Few words about this guy

[Nilgiri]

You know my views on the Sanghis and their erratic, drunk_at_the_wheel methods of administration, and I'm sure you don't want to hear any more. You should remember that this government has been toxic for the atmosphere in which institutions function; that, more than the rapid degradation of the social fabric, is the worst part of the Modi government.

I'm not sure why @That Guy wrote what he did. That was the last quarter I had expected to find defending Modi's economic voodoo rites. Perhaps when he is less irritated by Pakistani posts about Imran Khan, he will reconsider.

Umeed par duniya qayam hai.

All perspectives are relative, none can be absolute (that's for "up there"...far away from human imperfection altogether). Hence the logical basis for democracy.

This is just a "starter-pack" upstream summary on it (for broad comparison on the underlying concept I'm trying to get at).

I know the downstream, resolute arguments you have (they plague my mind from time to time, just so you know its not all in vain.... thanks!), but that gets further and further from relevancy for this thread...

I was about to give my "few words" as "He came, He saw, He tried...." or some humorous anecdote like that initially (when I noticed this thread first pop up).... but since That_Guy tagged me for some input, I decided to go for bit more.

 

[That Guy]

You know my views on the Sanghis and their erratic, drunk_at_the_wheel methods of administration, and I'm sure you don't want to hear any more. You should remember that this government has been toxic for the atmosphere in which institutions function; that, more than the rapid degradation of the social fabric, is the worst part of the Modi government.

I'm not sure why @That Guy wrote what he did. That was the last quarter I had expected to find defending Modi's economic voodoo rites. Perhaps when he is less irritated by Pakistani posts about Imran Khan, he will reconsider.

Umeed par duniya qayam hai.

Allow me to explain.

So a quick disclaimer, I'm not super knowledgeable on Indian economics or politics, like @Nilgiri with Pakistan, I'm a casual observer of India's internal politics.

From what I can tell, while modi has had a net negative societal affect, his economic policies (at least in the beginning of his first term) were relatively economically sound. From introducing a uniform tax code, to introducing legislation that makes business and investment environment easier. It's not a secret that during his beginning term, India experienced a relatively health amount of economic growth, as well as enjoyed a better business environment.

Of course he's had major blunders as well, like the demonetization disaster, which erased tens of billions of dollars from the Indian economy, practically over night.

He's also failed spectacularly at tackling growing unemployment, and the increasing automation of Indian industries. Not to mention the failure of dealing with agriculture, and farming subsidies.

I'm not defending him, and you know I'd never do so.

Still, with what @Nilgiri wrote, it seems some of my ideas were and are wrong about India. I have much to ponder.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Allow me to explain.

So a quick disclaimer, I'm not super knowledgeable on Indian economics or politics, like @Nilgiri with Pakistan, I'm a casual observer of India's internal politics.

From what I can tell, while modi has had a net negative societal affect, his economic policies (at least in the beginning of his first term) were relatively economically sound. From introducing a uniform tax code, to introducing legislation that makes business and investment environment easier. It's not a secret that during his beginning term, India experienced a relatively health amount of economic growth, as well as enjoyed a better business environment.

Of course he's had major blunders as well, like the demonetization disaster, which erased tens of billions of dollars from the Indian economy, practically over night.

He's also failed spectacularly at tackling growing unemployment, and the increasing automation of Indian industries. Not to mention the failure of dealing with agriculture, and farming subsidies.

I'm not defending him, and you know I'd never do so.

Still, with what @Nilgiri wrote, it seems some of my ideas were and are wrong about India. I have much to ponder.

There was that grain of truth in your analysis that makes it mighty uncomfortable for people like us. I would like to think that this government has no redeeming factors, but your note reminded me that this isn't true. Perhaps not redeeming, perhaps marginally ameliorative, but there we are, it isn't all black.

 

[Genghis khan1]

I was among many of those people who supported IK during last general elections. It has been over a year that he has been running the country as premier, how do you rate his performance so far. Major achievements and failures so far.

As long as he is not digging Croupt System of Pakistan deeper into a hole, and not running away with the stolen money, that an achievements on it own.

