F-35 Running into more problems as Canada cancels its order

[seven7seven]

by Alicia Freese | December 11, 2012

Canada canceled its order for 65 F-35 fighter jets last week. The Ottawa Citizen reported on Dec. 6 that the decision was prompted by the upcoming release of an audit revealing that the life-cycle cost of the aircrafts will be much higher than originally forecast.

The U.S. Air Force has selected Burlington as one of three bases nationwide for the F-35. The military jets have generated intense controversy in Chittenden County where thousands of residents will be subject to higher noise levels from the new planes.

Canada was one of nine countries - the United States among them - that submitted orders for the aircraft. Its decision to withdraw the order will increase the bill that the other countries must pay. Even before Canada bowed out, a Nov. 28 New York Times article reported that if Lockheed Martin, the primary F-35 contractor, doesn't lock in additional orders for the F-35, the Pentagon's cost estimates of $79 million to $106 million per plane will be too low.

Several other countries with F-35 orders are second-guessing their purchases as well. The United Kingdom, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Turkey, Israel and Japan have all placed orders but, according to the New York Times article, Italy has reduced its order by 30 percent, the Netherlands has considered withdrawing its order, and Britain and Australia have not determined how many planes they want.

In the United States, there is waning enthusiasm among some government and military officials for the war jets. The New York Times article cites concerns about persistent technological glitches and worries that the F-35 flight range will be insufficient. The article also examined the likelihood that the F-35 program will fall victim to impending budget cuts.

Canada's planned F-35 purchase has been mired in controversy since the Canadian government drastically underestimated the life-cycle costs of the planes. The audit, conducted by KPMG and due out this week, is expected to confirm that total program costs will exceed $30 billion, about $15 billion more than the government's initial public estimate. The Ottawa Citizen also reported that the cancellation also came after Thomas Lawson, Canada's Chief of the Defence Staff, testified that other planes can evade radar.


Canada drops F-35 order, New York Times reports cost of military jets could climb further

 

[selvan33]

by Alicia Freese | December 11, 2012

Canada canceled its order for 65 F-35 fighter jets last week. The Ottawa Citizen reported on Dec. 6 that the decision was prompted by the upcoming release of an audit revealing that the life-cycle cost of the aircrafts will be much higher than originally forecast.

The U.S. Air Force has selected Burlington as one of three bases nationwide for the F-35. The military jets have generated intense controversy in Chittenden County where thousands of residents will be subject to higher noise levels from the new planes.

Canada was one of nine countries - the United States among them - that submitted orders for the aircraft. Its decision to withdraw the order will increase the bill that the other countries must pay. Even before Canada bowed out, a Nov. 28 New York Times article reported that if Lockheed Martin, the primary F-35 contractor, doesn't lock in additional orders for the F-35, the Pentagon's cost estimates of $79 million to $106 million per plane will be too low.

Several other countries with F-35 orders are second-guessing their purchases as well. The United Kingdom, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Turkey, Israel and Japan have all placed orders but, according to the New York Times article, Italy has reduced its order by 30 percent, the Netherlands has considered withdrawing its order, and Britain and Australia have not determined how many planes they want.

In the United States, there is waning enthusiasm among some government and military officials for the war jets. The New York Times article cites concerns about persistent technological glitches and worries that the F-35 flight range will be insufficient. The article also examined the likelihood that the F-35 program will fall victim to impending budget cuts.

Canada's planned F-35 purchase has been mired in controversy since the Canadian government drastically underestimated the life-cycle costs of the planes. The audit, conducted by KPMG and due out this week, is expected to confirm that total program costs will exceed $30 billion, about $15 billion more than the government's initial public estimate. The Ottawa Citizen also reported that the cancellation also came after Thomas Lawson, Canada's Chief of the Defence Staff, testified that other planes can evade radar.


Canada drops F-35 order, New York Times reports cost of military jets could climb further

Sad news for US. but it will be a good news for russia and china because those who are looking for cheap 5th gen fighters might get from anyone of those countries.

 

[seven7seven]

Sad news for US. but it will be a good news for russia and china because those who are looking for cheap 5th gen fighters might get from anyone of those countries.

Yeah, it looks a great aircraft but maybe they are trying to do too much with it and making it prohibitively expensive to buy and maintain. I agree China and Russia are offering much more cost-effective alternatives, maybe not as good, but nearly as good but much more affordable.

I still expect F-35 to be the mainstay of most airforces of the participitating countries but it's looking likely to be far more costly than anyone could have wished for. I think my country will be reducing the numbers we had wanted because of cost overruns.

 

[lander]

Sad news for US. but it will be a good news for russia and china because those who are looking for cheap 5th gen fighters might get from anyone of those countries.

I have a hard time imagining how Russia or China would get any of those orders. The "fifth generation" criteria is a funny thing. It doesn't automatically make the aircraft more capable or even better in certain areas.

Even if the U.K, Italy, Turkey, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Israel or Japan were to cancel their F-35 orders, I seriously doubt there would be anything but American/European to replace them.

 

[selvan33]

Yeah, it looks a great aircraft but maybe they are trying to do too much with it and making it prohibitively expensive to buy and maintain. I agree China and Russia are offering much more cost-effective alternatives, maybe not as good, but nearly as good but much more affordable.

I still expect F-35 to be the mainstay of most airforces of the participitating countries but it's looking likely to be far more costly than anyone could have wished for. I think my country will be reducing the numbers we had wanted because of cost overruns.

yeah that's what i said. china and russia producing slightly lower tech when it compared it US. but its cost effective. and also most of the asian countries cant afford that much. so its enough for us. and how much number you are going to reduce. because i read your air force plans to buy 100+F35A and your navy plans to buy 40+ F35B. is there anynews regarding this reduction.

