F-2 vs. J-10 Fighter

[Mugwop]

VS

At long ranges, the F-2 would eat the J-10 alive. At short ranges, the tables turn.

Kyle Mizokami

The rivalry between Japan and China over islands in the East China Sea has triggered close encounters between the two sides in the air. Chinese fighters have intercepted Japanese aircraft patrolling the Senkaku Islands (Diaoyu Islands to China), resulting in Japanese fighters being scrambled to intercept.

These aerial encounters in the Western Pacific highlight the People’s Liberation Army Air Force and the Japan Air Self Defense Force. China’s Su-27 and J-11 air superiority fighters are well known to outsiders, as are Japan’s equivalent, the F-15J Eagle.

Less well known are the single-engine multi-role fighters that back up their large, twin-engined cousins. China’s J-10 “Vigorous Dragon”, the first modern Chinese multi-role fighter, was introduced in 2005. An improved variant, the J-10B, has already entered service. Japan’s F-2 multi-role fighter entered service in 2000.

The Mistubishi F-2 fighter is the result of the FSX program, a joint Japanese-American project to develop a multi-role fighter. Both the F/A-18 Hornet and the F-16 Fighting Falcon were proposed as a baseline, with the F-16 eventually winning out. At the time, the FSX program was controversial as many in the U.S. Congress feared transferring advanced fighter technology to Japan.

Officially, the J-10 is the creation of the Chengdu Aircraft Design Group. Unofficially, it too has roots in an American aerospace program. The J-10 bears a striking resemblance to the joint American-Israeli Lavi fighter. Also based on the F-16, the Lavi was eventually canceled due to cost and political concerns. In 1987, the Office of Naval Intelligence stated that China had received Lavi—and thus American—technology, a conclusion shared with Jane’s.

A joint collaboration between Mitsubishi and Lockheed, the F-2 took the basic F-16 design and enlarged it. The aircraft includes a 25% larger wing area, GE F110 engine, and Japan’s J/APG-1, the world’s first active electronic scanning array radar installed on a fighter. It is armed with the Mitsubishi AAM-3 and AAM-5 infra-red guided air-to-air missiles (similar to the AIM-9 Sidewinder) and the AAM-4 radar-guided air-to-air missile (similar to the AIM-7 Sparrow.) The F-2 is also tasked with the anti-invasion mission, and is capable of carrying up to four ASM-2 anti-ship missiles. An M61 20-millimeter gatling gun rounds out the F-2’s armament.
Despite this, the aircraft is generally regarded as a failure. The per unit cost of the F-2 was a staggering $171 million dollars, more than four times that of an F-16C Block 50/52. Needless to say the F-2 was not four times as effective as the F-16. The lone upshot of the F-2 was the opportunity it gave Japan’s aerospace industry to work on a fighter program.
The J-10 fighter is a delta wing design, powered by Russian-made Saturn-Lyulka AL-31 afterburning turbofan engines. The aircraft is equipped with a Type 1473H pulse-doppler radar, and has 11 hard points for weapons and external fuel tanks. For air to air combat, the J-10 carries PL-9 infra-red guided air-to-air missiles and PL-12 radar guided missiles, and the Russian GSh-23 23-millimeter cannon. It can also carry a variety of laser and satellite-guided bombs.
All of that is very good, but which would win? At 520 miles, the F-2 has a better combat radius than the J-10, which is estimated at 340 miles. Assuming the two planes meet each other operating at equal distances from base, this would give the F-2 pilot slightly more fuel to maneuver and spend on speed. The J-10 also has an older design pulse-doppler radar to the F-2’s more modern AESA radar, so the F-2 would probably detect the J-10 first. The two planes are roughly the same weight, but the F-2 has a slightly better thrust to weight ratio.

All in all, the F-2 has the advantage.
The story doesn’t end there, though. Both countries are upgrading the J-10 and F-2. China has already started production of the J-10B. The B model features an improved engine, the AL-31FN, with improved thrust and range. Further improvements include a phased-array radar and infra-red search and track (IRST) for short-range air-to-air engagements.
In the case of Japan F-2 production has already ceased, so the emphasis is on upgrading existing planes. The F-2 is receiving new data links and a new radar, the J/APG-2, which will be mated with the AAM-4B air to air missile. The AAM-4B is currently the only missile in the world with its own AESA radar. The after-launch target lock capability of the AAM-4B allows pilots to launch the missile and begin evasive maneuvers before achieving radar lock.