 

[jericho]

This is DESPITE the fact that you KNOW Pakistan had to face multiple problems, like Trump coming to power in the US, and now the coronavirus.

I liked most of the points you mentioned in that post but this one is an exception. Maybe Canada have some reservations about Trump because of the new North American deal, maybe EU nations have issues with him because he asks them to increase spending in Nato, maybe some El Salvador or Honduras folks have issues that border crossing have been highlighted so much but I dont think Pakistan had major issue with Trump which didnt get resolved after IK met Trump last year.

If you don't remember, as soon as Trumo came to power, he cut off financial assistance to Pakistan, and placed undeclared sanctions. It got so bad to the point that it looked lie Pakistan would not be able to get an emergency bailout.

If you are talking about the suspension of aid that US had been giving, I remember ppl in this forum saying that the amount was so little (few hundred millions) and all that would have came with "Do More" which Pakistan didnt want to accept anyway and a lot of ppl here were happy with China's investment, so I am not sure in what way Trump made Pakistan's life difficult anymore than the previous admins did. Wasn't it under Obama admin that they used to do drone attacks, which IK critisized Obama for? What did Trump do that is equal to that? if EU, Canada and other nations have trade or other issues with him, its not in any way Pakistan's issue

 

[Jungibaaz]

To me it is these institutions that are kind of the "written record" that get past all filters shape the destiny of a country long term. To get maximum amount into that record, you need as far as possible a democratic system (operating with experience, wisdom and tact past the political noise of the day) within the solid republic enshrined in constitution. This is what gives every elected body+executive a larger "consistent" base to operate from long term regardless of their politicking against each other to differentiate and vie for control/influence in various social and national narratives.

Pakistan to me has been lacking in that (higher* order institutionalism) for various reasons thats subject of much longer conversation.

This also means I dont give any huge exceptional credit to IK (and I am simply not in much position/knowledge to do so to begin with for Pak politics + economics past a curious observer), but also do not criticize him that much either.

I fully concur, this is THE main issue in Pakistan IMO. A lack of democratic process with weak institutions, thus creating a fragile and unstable republic.

As for IK, I’m sorry to say he is no better in this regard, imo a lot worse. The same forces that always undermine democracy in Pakistan have done it again. In 1989, the establishment feared Benazir and they propped up Nawaz Sharif to help him win the 1990 election. That same establishment turned on Sharif a little while later much to his dismay. And we all know what happened to him in the last 3 years, and who he blames for it. IK will learn this the hard way too.

We still don’t have a democracy in this country and the constitution is still neither mature, nor is it completely the supreme law in practice (yet). This is one thing we severely lack and is the basis for a lot of the ills that cause us to be stuck in an endless loop of instability and slow progress.

 

[That Guy]

There was that grain of truth in your analysis that makes it mighty uncomfortable for people like us. I would like to think that this government has no redeeming factors, but your note reminded me that this isn't true. Perhaps not redeeming, perhaps marginally ameliorative, but there we are, it isn't all black.

Everything has a silver lining, and everyone has some good in them.

It's an unfortunate truth; If the world was truly black and white, there'd be no doubt which side of the good and evil coin people stand on.

I liked most of the points you mentioned in that post but this one is an exception. Maybe Canada have some reservations about Trump because of the new North American deal, maybe EU nations have issues with him because he asks them to increase spending in Nato, maybe some El Salvador or Honduras folks have issues that border crossing have been highlighted so much but I dont think Pakistan had major issue with Trump which didnt get resolved after IK met Trump last year.

And thats the thing. Before trump and ik met, trump almost immediately after gaining power, stopped economic aid to Pakistan, during the time Pakistan was most economically vulnerable. The IMF, even though it promised to help Pakistan, regardless of the US stance, almost succumbed to pressure from the trump administration, to not assis Pakistan.

If IK hadn't met Trump, I don't doubt that Pakistan would be far more economically weaker, if not outright bankrupt.

