Failure of India to Resist the Turkic Conquests

[Maula Jatt]

This begs another question though,,,, why conterminous Pakistan failed hopelessly n hilariously to resist any n every invasion???
what's the cause,, that they could never manage to resist living under foreign occupation?
I mean it's evident they were incompetent n perhaps cowards but to be ruled by foreigners for milleniums,,,, well umm ,,, despite having natural barriers like sea n mountains on borders,, despite having large population,, despite having fertile lands,,, they always , without fail managed to be humiliated by invading forces.
Perhaps Hekikethikimet bhayye can post some video about that too.

There was literally nothing here till you probably reach Lahore

Semi-desert with tribes scattered over distances, who faught if raiding happened but if a bigger army they join the army and go to the cities for loot- it was flat land from the end of hilly potohar till probably ganga areas

Sindh probably had a bigger pop than western Punjab at the time, and they always had thier local kingdoms

Modern day pop density is a recent phenomen mostly mix of Sindhi, balochi, Pashtun, Kashmiris, and migrants of other side of Punjab (they were offered incentive to move a lil something of American west expansion of SC) who speak punjabi or it's dialects nowadays but like ethnically speaking they're recent migrants of last 100-150 years

Examples of recent migration Fawad Khan, my own mothers side have Khan in thier surname and don't look like ganga people but can't speak a word of pashto and consider themselves Punjabi- just like I do, CM Punjab is a balochi but I am not too sure if he speaks balochi

So modern western Punjab is made up of all different Indus people migrants (including east Punjab) buying lands and speaking local language- so contemporary people group cannot be judged as truly local people as those tribes are probably a minuscule amount of population now

Evidence most historical sites of Indus (not just IVC I am including all of em throughout history) are not located along canal colonies where we have the most density - so the historical Indus people moved out and settled in new canal colonies, had a population boom as happens in any fertile region

So what you're discussing are those tribes not contemporary people as contemporary people are just Sindhi, balochi, Pashtun, east Punjabi, kashmiris who just speak the local language

 

[Maula Jatt]

Well there's arabian sea, hindukush n himalaya on three sides,,,,,, not to mention the apparently martial people of Punjab.
But nothing seemed to deter any invader,,,,everyone had thr way without any meaningful resistance from locals.

Sindh was on Arabian sea not Punjab and they always had thier own Sindh based Kingdoms, no one invaded from Himalaya and people of Himalayas are not Punjabis, they're gilgit, kashmiris, Hindu Kush was a Pashtun area- the guys who invaded
So no boundary for tribes who settled there

 

[K_Bin_W]

That may be true but listening to "xyz" tunes is not quiet the same as labelling or promoting your food/culture/etc in foreign land as "xyz"

Its not a question of "may be" its the history.. Peroid.... Don't care about food & culture, I enjoy the best.

 

[Kamikaze Pilot]

That is very, very true. Can you take time to thank Pakistani's in helping you on that front. The other week I was in my favourite restaurent when I saw a English couple ecstatic while eating meat namkeen karhai, beef Chapli kebabs with slices of Peshawari nan washed down with piping hot kawa. The guy looked at me and said "Indian food is the best" with thumbs up.

I was going to explain to him that the lala who is the cef is Pakistani, the owner is Pakistani, the waiters are Pakistani and that is why you won't see drop of alcohol around here. But I knew I was on a impossible mission because the menu and signs read "fine Indian dining" even if the name of the place was Dera Peshawar.

I guess as a Pakistani I will just have to carry the can for pedophiles, terrorists, inbreeding, radicals, bombs, guns and drugs. *SIGH*

Was the situation same before 9/11?

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

This begs another question though,,,, why conterminous Pakistan failed hopelessly n hilariously to resist any n every invasion???
what's the cause,, that they could never manage to resist living under foreign occupation?
I mean it's evident they were incompetent n perhaps cowards but to be ruled by foreigners for milleniums,,,, well umm ,,, despite having natural barriers like sea n mountains on borders,, despite having large population,, despite having fertile lands,,, they always , without fail managed to be humiliated by invading forces.
Perhaps Hekikethikimet bhayye can post some video about that too.