Japan’s F-2 would have the advantage in long-range fights, being able to launch AAM-4B missiles from beyond visual range and then “turn and burn” in retreat. Thanks to their data links, F-2 units will be able to coordinate these long-range launches for maximum effect. Although China’s new phased array radar may be good, Japan’s long experience in radars means it’s safe to assume that the Japanese radar is better. J-10s might take serious losses in a scrape with the F-2 before they can even engage the enemy.

If on the other hand the J-10 could get in close, the infra-red search and track capability will give the Chinese fighter an advantage in short-range fights. The F-2 has no IRST.
Both the J-10 and F-2 have their advantages and disadvantages. At long ranges, the F-2 would eat the J-10 alive. At short ranges, the tables turn. The long-range battle comes first though, and the F-2’s advantage could be enough to end the fight before both sides enter visual range. In the end, the F-2 comes out ahead in this duel of fighters.

Kyle Mizokami is a defense and national security writer based in San Francisco who has appeared in The Diplomat, Foreign Policy, War is Boring and The Daily Beast. In 2009 he cofounded the defense and security blog Japan Security Watch. You can follow him on TwitterKyleMizokami.

I'd like to add that china can mass produce J-10's and turbofan tech engines also.The japanese have to depend on others for it.

 

[Mugwop]

@Moonlight @Zibago @MastanKhan @ChineseTiger1986 @Chinese-Dragon @grey boy 2 @UKBengali @The Eagle @The SC

 

[UKBengali]

Interesting post but I would disagree that at long ranges the "F-2 would eat the J-10 alive".

The Japanese radar may arguably be better but it is not likely to be so much better than it would give a massive advantage in long-range duels. Even taking out support from AWACs which are nearly always bound to be present, the J-10 will have access to the PL-15 which is reported to have a range of 150-200km and so would be able to hold it's own in BVR fights with the F-2.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I'd like to add that china can mass produce J-10's and turbofan tech engines also.The japanese have to depend on others for it.

China is still dependent on AL 31 for J 10

F 2 has an AESA radar ; it does nt have an IRST

But a single engine plane having GE engine is preferable than a single engine AL 31

J 10 has had many flame outs

Above all Japan is qualitatively still superior to the Chinese in electronics industry

 

[ebrahym]

joint American-Israeli Lavi fighter

na i dont hink US was involved
this project was cancelled due to competition with US jets

I'd like to add that china can mass produce J-10's and turbofan tech engines also.The japanese have to depend on others for it

exactly the scenario of JFT

VS

At long ranges, the F-2 would eat the J-10 alive. At short ranges, the tables turn.

Kyle Mizokami

The rivalry between Japan and China over islands in the East China Sea has triggered close encounters between the two sides in the air. Chinese fighters have intercepted Japanese aircraft patrolling the Senkaku Islands (Diaoyu Islands to China), resulting in Japanese fighters being scrambled to intercept.

These aerial encounters in the Western Pacific highlight the People’s Liberation Army Air Force and the Japan Air Self Defense Force. China’s Su-27 and J-11 air superiority fighters are well known to outsiders, as are Japan’s equivalent, the F-15J Eagle.

Less well known are the single-engine multi-role fighters that back up their large, twin-engined cousins. China’s J-10 “Vigorous Dragon”, the first modern Chinese multi-role fighter, was introduced in 2005. An improved variant, the J-10B, has already entered service. Japan’s F-2 multi-role fighter entered service in 2000.

The Mistubishi F-2 fighter is the result of the FSX program, a joint Japanese-American project to develop a multi-role fighter. Both the F/A-18 Hornet and the F-16 Fighting Falcon were proposed as a baseline, with the F-16 eventually winning out. At the time, the FSX program was controversial as many in the U.S. Congress feared transferring advanced fighter technology to Japan.

Officially, the J-10 is the creation of the Chengdu Aircraft Design Group. Unofficially, it too has roots in an American aerospace program. The J-10 bears a striking resemblance to the joint American-Israeli Lavi fighter. Also based on the F-16, the Lavi was eventually canceled due to cost and political concerns. In 1987, the Office of Naval Intelligence stated that China had received Lavi—and thus American—technology, a conclusion shared with Jane’s.