If you are talking about the suspension of aid that US had been giving, I remember ppl in this forum saying that the amount was so little (few hundred millions) and all that would have came with "Do More" which Pakistan didnt want to accept anyway and a lot of ppl here were happy with China's investment, so I am not sure in what way Trump made Pakistan's life difficult anymore than the previous admins did. Wasn't it under Obama admin that they used to do drone attacks, which IK critisized Obama for? What did Trump do that is equal to that? if EU, Canada and other nations have trade or other issues with him, its not in any way Pakistan's issue

I was actually one of those people, but what I didnt realize at the time was that Pakistan was in no condition to reject the aid. I had assumed that since the Saudis and the Chinese had promised billions in aid to help Pakistan, that Pakistan would be okay. Turns out, that a majority of that money never materialized.

To this day, the US is the only nation to say they're gonna give Pakistan aid, and actually keep their end of the bargain. Now that bargain tends to be unfair for Pakistan, like the whole war on terror, which cost Pakistan upwards of 200 billion dollars, compared to the 33 billion, but that's Pakistan's fault for not analyzing the situation properly.

As for Obama and the drone strikes...well, its complicated.

While the drone program was publically opposed by Pakistan, it's pretty much an open secret that both the civilian and military leaders of Pakistan supported it, as a lot of the strikes also targeted TTP militants, and the CIA tended to use intelligence given to them by the ISI.

Obama himself was never openly opposed to Pakistan, even if he made off handed anti-Pakistan remarks.

In fact, he tried to literally give Pakistan f-16, even when Pakistan was reluctant, and if Congress hadn't blocked the transfer, Pakistan would have had more F-16 blk52s right now. Pakistan would probably have AH1Zs right now as well.

On a side note, IK seems to have done what very few global leaders have managed to do, get on Trumps good side, to the point we see Trump openly defending Pakistan in India itself. No matter what anyone wants to say about IK, he's had the most successful foreign policy of any Pakistani civilian leader.

 

[Nilgiri]

As for IK, I’m sorry to say he is no better in this regard, imo a lot worse. The same forces that always undermine democracy in Pakistan have done it again. In 1989, the establishment feared Benazir and they propped up Nawaz Sharif to help him win the 1990 election. That same establishment turned on Sharif a little while later much to his dismay. And we all know what happened to him in the last 3 years, and who he blames for it. IK will learn this the hard way too.

Can you tell me what makes IK a lot worse (in your opinion) in this larger cycle?

Did he make more connections/lackeying with the "establishment" proportionately more to the rest before him...or should he just know better given things are fairly downstream (given the number of cycles that have happened and now crystallised as open fact if you just look)....or is this another reason?

To me, they are all more or less the same, I used "musical chairs" a few times on this forum for the politics below the establishment.

 

[jericho]

And thats the thing. Before trump and ik met, trump almost immediately after gaining power, stopped economic aid to Pakistan, during the time Pakistan was most economically vulnerable. The IMF, even though it promised to help Pakistan, regardless of the US stance, almost succumbed to pressure from the trump administration, to not assis Pakistan.

If IK hadn't met Trump, I don't doubt that Pakistan would be far more economically weaker, if not outright bankrupt.

If I remember correctly, it took about around a year after Trump got elected before he spoke about suspending aid to Pakistan. As far as Pakistan being economically weak, that is because the loot that PMLN/PPP were doing and shared power. They should take the blame before anyone else let alone Trump.

I was actually one of those people, but what I didnt realize at the time was that Pakistan was in no condition to reject the aid. I had assumed that since the Saudis and the Chinese had promised billions in aid to help Pakistan, that Pakistan would be okay. Turns out, that a majority of that money never materialized.

If I remember correctly from about a year ago, I recall an Asad Umar interview with BBC (i think) in which he mentioned he was able to lower the IMF 6bn deal because part of the money needed at that time had already been contributed by friendly nations, so they did do something I suppose.

As for Obama and the drone strikes...well, its complicated.

While the drone program was publically opposed by Pakistan, it's pretty much an open secret that both the civilian and military leaders of Pakistan supported it, as a lot of the strikes also targeted TTP militants, and the CIA tended to use intelligence given to them by the ISI.

Obama himself was never openly opposed to Pakistan, even if he made off handed anti-Pakistan remarks.