 

[selvan33]

I have a hard time imagining how Russia or China would get any of those orders. The "fifth generation" criteria is a funny thing. It doesn't automatically make the aircraft more capable or even better in certain areas.

Even if the U.K, Italy, Turkey, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Israel or Japan were to cancel their F-35 orders, I seriously doubt there would be anything but American/European to replace them.

Actually F35 is far far better than pak fa and j 20.because they already mastered the technology. And also another problem in US is they are looking for very low observability with next generation EW suites at affordable or low cost which is quite difficult. but russia and china changed their aircrafts from very low observability to low observability with updated EW suites. thats why they are producing this in a low cost.

 

[jhungary]

People don't know about 2 facts that would change the preception of F-35.

1.Canada never sign the intent to purchase agreement and F-35 was worked around Canadian purchase of the jet.

2. The cost will not rise as F-35 has ended development phase and entered Production phase. We already have squadron operating with F-35, of course the first squadron in USAF and USMC are both education and training squadron.

Country keep saying they will review their purchase in 2008 til now, few have done anything, Turkey and UK are schedule to get the first test aircraft follow by Australia in 2014. THe US are set to get 100th F-35 in 2013.

We should wait and see before passing any judgment on the F-35.

 

[seven7seven]

yeah that's what i said. china and russia producing slightly lower tech when it compared it US. but its cost effective. and also most of the asian countries cant afford that much. so its enough for us. and how much number you are going to reduce. because i read your air force plans to buy 100+F35A and your navy plans to buy 40+ F35B. is there anynews regarding this reduction.

Don't think any decision has been made yet with regards to the final figure we will be procuring but with our worsening economic outlook, I expect the numbers to be reduced by quite a bit. We need to sort out our economy before worrying about how many F-35s we will be buying, sadly.

 

[seven7seven]

I have a hard time imagining how Russia or China would get any of those orders. The "fifth generation" criteria is a funny thing. It doesn't automatically make the aircraft more capable or even better in certain areas.

Even if the U.K, Italy, Turkey, Netherlands, Australia, Norway, Denmark, Israel or Japan were to cancel their F-35 orders, I seriously doubt there would be anything but American/European to replace them.

I don't think any of the participating countries will be jumping ship to get the PAK-FA, J-20 or J-31 but developing countries in Asia and Latin America might seek them out as more viable options, both from a economic and political viewpoint.

 

[Audio]

Sad news for US. but it will be a good news for russia and china because those who are looking for cheap 5th gen fighters might get from anyone of those countries.

there are NATO protocols about interoperability to follow. Anything non NATO, with the exception of the Gripen is out of the question.

 

[rafaleski]

The main culprit in the whole f-35 project is the stovl model. The inclusion of this b-model makes it a true money sucking machine

 

[lander]

People don't know about 2 facts that would change the preception of F-35.

1.Canada never sign the intent to purchase agreement and F-35 was worked around Canadian purchase of the jet.

2. The cost will not rise as F-35 has ended development phase and entered Production phase. We already have squadron operating with F-35, of course the first squadron in USAF and USMC are both education and training squadron.

Country keep saying they will review their purchase in 2008 til now, few have done anything, Turkey and UK are schedule to get the first test aircraft follow by Australia in 2014. THe US are set to get 100th F-35 in 2013.

We should wait and see before passing any judgment on the F-35.

Well it's important to mention that the F-35 isn't cancelled in Canada, but rather part of an open competition. The F-35 might very well be chosen in the long-run, but I think it's great that Canada doesn't go and make such an important and expensive decision without fully evaluating all the options.

I don't think any of the participating countries will be jumping ship to get the PAK-FA, J-20 or J-31 but developing countries in Asia and Latin America might seek them out as more viable options, both from a economic and political viewpoint.

Well, I don't really see a market for budget fifth generation fighters. There just isn't such a thing as a super cheap 5th gen fighter. The PAK-FA will still be expensive, and if done properly, so will the J-20 and J-31. The PAK-FA might have a good export opportunity as current flanker-operators might come to replace them with a fewer number of the latest Sukhoi-model.

 

[seven7seven]

Well, I don't really see a market for budget fifth generation fighters. There just isn't such a thing as a super cheap 5th gen fighter. The PAK-FA will still be expensive, and if done properly, so will the J-20 and J-31. The PAK-FA might have a good export opportunity as current flanker-operators might come to replace them with a fewer number of the latest Sukhoi-model.

Like Audio mentioned above about NATO interoperability, economics may not also be the only stumbling block of some countries from getting access to fifth generation fighters. That's why I said political reasons may also be a factor as both Russia and China have less restrictions about who they can or will sell to. Though I agree that for some countries, the PAK-FA/J-20/J-31 may fall into a limbo category of too much capability for some poorer countries who don't need such an expensive advance fighter and not enough capability for countries who can afford to buy F-35s.

 

[Abingdonboy]

IIRC the UK is reviewing its F-35 numbers too. The UKG may cut orders by 1/3rd. And the PAK-FA is a very credible alternative for any would be customer of the F-35. Many have already said the PAF-KA will be on par if not more capable than the F-22 so it is already ahead of the flawed F-35.

 

[Esc8781]

IIRC the UK is reviewing its F-35 numbers too. The UKG may cut orders by 1/3rd. And the PAK-FA is a very credible alternative for any would be customer of the F-35. Many have already said the PAF-KA will be on par if not more capable than the F-22 so it is already ahead of the flawed F-35.

What do you mean by flawed?