A joint collaboration between Mitsubishi and Lockheed, the F-2 took the basic F-16 design and enlarged it. The aircraft includes a 25% larger wing area, GE F110 engine, and Japan’s J/APG-1, the world’s first active electronic scanning array radar installed on a fighter. It is armed with the Mitsubishi AAM-3 and AAM-5 infra-red guided air-to-air missiles (similar to the AIM-9 Sidewinder) and the AAM-4 radar-guided air-to-air missile (similar to the AIM-7 Sparrow.) The F-2 is also tasked with the anti-invasion mission, and is capable of carrying up to four ASM-2 anti-ship missiles. An M61 20-millimeter gatling gun rounds out the F-2’s armament.
Despite this, the aircraft is generally regarded as a failure. The per unit cost of the F-2 was a staggering $171 million dollars, more than four times that of an F-16C Block 50/52. Needless to say the F-2 was not four times as effective as the F-16. The lone upshot of the F-2 was the opportunity it gave Japan’s aerospace industry to work on a fighter program.
The J-10 fighter is a delta wing design, powered by Russian-made Saturn-Lyulka AL-31 afterburning turbofan engines. The aircraft is equipped with a Type 1473H pulse-doppler radar, and has 11 hard points for weapons and external fuel tanks. For air to air combat, the J-10 carries PL-9 infra-red guided air-to-air missiles and PL-12 radar guided missiles, and the Russian GSh-23 23-millimeter cannon. It can also carry a variety of laser and satellite-guided bombs.
All of that is very good, but which would win? At 520 miles, the F-2 has a better combat radius than the J-10, which is estimated at 340 miles. Assuming the two planes meet each other operating at equal distances from base, this would give the F-2 pilot slightly more fuel to maneuver and spend on speed. The J-10 also has an older design pulse-doppler radar to the F-2’s more modern AESA radar, so the F-2 would probably detect the J-10 first. The two planes are roughly the same weight, but the F-2 has a slightly better thrust to weight ratio.

All in all, the F-2 has the advantage.
The story doesn’t end there, though. Both countries are upgrading the J-10 and F-2. China has already started production of the J-10B. The B model features an improved engine, the AL-31FN, with improved thrust and range. Further improvements include a phased-array radar and infra-red search and track (IRST) for short-range air-to-air engagements.
In the case of Japan F-2 production has already ceased, so the emphasis is on upgrading existing planes. The F-2 is receiving new data links and a new radar, the J/APG-2, which will be mated with the AAM-4B air to air missile. The AAM-4B is currently the only missile in the world with its own AESA radar. The after-launch target lock capability of the AAM-4B allows pilots to launch the missile and begin evasive maneuvers before achieving radar lock.

Japan’s F-2 would have the advantage in long-range fights, being able to launch AAM-4B missiles from beyond visual range and then “turn and burn” in retreat. Thanks to their data links, F-2 units will be able to coordinate these long-range launches for maximum effect. Although China’s new phased array radar may be good, Japan’s long experience in radars means it’s safe to assume that the Japanese radar is better. J-10s might take serious losses in a scrape with the F-2 before they can even engage the enemy.

If on the other hand the J-10 could get in close, the infra-red search and track capability will give the Chinese fighter an advantage in short-range fights. The F-2 has no IRST.
Both the J-10 and F-2 have their advantages and disadvantages. At long ranges, the F-2 would eat the J-10 alive. At short ranges, the tables turn. The long-range battle comes first though, and the F-2’s advantage could be enough to end the fight before both sides enter visual range. In the end, the F-2 comes out ahead in this duel of fighters.

Kyle Mizokami is a defense and national security writer based in San Francisco who has appeared in The Diplomat, Foreign Policy, War is Boring and The Daily Beast. In 2009 he cofounded the defense and security blog Japan Security Watch. You can follow him on TwitterKyleMizokami.

I'd like to add that china can mass produce J-10's and turbofan tech engines also.The japanese have to depend on others for it.

well i think j-10 is not going to be used for air superiority but for other multi-role purpose like CAS and stuff
F-2 might see J-11 or MKKs in air
both countries have 5th gen programs about to be coming out

well if we observe their battle them due to US weaponry f-2 clearly comes out as a champ
but j-10 specifically the B series can give a headache
moreover the newer configuration the J-10D allegedly uses miniaturized J-31 electronics

 

[Akasa]

All of that is very good, but which would win? At 520 miles, the F-2 has a better combat radius than the J-10, which is estimated at 340 miles.

Not entirely correct; the 340-mile combat radius of the J-10A has never been formally attested; that figure instead came from the website MilAvia, which was later removed. To date, there are no credible estimates of its combat radius, although the only figure being thrown around by semi-credible sources is 1100 km, or 688 miles.

Assuming the two planes meet each other operating at equal distances from base, this would give the F-2 pilot slightly more fuel to maneuver and spend on speed. The J-10 also has an older design pulse-doppler radar to the F-2’s more modern AESA radar, so the F-2 would probably detect the J-10 first. The two planes are roughly the same weight, but the F-2 has a slightly better thrust to weight ratio.