That era was indeed complicated because we couldn't trust our own leaders and what was going on, but those drone strike did indeed affect civilians and IK did openly criticized Obama. I am sure if all of that happened under Trump administration, most Pakistanis would have blamed him forever, but they forget about Obama because how CNN/EU/Canada/other nations portray him. I rather focus on how Pakistan is treated than how other nations are treated.

On a side note, IK seems to have done what very few global leaders have managed to do, get on Trumps good side, to the point we see Trump openly defending Pakistan in India itself. No matter what anyone wants to say about IK, he's had the most successful foreign policy of any Pakistani civilian leader.

This is why I don't think Trump created any extraordinary problem for Pakistan anymore than what previous gov did. He has his "America first" policy which hurts trade or other deals with other nations, but Pakistan have never been singled out (thankfully) by any of his policy. On the other hand, most Pakistanis were upset at him because of travel ban on few nations but even those weren't aimed at Pakistan.

 

[fisher1]

You have to prove he actively lied, and that includes intent.

LOL. This is hilarious. At least you didn't say he didn't lie, he lied but without intent

Making a promise, and trying to keep it, but failing, is not the same as making a promise and breaking it.

I can hear a patwari and jiyala saying the same thing about their leaders. Hey, they tried but it's hard to keep promises you know, yeh kursi bari kameeni hai.

This is the truth, whether you like it or not.

Your opinion. Not truth.

Tax evasion amnesty is not the same as tax cuts for the rich. Nor was this specifically meant for rich people alone. In fact, a lot of the black money outside of people is held by the upper middle class, not the rich.

You're purposefully misleading people here.

Yep. IKs one is halal because his niyat is halal. Ganjus niyat was bad.

You have no idea how politics works, that much is clear.

Sell your soul and do everything including using Islam to get in power? Oh but i know politics very well. Nawaz and Zardari called their haramipan politics too.

If you don't remember, as soon as Trumo came to power, he cut off financial assistance to Pakistan, and placed undeclared sanctions. It got so bad to the point that it looked lie Pakistan would not be able to get an emergency bailout.

Didn't IK promised suicide before taking loans? Didn't he "felt shame" seeing other leaders with kashkols sitting in other countries? Didn't he call Americans stupid for electing Trump.

He DID close the borders, but it was morons who kept putting pressure on him to reopen them.

Lest we forget, morons started saying India is bringing people back, and were criticizing Pakistan for not doing so as well.

As well, people are refusing to stay at home, and continue to congregate in large numbers, despite government orders. Don't blame IK for that.

No, he didn't. I personally witnessed it. Even up until February.

Once coronavirus got into country, it's irrelevant what he does.

The project was a failure, and IK should answer for that, but unlike NS, who ONLY invested in vanity projects, you CANNOT deny that KPK saw massive improved education and healthcare situation during PTI's first tenure.

8 years in KPK and it's still a shithole. Punjab is still superior in education and healthcare. We have to goto Punjab for superior education and healthcare. Wonder why 8 years of investment in education and healthcare and it's still a shithole?

First off, those are small in number, if you actually bothered to read the article itself, which you clearly didn't.

Second, it even says in the article that NAB KP is investigating the situation. If IK was as corrupt as you claim, why would he allow the NAB to investigate this?

So small corruption is okay? Mkay.

NAB is worthless piece of shit. NAB can investigate IK and nothing would happen even when judgement day comes.

What a nonsensical argument too. NAB was investigating Nawaz Sharif too during his government. If Nawaz Sharif was as corrupt then why did he allow himself to be investigated?

Imran Khan has learned an amazing trick while bedding those hotties every night in England. The art of optics and illusion. Which is why a liar appears honest to people.

Oh shut up.

Everyone, even on PDF were saying that he should be allowed to go and get checked.

This also still doesn't change the fact that he was tried and convicted of corruption.

You can pretend all you want to, that still won't change facts.

So PDF dictates IK? Interesting.

I always tell morons like this, why should I? You engaging in logical fallacies won't change anything.

Don't be afraid. You don't have to live under that harami munafiqs government. We will suffer for you. Just have the honesty in yourself to not insult our suffering by singing praises of haramkhor munafiqs, okay?

From engaging in shoddy logical fallacies, to making outright misleading comments, to outright lies, you've done nothing more than prove just how little you actually know.