What is now modern-day Pakistan was comprised of warring city states, petty kingdoms and tribes. Even what is now Punjab was largely comprised of pastoralist tribes and a few major cities, it wasn't until the British built the irrigation system in Punjab that the region saw a massive agricultural and population boom.

Whenever an invading foreign army entered the region, these warring factions did not see this invading force as a hostile threat that should be resisted, but rather an opportunity that could be utilized to gain the upper hand against their rivals and to emerge with a stronger strategic footing.

This why in many cases, invading armies were often met with more local collaboration rather than local resistance, there was little strategic reasoning for these factions to resist an invading army.

That is not to say that invading forces did not face any resistance at all, there were always some polities or tribes, that for whatever reason, would attempt opposition. The ground for their lack of success in such cases was simply because these were isolated tribes/polities facing off against the most powerful empires of their time.

When Alexander invaded the Indus Valley, the most powerful kingdom of the region: Taxila, joined him (hoping that they would weaken their rival: Porus). Yet, the despite the backing of Taxila, the resistance he encountered from the few tribes and kingdoms that stood to oppose him was considered legendary by Greek standards and was spoken of for over a millennia.

The only region of modern-day Pakistan which could support large and sustained armies was Sindh. It was from here that emerged the first indigenous polity that was able to unite the Indus region, the Rai Empire, pushing the Huns out of the Indus Valley and defeating numerous Persian and later Arab invasions. It met it's end because of a Hindu Brahmin minister who through court-intrigue was able to take the throne, throwing the Empire into perpetual civil strife and internal conflict. Even under a weakened state, Sindh was able to defeat several foreign invasions, including three major Arab expeditions and one massive Indian invasion from Kannauj, it was this Indian invasion which indirectly paved the way for the success of the fourth Arab expedition under Muhammad Bin Qasim.

If u look at oldmaps Pakistan was always under occupation. Any competent race will at the very least give tough time to invaders(like Afghanistan,, low on resource, less population, minimal fertile land)

If you think that modern-day Afghanistan provided any meaningful resistance to invading armies, then you're very wrong. The notion that Afghanistan was a tough nut for invading armies is a very modern concept, for most of it's history, modern-day Afghanistan has been a walk-over.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

my own mothers side have Khan in thier surname

Having Khan as your surname does not denote Pashtun descent.

North Punjabis began to adopt 'Khan' as a title around the same time as Pashtuns did. This is especially true for Zamindar clans.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Was the situation same before 9/11?

If anything worse. If you think fear of 9/11 was or had any bearing the firm answer is no. Think of this way. Pakistan was a place you went back to but it had no brand presence at all. So when it came to selling anything you sold as Indian, Asian, Halal etc or maybe use the name of your native village or district. You see Lahore, Pindi, Chaman, Khyber etc being used but the branding is alwaysa Indian, Asian, Desi, Halal and of late Afghan.

 

[Maula Jatt]

Having Khan as your surname does not denote Pashtun descent.

North Punjabis began to adopt 'Khan' as a title around the same time as Pashtuns did. This is especially true for Zamindar clans.

I don't take it seriously neither do they, we call ourselves Punjabis and I carry my fathers name which is of a local clan

So it never meant anything but my broder point was the diversity of migration into Punjab after canal colonies but nowadays we don't know who is who, they have assimilated into Punjabs culture

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Talwar e Pakistan delight reading your informative posts.

 

[Genghis khan1]

The important thing to note here is there is nothing "Muslim" about Turkic military prowess. They equal warriors whether they are kaffir Tengrist, secular or ghazi's of Islam. Meaning a Turkic Tengrist will always prevail over a Gangadeshi, shaved, unshaved, circumcised.

Being warrior is innate to the Turkic people.

And for that reason, Pakistan next PM and COAS souls be of Mughal heritage.

