F-16V Lightweight multi-role fighter

[cloud4000]

Can PAF F-16 A/B models be upgraded to V model, or is there some restrictions?

 

[Akasa]

J-10B /C export will get hurt most by F-35 production ramp up. Let me explain. F-35 will push into market a massive numbers of used F-16s available at a nominal cost.

F-16s will be pushed into the 2nd-hand market regardless of the F-35's export prospects. Even if we dismiss the notion that an air force would turn to other competitors should the F-35 run into export issues, the F-16s would have to retire before their airframe lifespan passes.

A country can pick up those, have them MLU'ed and upgrade them to V standards. There you have it a very very potent fighter at a price equal or perhaps lower than J-10C. New vs used argument also won't help as F-16s have at least twice the life of J-10s and MLU would enhance the life beyond that of new J-10.

You can MLU a F-16 all you want, but the airframe's lifespan will not change. There is also a point in time at which the expenses associated with retrofitting and refurbishing old airframes outweigh that of purchasing new aircraft. I would imagine that Lockheed would do anything to retain the lion's share of F-16 MLU contracts, meaning that such retrofits won't come cheap.

I'm also curious as to why you are claiming that a F-16 has a longer lifespan than a J-10.

Factor in that F-16 spares are abundantly available vs J-10 which has only China as its sole supplier. Political and 'other' factors are not catered here and will vary from country to country.

What proportion of those F-16 spares will bring a legacy F-16 to the standards of the F-16V? Lockheed would much rather have the customer pay them to execute MLUs instead.

 

[Khafee]

You can MLU a F-16 all you want, but the airframe's lifespan will not change.

.

"Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years."
F-16 Versions - F-16 MLU

But yes, there is a limit to how much the airframe can be worked on.

 

[Akasa]

"Before an aircraft can be offered for MLU modification, the current state of the airframe is examined in the extensive Aircraft Structural Integrity Program (PACER SLIP). In this modification program, all bulkheads of the aircraft will be examined and repaired (using the so called Cold Working method) if necessary. After PACER SLIP, the aircraft will be able to last at least another 5,000 flying hours and can complete its life expectancy of 30 years."
F-16 Versions - F-16 MLU

But yes, there is a limit to how much the airframe can be worked on.

Okay, I stand corrected. But I'd imagine that the cost of putting an airframe through such retrofits would only increase with age.

 

[Khafee]

Okay, I stand corrected. But I'd imagine that the cost of putting an airframe through such retrofits would only increase with age.

Yes. Depending on the G forces sustained by the airframe in question.

 

[kublaiyuan]

Can PAF F-16 A/B models be upgraded to V model, or is there some restrictions?

that would be major refit but its certainly possible, only down factor is cost and political resistance from India,
F-16 V is very capable plane with awesome AESA radar and modern compliment of A2A missiles it can prove to be more than a match to euro canards.
But again not suitable for long range strike missions will prove to be awesome air defense fighter no doubt.
But cant beat modern SAMs.

 

[jamal18]

I have never been a fan of the f-16 and the US reliance it entails.

However, this is the time to improve Pakistan's facility to mlu f-16's, and the ability to engineer them. They can be re-fitted with our desired radars, even Chinese.

Buy used one's en mass and upgrade them. A massive improvement in Pakistan's arsenal for pennies, like the mirage.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I have never been a fan of the f-16 and the US reliance it entails.

However, this is the time to improve Pakistan's facility to mlu f-16's, and the ability to engineer them. They can be re-fitted with our desired radars, even Chinese.

Buy used one's en mass and upgrade them. A massive improvement in Pakistan's arsenal for pennies, like the mirage.

No way Americans will allow Chinese things on their plane

 

[PakEye]

F-16V "Viper" Lightweight Multi-Role Fighter | Military-Today.com

Is it up gradation is same as PAF has already completed the F-16A/B Mid-Life Update Modification.

 

[Paksanity]

F-16s will be pushed into the 2nd-hand market regardless of the F-35's export prospects. Even if we dismiss the notion that an air force would turn to other competitors should the F-35 run into export issues, the F-16s would have to retire before their airframe lifespan passes.



You can MLU a F-16 all you want, but the airframe's lifespan will not change. There is also a point in time at which the expenses associated with retrofitting and refurbishing old airframes outweigh that of purchasing new aircraft. I would imagine that Lockheed would do anything to retain the lion's share of F-16 MLU contracts, meaning that such retrofits won't come cheap.

I'm also curious as to why you are claiming that a F-16 has a longer lifespan than a J-10.



What proportion of those F-16 spares will bring a legacy F-16 to the standards of the F-16V? Lockheed would much rather have the customer pay them to execute MLUs instead.