Doing a quick google search, and not even reading your own sources.

Dismissing my arguments without addressing them.

Engaging in what aboutisms.

Your entire argument boils down to your feelings got hurt, because you expected him to fix Pakistan within a day.

Welcome to real life, where things aren't sunshine and rainbows. Where people have to look at the world realistically, instead of engaging in pointless idealism.

You've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that you're an unreasonable person.

Heh. You're not the first youthiya who resorts to attacking my character when it gets hard to defend IK. And to whom nothing appears as facts when it's against IK. Then again, patwaris also find everything said against their leaders as lies.

Sunshine and rainbows and idealism. Hmm, i wonder who showed these to Pakistanis for 22 years nonstop, got their votes then did exactly what the people he was doing "jihad" against did? I just can't place his name

 

[Zibago]

I don't know man, Pakistan has more loans than it did in 2018 and it's doing fine. It's really confusing this term called bankruptcy. Because i remember even during bankruptcy in 2018, PTI had the money to waste on jhangla bus(IKs terminology). I don't understand how Pakistan can be so close to bankruptcy yet have so much money to spend on nonsense. It feels like politicians bullshit.

Your understanding of debt is the problem here Pakistan had to cut spending by the billions in multiple projects all over the country we are not in a stable position right now at all and yet you spread nonsense . Your feelings dont matter the reality matters

Imran Khan is a pathological liar, he breaks his promises, his word can never be trusted. Imran Khan is like a living perfect example of that hadith and he's actually proud of it.

Nah thats just you leaders change their policies depending on situation

Yes of course, Peshawar BRT was created that evil Nawaz Sharif. KPK needed healthcare and education spending. If only we had IK in power in KPK.

Do you know the figures of spending on health and education by KPK and Punjab in the last year?

Didn't IK promised suicide before taking loans? Didn't he "felt shame" seeing other leaders with kashkols sitting in other countries? Didn't he call Americans stupid for electing Trump.

Do you know where we stood in June 2018? How close we were to bankruptcy?

No, he didn't. I personally witnessed it. Even up until February.

Yeah he did

NAB is worthless piece of shit. NAB can investigate IK and nothing would happen even when judgement day comes.

Nothing will happen because nothing wrong has happened

What a nonsensical argument too. NAB was investigating Nawaz Sharif too during his government. If Nawaz Sharif was as corrupt then why did he allow himself to be investigated?

Yeah because Nawaz actually had huge disparities between his sources and his earnings your neefa podri went to court 5 times against IK everytime he couldnt find anything

Heh. You're not the first youthiya who resorts to attacking my character when it gets hard to defend IK. And to whom nothing appears as facts when it's against IK. Then again, patwaris also find everything said against their leaders as lies.

Baboon leagi chutiye galiyan na dein to behtar hy

 

[fisher1]

Your understanding of debt is the problem here Pakistan had to cut spending by the billions in multiple projects all over the country we are not in a stable position right now at all and yet you spread nonsense . Your feelings dont matter the reality matters

Nah thats just you leaders change their policies depending on situation

Do you know the figures of spending on health and education by KPK and Punjab in the last year?

Do you know where we stood in June 2018? How close we were to bankruptcy?

Yeah he did

Nothing will happen because nothing wrong has happened

Yeah because Nawaz actually had huge disparities between his sources and his earnings your neefa podri went to court 5 times against IK everytime he couldnt find anything

Baboon leagi chutiye galiyan na dein to behtar hy

Oh no, i seemed to have committed blasphemy by criticising youthiyas leader and now they're ganging up on me.

I will take my leave from this thread. You people continue your worship.

 

[Zibago]

You're purposefully misleading people here.

He is just rehashing pmln twitter feed

Can you tell me what makes IK a lot worse (in your opinion) in this larger cycle?

Did he make more connections/lackeying with the "establishment" proportionately more to the rest before him...or should he just know better given things are fairly downstream (given the number of cycles that have happened and now crystallised as open fact if you just look)....or is this another reason?

To me, they are all more or less the same, I used "musical chairs" a few times on this forum for the politics below the establishment.

