red Flag more challenging for blue forces by improvising. Once red forces were killed during the Red Flag event at Hill, those same aircraft returned “alive” to the fight later, Wagemann says.
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/f-35a-premiers-at-hill-afb-red-flag-434174/

 

[Jugger]

I think you underestimate what role the F-35 will actually play (see earlier post highloghs in red)

I did not underestimate the F35 , I am sure that the fighter is very good as of now but it's stealth feature will be obsolete very quickly just like the case of F117s.

 

[Penguin]

I did not underestimate the F35 , I am sure that the fighter is very good as of now but it's stealth feature will be obsolete very quickly just like the case of F117s.

I didnt say F-35 is a very good fighter, I spoke to its role (what it will be doing, and what not).

 

[Oldman1]

F35 will be effective , but will be easily countered by stealth defeating ground based radars.
In the fight between stealth vs radar, I think radars will win.
Guided munitions and drones, especially drones will be the most important air asset of the future.

If it was easily countered China and Russia wouldn't spend considerable resources and manpower on stealth programs.

I did not underestimate the F35 , I am sure that the fighter is very good as of now but it's stealth feature will be obsolete very quickly just like the case of F117s.

When the F117 was shot down did the Chinese and the Russians gave up on stealth development?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

F35 will be effective , but will be easily countered by stealth defeating ground based radars.
In the fight between stealth vs radar, I think radars will win.
Guided munitions and drones, especially drones will be the most important air asset of the future.

As I have said a couple of times, a mesh of drones with IRST and datalinks spaced 20-30km apart should keep track of incoming stealth aircrafts and give targetting info to missile platforms.

Would be more difficult to implement over enemy territory.

 

[Penguin]

Ah, I see, I misunderstood your definition of "football". As in, football in your case does not equate "European soccer".

Soccer = voetbal, Fußball, calcio, fútbol etc (i.e. the game we play in the civilized world ;-)
Football = American Football (i.e. that other football)

Several codes of football. Images, from top down, left to right: association football, Australian rules football, international rules football, a rugby union scrum, rugby league, and American football.

 

[DavidSling]

Will U.S bring it's F35 to blue flag this year?

 

[gambit]

Yes, but you need more of them on the ground plus a few in the air to get decent coverage.
The reason why I think radars will win the race is because new radars can replace old ones easily, but stealth planes can't be modified or replaced so quickly or cost-effectively.
PS: I think the future belongs to the drones.

My point, which I think you missed, was about tactics.

Being low radar observable, aka 'stealth', does not give any F-22 or F-35 the freedom to take radars casually. They still will request SIGINT about the target area and still will plan their attack routes to avoid being inside any radar sweep. Being 'stealth' means that JUST IN CASE the jet is inside a radar beam, it will be difficult for that radar to acquire any meaningful returns.

This is what %99.999 of people do not understand about 'stealth'. This is not Hollywood where the 'stealth' fighter does not care about radars. This is real life where if the 'stealth' fighter pilot finds out he is inside a radar beam, via his sensors, he will still try to get out of it. He will know which direction is an enemy radar BUT that enemy radar does not know that a 'stealth' fighter was momentarily inside his sweep.

A friend of mine is assigned to the 507th. He 'scrounges' for parts to maintain the various Soviet/Russian air defense radars to provide as realistic as possible the ground threats to accommodate Red Flag training. Sometimes his shop can 'fab' up a part, sometimes he can find it on the international market, sometimes he can find an American source. I have the unit's patch on my cube wall at work.

 

[Penguin]

There's your background... Soviet 9K35 Strela-10 (SA-13 Gopher), an MT-LB based SAM, on display inside the Threat Training Facility at Nellis AFB, NV.

From:[PDF] The USA Historical AFV Register

See also http://www.omhphotos.com/p361684357
Others on display include SA-2 'Guideline', S-125 Neva/Pechora (NATO: SA-3 'Goa'), 2K12 Kub (Sa-6 'Gainful'), SA-8 Gecko. Buk. Zu-23-4 etc.

note the 4 stove pipes too!

 

[gambit]

The 507th do not need to have the latest/greatest Russian/Chinese hardware to create that necessary 'one degree separation' from real combat. They would love to have the latest/greatest hardware and often times they do. Sources unknown, of course.

That 'one degree separation' means the next level is a live missile launch.

At Red Flag, in terms of attacking a target that have an air defense capability, the simulated defense is an active radar that have as close as possible the signal characteristics of the latest/greatest hardware. That is what the 507th strives to do. Red Flag participants learns, according to the fighters they brought, on how to detect those air defense signals and to avoid them. The key here is what they flew to the exercise. In essence, if what you bring is too 'vintage', you will 'die' that simulated death in the exercise. Your system is simply too dated to recognize those air defense signals. If you are a foreign air force, you will take this defeat back to your home country and see if your country's threat is capable of defeating you. This is why so many foreign air force pilots walked away from Red Flag shaken. They had no ideas on what the 507th is capable of doing and how easily they were 'killed'.

 

[salarsikander]

My point, which I think you missed, was about tactics.

Being low radar observable, aka 'stealth', does not give any F-22 or F-35 the freedom to take radars casually. They still will request SIGINT about the target area and still will plan their attack routes to avoid being inside any radar sweep. Being 'stealth' means that JUST IN CASE the jet is inside a radar beam, it will be difficult for that radar to acquire any meaningful returns.

This is what %99.999 of people do not understand about 'stealth'. This is not Hollywood where the 'stealth' fighter does not care about radars. This is real life where if the 'stealth' fighter pilot finds out he is inside a radar beam, via his sensors, he will still try to get out of it. He will know which direction is an enemy radar BUT that enemy radar does not know that a 'stealth' fighter was momentarily inside his sweep.


A friend of mine is assigned to the 507th. He 'scrounges' for parts to maintain the various Soviet/Russian air defense radars to provide as realistic as possible the ground threats to accommodate Red Flag training. Sometimes his shop can 'fab' up a part, sometimes he can find it on the international market, sometimes he can find an American source. I have the unit's patch on my cube wall at work.

Son basically what you're saying is that that even when you're flying stealth jet. You're actually looking through the sensor for radar beams and avoiding it ?

But then you will have to have very powerful sensor to read those signals