Face Veil removal request in Western Countries

[Verve]

Food for thought ...

1. @Divergent1 has rejected West's Liberal Secularism for Pakistan - that's 'interesting' - although the 'in-between' she mentioned no one is sure of (as no such system exists). Maybe her A-Team will give her some pointers (pun intended).

2. A woman's true physical beauty and attraction is her face - there should be no doubt that! Women are considered precious gems in Islam and covering the face is not about oppression or power of men - far from it. People should get out of their biases and genuinely reflect on the positives of niqab. Those women who have never worn it, should try it for a little time to at least develop a tiny little understanding instead of labelling it as oppressive and backwards. Again, think/reflect and study the Deen.

3. There is nothing 'tharki' about discussing a woman's apparent beauty (i.e. face) in the context of this topic specifically.

4. A woman showing off her curves and skin is gaining what good/positives? That's something they need to think over. Is there really empowerment in having men chase after by flaunting one's self? For the sake of argument, it may be fun but that fun is doing what good for you? How is that shaping you to be a better human? Qualify and Quantify the benefits. In West women flaunt themselves to get up the career ladder, to find a rich+handsome guy to marry, to be praised etc ... all material desires. But this beauty doesn't last, time will catch up and no amount of botox will retain it and then many such women (& men) end up in old people's homes dying alone. If one is ugly from inside, it will show on the face eventually.

5. Women have been supressed the world over (more so in the West than anywhere else, and that's changed in only last 60-70yrs or so), and muslim men really should change their approach as well by learning and embracing Deen to bring themselves and their women folk into the fold. The usual counter argument/question of 'what is Islamic about you that I should be in niqab?' is a valid one, and men should pay heed. Set yourself as an example first and the woman will follow (most will, and those who do not, leave them).

 

[Divergent]

Food for thought ...

1. @Divergent1 has rejected West's Liberal Secularism for Pakistan - that's 'interesting' - although the 'in-between' she mentioned no one is sure of (as no such system exists). Maybe her A-Team will give her some pointers (pun intended).

2. A woman's true physical beauty and attraction is her face - there should be no doubt that! Women are considered gems in Islam and covering the face is not about oppression or power of men - far from it. People should get out of their biases and genuinely reflect on the positives of niqab. Those women who have never worn it, should try it for a little time to at least develop a tiny little understanding instead of labelling it as oppressive and backwards. Again, think/reflect and study the Deen.

3. There is nothing 'tharki' about discussing a woman's apparent beauty (i.e. face) in the context of this topic specifically.

4. A woman showing off her curves and skin is gaining what good/positives? That's something they need to think over. Is there really empowerment in having men chase after by flaunting one's self? For the sake of argument, it may be fun but that fun is doing what good for you? How is that shaping you to be a better human? Qualify and Quantify the benefits. In West women flaunt themselves to get up the career ladder, to find a rich+handsome guy to marry, to be praised etc ... all material desires. But this beauty doesn't last, time will catch up and no amount of botox will retain it and then many such women (& men) end up in old people's homes dying alone. If one is ugly from inside, it will show on the face eventually.

5. Women have been supressed the world over (more so in the West than anywhere else, and that's changed in only last 60-70yrs or so), and muslim men really should change their approach as well by learning and embracing Deen to bring themselves and their women folk into the fold. The usual counter argument/question of 'what is Islamic about you that I should be in niqab?' is a valid one, and men should pay heed. Set yourself as an example first and the woman will follow (most will, and those who do not, leave them).

Yawn. Don't know why you always come on to me

 

[Zibago]

Majority ??? Wahhabis/Hanbalis are a small minority, thankfully

I wouldnt say that

In a proper Muslim government, the Caliph,

Sorry we dont want them

• It is well established in Pakistan.

Its neither banned nor compulsory in Pakistan

And i dont see it changing

2. A woman's true physical beauty and attraction is her face - there should be no doubt that! Women are considered gems in Islam and covering the face is not about oppression or power of men - far from it. People should get out of their biases and genuinely reflect on the positives of niqab. Those women who have never worn it, should try it for a little time to at least develop a tiny little understanding instead of labelling it as oppressive and backwards. Again, think/reflect and study the Deen.