F-16 is built to last 8000 hrs of life with 35400 lbs weight operation. After the MLU it can fly 5000 hrs without the need of any inspection. Obviously each aircraft is inspected at MLU and its structural weaknesses if found are fixed. That being said, an F-16 at Fort Worth has already completed 25000 hrs of simulated flight test and Lockheed Martin looks set to extend life to 12000 hrs against initial 8000 hrs.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2015/june/F16-durability-testing.html

Compare it to J-10. While there are no official figures on its structural life, Chinese aircraft are generally built to last 4000 hrs. For example JF-17 has 4000 hrs life. I would guess J-10's life no more than 5000 hrs which is equal to an MLU F-16 life. J-10 would also need to go through overhaul in this time adding to cost, man hours and unavailability. F-16 doesn't require an overhaul in its life.

Let's turn to cost benefits. J-10 B or and C variants are projected at 55-65 million US dollars per aircraft. Cost of MLU if all the options are availed is just under $22 million (Pakistan bought 60 MLU packages at $1.3b). A used F-16 can be had at as little as $15m (block 15-25 versions). That puts total cost under $40m for an MLU F-16 which is good to go for 5000 hrs without any overhaul against a $55m new J-10 good for same 5000 hrs (at best) but with multiple overhauls. Granted MLU cost doesn't include AESA upgrade but if one replaces APG-68 V9 with APG-83 would this single item increase cost by more than $10m? Perhaps but still it will remain cheaper than J-10. Engine is yet another item which saves costs of running. F-100 PW229 of F-16 has 6000 cycle inspection (10-14 yrs of operation) which is far far superior to AL-31F's meagre 1000 hrs MTBO and a total life of mere 3000 hrs. Data on WS-10 is not available but it is generally believed that Chinese engine manufacturing lags behind that of Russians. Let's assume same maintenance penality, F-100 PW229 is six time more maintenance friendly and lasts twice as long.

Given all this, J-10B/ C, IMO would face a fierce competition by MLU'ed F-16s in export markets where F-16s are not politically barred. Contrary to common belief, US aircraft are easier on the pocket in the long run though upfront costs may be higher. In case of MLU, even initial costs are lower. Decision will however differ from case to case basis. As I see it, flooding of market with F-16s will open many choices to different nations.

Further info here
F-16 Versions - F-16 MLU

 

[volatile]

F-16 is built to last 8000 hrs of life with 35400 lbs weight operation. After the MLU it can fly 5000 hrs without the need of any inspection. Obviously each aircraft is inspected at MLU and its structural weaknesses if found are fixed. That being said, an F-16 at Fort Worth has already completed 25000 hrs of simulated flight test and Lockheed Martin looks set to extend life to 12000 hrs against initial 8000 hrs.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/us/news/press-releases/2015/june/F16-durability-testing.html

Compare it to J-10. While there are no official figures on its structural life, Chinese aircraft are generally built to last 4000 hrs. For example JF-17 has 4000 hrs life. I would guess J-10's life no more than 5000 hrs which is equal to an MLU F-16 life. J-10 would also need to go through overhaul in this time adding to cost, man hours and unavailability. F-16 doesn't require an overhaul in its life.

Let's turn to cost benefits. J-10 B or and C variants are projected at 55-65 million US dollars per aircraft. Cost of MLU if all the options are availed is just under $22 million (Pakistan bought 60 MLU packages at $1.3b). A used F-16 can be had at as little as $15m (block 15-25 versions). That puts total cost under $40m for an MLU F-16 which is good to go for 5000 hrs without any overhaul against a $55m new J-10 good for same 5000 hrs (at best) but with multiple overhauls. Granted MLU cost doesn't include AESA upgrade but if one replaces APG-68 V9 with APG-83 would this single item increase cost by more than $10m? Perhaps but still it will remain cheaper than J-10. Engine is yet another item which saves costs of running. F-100 PW229 of F-16 has 6000 cycle inspection (10-14 yrs of operation) which is far far superior to AL-31F's meagre 1000 hrs MTBO and a total life of mere 3000 hrs. Data on WS-10 is not available but it is generally believed that Chinese engine manufacturing lags behind that of Russians. Let's assume same maintenance penality, F-100 PW229 is six time more maintenance friendly and lasts twice as long.

Given all this, J-10B/ C, IMO would face a fierce competition by MLU'ed F-16s in export markets where F-16s are not politically barred. Contrary to common belief, US aircraft are easier on the pocket in the long run though upfront costs may be higher. In case of MLU, even initial costs are lower. Decision will however differ from case to case basis. As I see it, flooding of market with F-16s will open many choices to different nations.

A good read but Question remains who are the privelleged ones to get there hands on F16 as it comes with too much of noise where as Chinese option for many are quite and workable .But really interesting analysis