Some people when they dont have their way just blame the establishment for their own failures
A lot of the hatred that his thrown on IK has more to do with him just not being the guy they like not his policies or politics
Its as crazy as Trump in US they dont even look for reasons now

Oh no, i seemed to have committed blasphemy by criticising youthiyas leader and now they're ganging up on me.

Baboon leagi chutiye gali deney sey pehly yaad rakhein wapis gali parey gi

 

[That Guy]

Oh no, i seemed to have committed blasphemy by criticising youthiyas leader and now they're ganging up on me.

I will take my leave from this thread. You people continue your worship.

These are the words of a man who lost, but doesn't want to admit it.

All your entire comments boiled down is that you don't understand how politics and economics work.

You literally just repeated yourself in the reply to me, either ignoring everything I said, or using strawman arguments against me.

You lack basic critical thinking skills, that much is very clear.

 

[Chakar The Great]

You have to prove he actively lied, and that includes intent.

Making a promise, and trying to keep it, but failing, is not the same as making a promise and breaking it.



This is the truth, whether you like it or not.



Tax evasion amnesty is not the same as tax cuts for the rich. Nor was this specifically meant for rich people alone. In fact, a lot of the black money outside of people is held by the upper middle class, not the rich.

You're purposefully misleading people here.




You have no idea how politics works, that much is clear.




Pakistan was never bankrupt, just close to it.

If you're talking about the meteor bus service, that was started by the previous gov. If you're talking about the project in KPK, that's a good question, and should be investigated.


If you don't remember, as soon as Trumo came to power, he cut off financial assistance to Pakistan, and placed undeclared sanctions. It got so bad to the point that it looked lie Pakistan would not be able to get an emergency bailout.


He DID close the borders, but it was morons who kept putting pressure on him to reopen them.

Lest we forget, morons started saying India is bringing people back, and were criticizing Pakistan for not doing so as well.

As well, people are refusing to stay at home, and continue to congregate in large numbers, despite government orders. Don't blame IK for that.



You're quite literally moving the goal post, and engaging in conspiracy theory crafting. Have some self respect.


And why would he be wrong? The coronavirus has put even rich countries on the verge of economic catastrophe. What makes you think that Pakistan would be immune?



The project was a failure, and IK should answer for that, but unlike NS, who ONLY invested in vanity projects, you CANNOT deny that KPK saw massive improved education and healthcare situation during PTI's first tenure.

What's pathetic is that you're clearly using strawman arguments, and dismissing my very legitimate points, by engaging in whataboutism.



First off, those are small in number, if you actually bothered to read the article itself, which you clearly didn't.

Second, it even says in the article that NAB KP is investigating the situation. If IK was as corrupt as you claim, why would he allow the NAB to investigate this?



Oh shut up.

Everyone, even on PDF were saying that he should be allowed to go and get checked.

This also still doesn't change the fact that he was tried and convicted of corruption.

You can pretend all you want to, that still won't change facts.


I always tell morons like this, why should I? You engaging in logical fallacies won't change anything.


From engaging in shoddy logical fallacies, to making outright misleading comments, to outright lies, you've done nothing more than prove just how little you actually know.

Doing a quick google search, and not even reading your own sources.

Dismissing my arguments without addressing them.

Engaging in what aboutisms.

Your entire argument boils down to your feelings got hurt, because you expected him to fix Pakistan within a day.

Welcome to real life, where things aren't sunshine and rainbows. Where people have to look at the world realistically, instead of engaging in pointless idealism.

You've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that you're an unreasonable person.

Very comprehensive reply. Thankyou

All perspectives are relative, none can be absolute (that's for "up there"...far away from human imperfection altogether). Hence the logical basis for democracy.

This is just a "starter-pack" upstream summary on it (for broad comparison on the underlying concept I'm trying to get at).

I know the downstream, resolute arguments you have (they plague my mind from time to time, just so you know its not all in vain.... thanks!), but that gets further and further from relevancy for this thread...

I was about to give my "few words" as "He came, He saw, He tried...." or some humorous anecdote like that initially (when I noticed this thread first pop up).... but since That_Guy tagged me for some input, I decided to go for bit more.

What do you have to do with IK?

Why do you guys poke in every other thread?