 

[El Sidd]

Having Khan as your surname does not denote Pashtun descent.

North Punjabis began to adopt 'Khan' as a title around the same time as Pashtuns did. This is especially true for Zamindar clans.

The Mongols uprooted the social order and shaped it in their image. After the initial Khanate disappeared, small local ones emerged. One can draw parallel with Arabs and their invasion of Persian heartland and beyond and the title of Syed.

Homogeneity of the invading armies from east of Kabul river enjoyed massive advantage against loosely placed alliances guarding what is considered regions heartland, Delhi. The recruitment of invading armies provide clinical evidence as to why locals would not hold on to lands they knew better than invaders.

Even today Sindh and whatever remains of Punjab provide Delhi the cover just like Bihar and UP cover off Bengal. Even today the stark divide in social order and culture and subculture remain evident beyond ritualistic tribal names.

 

[FuturePAF]

But yes, I agree that many Muslims of now have become more "pious" and don't explore science, Nature and the tendency to design something.

All this talk of how great the Turks were, made me wonder why the Ottoman Empire fell. Considering all the areas they controlled, had they developed the technology to exploit the resources and train their people to at least keep pace with Europe, IMHO, they could have survived into the modern era.

A book I read points to the guilds undermining technological advancement within the Ottoman Empire, till the point the empire was exporting raw materials to Europe and importing finished goods. It wasn’t over night , but from around 1700 till 1900, they had ceded their industrial independence to Europe, and in effect their overall independence.

Perhaps in that sense, Merchants trading with local kingdoms have, since time and memorial, created dependencies that have allowed the merchant’s mother country to follow on with conquest. Wasn’t this also how the British took parts of India more or less.

Keeping pace across the full spectrum of human activities in the only way to stay independent. The small Indian kingdoms weren’t ready for contact with a unified more egalitarian more technologically advanced civilization that eventually chose to conquer them. One example is Damascus steel weapons.

 

[TNT]

Even t

Atleast u bothered to answer with reasons.
But then, what u say is true for western part of Conterminous Pakistan only,, while the land east of indus was almost always conjoined with northern India,and had considerable resources n population,,, and that is exactly what is baffling,,,, north Indians plus east of indus Pakistan was easy peasy for every other invader.
If u look at oldmaps Pakistan was always under occupation. Any competent race will at the very least give tough time to invaders(like Afghanistan,, low on resource, less population, minimal fertile land) but look at bhayya people total subjugation in front of everyone.
What is more disturbing is the fact that plenty of Pakistani posters take that eternal bending over as somthng to be proud of.
As if the dead referred to in the name hindukush r not Pakistani but some migrant hindus from namilnadu or assam who were doing zulm on thm
Even after getting a whole moutain named after the incompetence n total failure of thr ancestors,,,getting shafted by everyone left n right.

Those got shafted left and right were actually ur ancestors. Its a nice way to deflect ur own incompetence and cowardness. Modern day Pakistan was populated by hindus, the waves of invasions ousted them mostly, the invaders settled and took the land. More than half of Pakistan is balochistan+KPK and these are the people who settled here around 1000 to 1300 AC. The people of punjab and sindh had converted and they lived there. The spread of Islam made them part of the family and they even helped invaders against hindus.

You see Islam reached bengal as well, how u think it reached there? Yeah right through hindu land, tearing them apart. So dont try to absolve ur ancestors from birden of defeat and cowardice.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

And for that reason, Pakistan next PM and COAS souls be of Mughal heritage.

Most people in Pakistan or India claming such heritage or surname are lower class Shudra or Dalit converts to Islam who went from being Mukherjee to Moghul.

 

[El Sidd]

Everyone including Arabs converted at some point. Sindh I think was first to convert in south Asia

The importance of seas is lost upon majority of Pakistanis living beyond Larkana.

Sindhi traders would have made first contact with the foreign ideology with foreign people through the seas.

Oman and Bahrain provide you the history and why Sumerians were trading with thousands of years ago.

The ideology never manifested itself as colonialism by sword but by argument.