And we should leave it to the women herself when she is an adult on how she wants to conduct herself in the society

4. A woman showing off her curves and skin is gaining what good/positives? That's something they need to think over. Is there really empowerment in having men chase after by flaunting one's self? For the sake of argument, it may be fun but that fun is doing what good for you? How is that shaping you to be a better human? Qualify and Quantify the benefits. In West women flaunt themselves to get up the career ladder, to find a rich+handsome guy to marry, to be praised etc ... all material desires. But this beauty doesn't last, time will catch up and no amount of botox will retain it and then many such women (& men) end up in old people's homes dying alone. If one is ugly from inside, it will show on the face eventually.

She is responsible for her own misery in future i dont think others should interfere in her life as long as she is not hurting anyone or doing anything illegal

 

[M. Sarmad]

No, I am showing how ineffective your minority is. A majority can make changes through consensus. If you are the majority, make the change you want. Claiming something as 'Fardh' when it is actually not 'Fardh' is a big thing. Such an enormity should be countered by the majority and expunged from the country. Why don't you make this happen?

There is no official dress code in Pakistan that makes it Mandatory for women to cover their faces. (Not in Saudia even)

It's you guys who want "change". You guys (the minority)believe that face covering is mandatory in Islam, You can not make this change through consensus as you are a tiny minority, but You can go to the Federal Shariat Court and file a petition asking for a mandatory face veil for all women who choose to step out of their homes, arguing that Face veils are compulsory in Islam and as per the constitution of Pakistan, it's the duty of the state to enable its citizens to live their lives in accordance with Islam....


And Best of luck with that !!

 

[Verve]

Yawn. Don't know why you always come on to me

'come on to me' ... lol ... Missy, ... nevermind!

Just reflect. You are starting debates on sensitive issues where you are not willing to even consider other's opinion so what really is the point? You want to prove that you are right? What do you gain by that? Have you learnt all in your life that you do not need to learn anymore?

Debate yes, but do give considerations to what others are saying as well instead of blanket rejections. Try to understand where they are coming from as well. Pointless otherwise.

 

[M. Sarmad]

I can start with several hundred you would know yourself if you have bothered to study this vast majority of scholars have always considered covering face compulsory others said not compulsory but preferred

No, you can only copy-paste stuff from sub-standard religious blogs.. That's all you can do... I have known you for years now

Please backup those figures

I am waiting

 

[Verve]

And we should leave it to the women herself when she is an adult on how she wants to conduct herself in the society
She is responsible for her own misery in future i dont think others should interfere in her life as long as she is not hurting anyone or doing anything illegal

I'm not dictating bro. I am just giving pointers for people to think about.

Issue is that we are all becoming 'must win this debate at all costs' types. I want to avoid getting stuck in such a rut and asking others not to as well.

 

[Zarvan]

No, you can only copy-paste stuff from sub-standard religious blogs.. That's all you can do... I have known you for years now

Please backup those figures

I am waiting

Abu Juhal and Yazeed and Firaun also used to laugh a lot. AS for figures well majority always have considered Niqab cars this includes greats like 4 Imam of Fiqh and and collectors of Hadith and IBN Qayyaum and IBN Taimyaah and several others. What I copy paste is nothing but Quran and Sunnah unlike traitors who reject Hadith and betray RASOOL SAW.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Abu Juhal and Yazeed and Firaun also used to laugh a lot. AS for figures well majority always have considered Niqab cars this includes greats like 4 Imam of Fiqh and and collectors of Hadith and IBN Qayyaum and IBN Taimyaah and several others. What I copy paste is nothing but Quran and Sunnah unlike traitors who reject Hadith and betray RASOOL SAW.

More lies ??

You and @CriticalThought have claimed that (all) 4 Imams of Fiqh have declared Niqab Fardh (a shameless and blatant lie of course) ... But none of you has been able to post anything to backup this outrageous claim.