An AESA array does not always confer a first-shoot advantage to an aircraft. There is a wide range to the estimates of the J/APG-1's detection range, from 140-230 km, while the J-10A's PD is believed to have >120 km range. However, the J/APG-1 would offer the F-2 substantially superior LPI modes, more capability multi-target engagement capabilities, and high immunity to enemy jamming.

Moreover, the F-2 is being upgraded with the J/APG-2.

========

The F-2, however, does not have a TWR advantage.

- J-10A loaded weight: 12400 kg (source: SinoDefence.com)
- Al-31FN wet thrust: 12700 kg (source: Salyut)
- J-10A's TWR: 12700/12400 = 1.02

- F-2A loaded weight: 149270 kg (source: Combat Aircraft since 1945, by Stewart Wilson)
- GE F110-GE-129 wet thrust: 129 kN (source: General Electric)
- F-2A's TWR: 129*1000/9.8/14970 = 0.88

The J-10A has a clear and significant TWR advantage over the F-2A.

The AAM-4B is currently the only missile in the world with its own AESA radar.

Not quite; the Chinese PL-15 has an AESA seeker as well. The future PL-21 (first tested in 2013) is expected to follow suit.

http://www.popsci.com/chinese-air-to-air-missile-hits-targets-spooks-usaf-general

This 2014 CGI shows a J-31 stealth fighter launching a long range PL-15 missile. Given USAF concerns about the high performance PL-15, it could indeed feature high performance technologies like range and maneuverability enhancing ramjets, and a jam resistant AESA radar seeker.

Although China’s new phased array radar may be good, Japan’s long experience in radars means it’s safe to assume that the Japanese radar is better.

This is along the same lines as the assertion that, since the Chinese have been building firearms far longer than the Europeans, their assault rifles should be superior to European-manufactured ones. While Japan was the first nation to field AESA radars on combat aircraft, the Chinese followed quickly by installing AESA systems on their KJ-2000 platform. Another point to mention is that we know the Chinese have been experimenting with phased-array radars since the 1970s, when the technology was first used to build their ballistic missile early warning network.

Development of such radars may not have been linear for both nations. While Japan's development of the J/APG-2 has been quite successful and impressive, Chinese institutes have been rolling out far more numerous models of AESA radars (at least to the public eye) than their Japanese counterparts, and thus bestowing the advantage of intra- and inter-corporate competition to the PLAAF brass.

J-10s might take serious losses in a scrape with the F-2 before they can even engage the enemy.

Again, without further insight regarding the radar, RWR, and ECM suites of either aircraft, this assumption is crude at best.

The long-range battle comes first though, and the F-2’s advantage could be enough to end the fight before both sides enter visual range. In the end, the F-2 comes out ahead in this duel of fighters.

And all of this is based on what? The author's assumption that the J/APG-1 would give the F-2 better detection range purely based on the belief that Japan has more experience with AESA radars than the Chinese?

Above all Japan is qualitatively still superior to the Chinese in electronics industry

That does not necessarily translate to a commensurate comparison in the field of military-grade electronics, especially if one government pours massive amounts of R&D into it relative to the other.

 

[Hamza913]

We all know a Pakistani pilot in a J-10 would eat 5 F-2's in under a minute.

Anyway, as far as the jets themselves go, the J-10 is considerably cheaper. You can get 4 of them for every F-2, a better deal in my opinion. Also, it is a better dog fighter and can be equipped with some lethal BVR missiles, so don't count it out in a long range fight.

 

[Major d1]

At long ranges, the F-2 would eat the J-10 alive. At short ranges, the tables turn.

 

[Hamza913]

Above all Japan is qualitatively still superior to the Chinese in electronics industry

Quantity is a quality itself.

 

[Malik Alashter]

I think Japan would a real challenge not only to China but to the US too Japan is the sleeping titan with big economy and top tech in all fields.

 

[Hamza913]

At long ranges, the F-2 would eat the J-10 alive. At short ranges, the tables turn.

J-10 can equip the PL-15 with 200km range, so at long ranges the Dragon is still vigorous.

 

[Major d1]

A joint collaboration between Mitsubishi and Lockheed, the F-2 took the basic F-16 design and enlarged it. The aircraft includes a 25% larger ..

 

[Hamza913]

I think Japan would a real challenge not only to China but to the US too Japan is the sleeping titan with big economy and top tech in all fields.

But they have no experience.

 

[Malik Alashter]

But they have no experience.

What experience you talk about bro?.

 

[Hamza913]

What experience you talk about bro?.

War experience, they haven't been in a conflict since WW2 and are staunch pacifists.