As for Ibne Taimiyyah, his opinions carry zero weight/significance for those who are not Wahhabis...

 

[El Sidd]

These are discussions when the belly is full and stove still warm.

People are dying of hunger, thirst and lack of healthcare and the veil seems to be the choice of our struggle. I guess we also have a veil on our eyes and mind that we are so oblivious to the reality.

We are not providing basic human rights to women and find newer ideas of oppressing them. We have no system to make sure they get their share in inheritance, education is still taboo in many places, we have people abusing the divorce laws and we are oppressing them with social evils like muttah and halala.

Yet we are here discussing pointless issues.

Mohammed empowered women first and we are hell bent on undoing that.

Stop this double standard and stop masquerading cultural oppression as islamic values.

 

[Divergent]

'come on to me' ... lol ... Missy, ... nevermind!

Just reflect. You are starting debates on sensitive issues where you are not willing to even consider other's opinion so what really is the point? You want to prove that you are right? What do you gain by that? Have you learnt all in your life that you do not need to learn anymore?

Debate yes, but do give considerations to what others are saying as well instead of blanket rejections. Try to understand where they are coming from as well. Pointless otherwise.

I don't debate with people who misquote, carry personal attacks or get aroused by hands and feet.

These are discussions when the belly is full and stove still war.

People are dying of hunger, thirst and lack of healthcare and the veil seems to be the choice of our struggle. I guess we also have a veil on our eyes and mind that we are so oblivious to the reality.

We are not providing basic human rights to women and find newer ideas of oppressing them. We have no system to make sure they get their share in inheritance, education is still taboo in many places, we have people abusing the divorce laws and we are oppressing them with social evils like muttah and halala.

Yet we are here discussing pointless issues.

Mohammed empowered women first and we are hell bent on undoing that.

Stop this double standard and stop masquerading cultural oppression as islamic values.

YESSS I agree!

 

[CriticalThought]

There is no official dress code in Pakistan that makes it Mandatory for women to cover their faces. (Not in Saudia even)

It's you guys who want "change". You guys (the minority)believe that face covering is mandatory in Islam, You can not make this change through consensus as you are a tiny minority, but You can go to the Federal Shariat Court and file a petition asking for a mandatory face veil for all women who choose to step out of their homes, arguing that Face veils are compulsory in Islam and as per the constitution of Pakistan, it's the duty of the state to enable its citizens to live their lives in accordance with Islam....


And Best of luck with that !!

As I already said, Pakistan doesn't really have an Islamic government. Given that successive governments have done their best to try and systematically change the very fabric of society towards irreligiousness and materialism, we are fighting tooth and nail for issues in priority order. The declaration of Qaadiyanis as non-Muslims has been a historic win. Similarly for prohibition of alcohol. The matter of blasphemy keeps cropping up every now and then. There are many things we need to focus on.

What is in minority is true God fearing Muslims. Forget face veil, how many even perform five times prayers regularly? Would you say that (Ma'aaz Allah) majority of people in Pakistan don't believe that five times prayers are Fardh?

But if you really think face veil is not Fardh, then the minority is misleading people and you should do something about it. With majority of people in government being secular, you should just get the face veil banned. That's when you will realize what the majority really thinks.

 

[Zarvan]

More lies ??

You and @CriticalThought have claimed that 4 Imams of Fiqh have declared Niqab Fardh (a shameless and blatant lie of course) ... But none of you has been able to post anything to backup this outrageous claim.

YES all four of them considered Niqab farz It's outrageous to only those who hate Islam from inside but hide. All 4 have have considered Niqab and also most of there students had same view

 

[Zarvan]

Explanation of Eminent Mufasireen



1. “Imam Ibn Jarir at-Tabri (Rahimuhullah) and Imam al Hafidh Ibn Kathir (Rahimuhullah) mention under 33:59”

حدثنـي علـيّ، قال: ثنا أبو صالـح، قال: ثنـي معاوية، عن علـيّ، عن ابن عبـاس، قوله: { يا أيُّها النَّبِـيُّ قُلْ لأَزْوَاجِكَ وَبَناتِكَ وَنِساءِ الـمُؤْمِنِـينَ يُدْنِـينَ عَلَـيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلابِـيبِهِنَّ } أمر الله نساء الـمؤمنـين إذا خرجن من بـيوتهنّ فـي حاجة أن يغطين وجوههنّ من فوق رؤوسهنّ بـالـجلابـيب، ويبدين عيناً واحدة

Translation: Ibn Abbas(RA) narrated regarding (Allah’s) order [O Prophet! Tell thy wives and thy daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them…] that Allah commanded the believing women, when they went out of their houses for some need, to cover their faces from above their heads with the Jilbab, leaving only one eye showing






2. Imam Ibn Kathir (rahimuhullah) also adds after narrating the above:

وقال محمد بن سيرين: سألت عبيدة السلماني عن قول الله عز وجل: { يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِن جَلَـٰبِيبِهِنَّ } فغطى وجهه ورأسه، وأبرز عينه اليسرى

Translation: Muhammad bin Sirin said: "I asked `Ubaydah As-Salmani about the Ayahto draw their Jalabib over their bodies.) He covered his face and head, with just his left eye showing.''[Tafsir al Quran al Azim]

Note: Ibn Abbas (RA) holds the highest rank amongst Sahaba in exegesis of Quran






3. “Imam Qurtubi (Rahimuhullah) under 33:59”

فقال ابن عباس وعَبيدة السَّلْمانيّ: ذلك أن تلوِيه المرأة حتى لا يظهر منها إلا عين واحدة تُبصر بها

Ibn Abbas (RA) and Ubaida as Salmaani(RA) said: It (Jilbab) should fully cover the body of woman and nothing should appear but one eye with which she can see."





4. ”Imam Jalal ud din Suyuti (Rahimuhullah) under 33:59”

يَا أَيّهَا النَّبِيّ قُلْ لِأَزْوَاجِك وَبَنَاتك وَنِسَاء الْمُؤْمِنِينَ يُدْنِينَ عَلَيْهِنَّ مِنْ جَلَابِيبهنَّ" جَمْع جِلْبَاب وَهِيَ الْمُلَاءَة الَّتِي تَشْتَمِل بِهَا الْمَرْأَة أَيْ يُرْخِينَ بَعْضهَا عَلَى الْوُجُوه إذَا خَرَجْنَ لِحَاجَتِهِنَّ إلَّا عَيْنًا وَاحِدَة "ذَلِكَ أَدْنَى" أَقْرَب إلَى "أَنْ يُعْرَفْنَ" بِأَنَّهُنَّ حَرَائِر "فَلَا يُؤْذَيْنَ" بِالتَّعَرُّضِ لَهُنَّ بِخِلَافِ الْإِمَاء فَلَا يُغَطِّينَ وُجُوههنَّ فَكَانَ الْمُنَافِقُونَ يَتَعَرَّضُونَ لَهُنَّ "وَكَانَ اللَّه غَفُورًا" لِمَا سَلَفَ مِنْهُنَّ مِنْ تَرْك السِّتْر "رَحِيمًا" بِهِنَّ إذْ سَتَرَهُنَّ

Translation: O Prophet! Tell your wives and daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks closely over themselves (jalābīb is the plural of jilbāb, which is a wrap that covers a woman totally) - in other words, let them pull part of it [also] over their faces, leaving one eye [visible], when they need to leave [the house] for something. That makes it likelier that they will be known, to be free women, and not be molested, by being approached. In contrast, slavegirls did not use to cover their faces and so the disbelievers used to pester them. And God is Forgiving, of any occasion in the past when they may have neglected to cover themselves, Merciful, to them in His veiling them.[Tafsir al Jalalyn]

By the way for those who wanted scholars view on this and yes It's copy paste

 

[Verve]

I don't debate with people who misquote, carry personal attacks or get aroused by hands and feet.

Enjoy your biases and assumptions. When a needle gets stuck, it stays stuck for a long time.

All the best.