F-16 Ready for the Future

[Imran Khan]

piolat is ready

but we dont need pilots we need cleaners for F-16s eheheheheh on

 

[desiman]

For all the fanboys the main reason Britain did not buy the F-16 was a huge production spat with Lockhead back in the 80's. Britain was searching for a new jet and the F-16 was gaining prominence in the market. Lockhead offered the jet to the British but most of the production would have been done outside Britain. Producing any major parts inside Britain would have increased the base price and that was also not agreeable to the British.The British stressed on production on home soil mainly under public pressure because of the ongoing recession and a call for using British made equipment. There would also be certain delivery limitations and high parts replacement cost when producing parts outside the home country which Britain did not like. Add to that the negativity towards the United States during the Regan and Nixon era's and you have perfect mix for Britain to not buy from its historical partner. When the signs for the European union were already emerging in the late 80 and early 90's Britain thought it was much better to indulge in research to produce its own jets rather than buying from American companies. Therefore the Typhoon was born which is one of the best jets around. Britain also had close ties with defense contractors from France and Germany at that time which also worked against any American firm's trying to get a slice of the pie.

 

[kingdurgaking]

And on what basis did you reach this conclusion, its absolutely absurd. F16 might be a design from the 70's but it has continued to evolve throughout the years, same can be said about the F15 and F18.

The Desert Falcon in its current configurations can take on any jet one on one; whether its Rafale, EF, SU30MKI/SU35. If the F16's would have been outdated, the Turks or the Israelis would have never invested money into it, its just wishful thinking that the F16s have lived their lives. The USAF is replacing them because they have a budget of $700 billion, which other country has a defence budget that big.

I don't know which future multi role fighter aircrafts you are talking about because the F16 is a proven multi role fighter aircraft which is extremely cost effective. Its avionics, weapons, radar and electronic warfare suites are without the best in the world and in some cases better than those of EF and Rafale. The partners of EF are reducing their orders and Rafale has yet to find a single buyer, tells me how successful they are

Logically if you feel F16 just by updating it can stand against any modern aircraft like Rafael or EF you are very wrong... F16 was upgraded to make it competitive not to outclass the new platforms.. how ever gizmos you add Rafael or EF had been designed from day one to outclass the current fleet by design .. Especially EF has capability to fight against F22 though it cant outclass F22.. similarly if you take new Su's they are build to defeat older US built fighters including the Growlers... while Su35 can fight against JSF but it cant outclass it... According to your logic if Upgrading is sufficient there wont be new Fighters even in US inventory... US has gizmos which adds competitive edge but there adversaries have developed the capabilities to defeat it.. thats why US has moved to a new generation of fighters altogether..
Secondly if you feel just ordering makes it successful you are very wrong.. For instant JSF orders are being reduced across the partners... Rafael and EF doesnt have huge base doesnt necessarily means they are bad.. The clients of Rafael and EF or Su's have requesting for customized version according to there needs so is the delay/extra cost which is a logical requisite .. While US doesnt encourage so .. you have to take the available package home.. thats it....

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Any independent country that values its independece normally produces all items LOCALLY and that is why Britain never opted for a plane made overseas

WW2 , was was not won on basis of how many weapons/planes
ppl had at start of war , it was infact won , by how much weapons you can produce "during war"

Major emphasis was on trade routes on sea as well to restrict each other's supply routes.

US had a major advantage due to its rail road systems , during that time period so vast amount of goods travelled across US at faster rate then other places in world so they were able to MASS produce anything .. and just over muscle opponents

US produced most amount of jeeps /tanks/plnes due to their industrial power so they won the war ...

Britain normally has produced all its weapons locally cannons, ships etc it also has history of backstabbing .... so even it was us ally it knows it can't trust its old ally

At present they are just mass producing ships , becasue they are awaiting chance to expand their borders again to their past glory days ...

They tag along with US becasue its the need of he time , but Britian and its ellite have always recognized themselves as british and not Ameircans

 

[raazh]

Aircraft specifications should always be judged according to user requirements.

If the operator has aim to maintain domination on all the continents of the world and has the financial and technical muscle to support all related operations then yes F22 should be your choice.

On the other hand if your priority requirement is to aggresively protect your own territory and then maybe do some offensive operations just across the border; their is no better option then the F16. F16 is multirole and I would say advanced enough for most of the missions, high sorty rate with RLU's and has the most extensive supply chain network then any thing compared. Couple this with the factor of Pakistan; a country which face up and down relations with the OEM on regular basis this legend is a blessing in disguise.

Please also keep in mind that wars are not fought with 1 aircraft vs the other. Its a battle of most efficient utilisation of all your resources. If you are fighting this battle in your own territory than you will have the upper advantage with more resources on hand. So I am saying that F22 will not be up against F16. It will be against AWACS + whole Ground Support Network + multiple F16's.

We got a perfect example of this during the recent Mumbai drama .. with all the huffs and puffs of Su30, Mig29, Mirage2000's etc .. all Pak did was to make sure few of its units are always doing a patrol with all the rest of the support ready for action. Did anyone hear about any crossings? No !

 

[krash]

The clients of Rafael and EF or Su's have requesting for customized version according to there needs so is the delay/extra cost which is a logical requisite .. While US doesnt encourage so .. you have to take the available package home.. thats it....

i believe the US does offer "customization" as was seen in the early and the recently bought Pakistani and israeli F-16s...but plz correct me if im wrong.

and could you please tell or give a link as to who these clients are who have ordered the Rafael and what customizations have they requested?

Logically if you feel F16 just by updating it can stand against any modern aircraft like Rafael or EF you are very wrong...

doesnt "can fight against" equate to "can stand against" or "be competitive", as you put it, rather than "outclass the other"???

similarly if you take new Su's they are build to defeat older US built fighters including the Growlers

and i know i might be severely mistaken here but aren't the Su-30/35s based on the same design,as you put it, as the Su-27s were? like the newer block F-16 design is based on the older blocks? or is the Su-30s design completely different from the Su-27?

much appreciated

 

[rockstarIN]

I think F-16 has been upgraded to its maximum, AESA Radars+new weapon systems Less RCS etc etc..

To move to the next generation, (5th), which considers stealth is the main critieria, you need to amend the design of the aircraft. You can make a 3rd generation design less RCS, but can't considerable stealthy like F-35 and F-22.
May be that is the reason IAF says that F-16 has no future in MMRCA contest.

Thx..

 

[kingdurgaking]

i believe the US does offer "customization" as was seen in the early and the recently bought Pakistani and israeli F-16s...but plz correct me if im wrong.

Only one who have done the customization so far on US product which is Israel and because of the tight bond that exist.. There is no country who does customization because US product itself are more advanced... And US does not encourage and will object if you do so.. they enforce end user to sign EUMA etc etc.. Only Israel has got a concession..

and could you please tell or give a link as to who these clients are who have ordered the Rafael and what customizations have they requested?

For Rafael it is UAE who are doing hard bargaining .. Even IAF will do some customization if euro canards are selected to inject some Israel technologies + some existing weapons in our Inventories.. I doubt US will let us do that...

doesnt "can fight against" equate to "can stand against" or "be competitive", as you put it, rather than "outclass the other"???

F16 can fight.. but lets take a logical example.. When you have got Rafael/EF and F16 in you inventory which one will you send against MKI... Logically Rafael/EF will be the choice because it is more optimized by Air Frame and will have better fighting capabilities.. if not you will send only F16 because of lack of option and Pilot has to take some load apply some tactics etc etc.. Further EF/Rafael are built from day one to outsmart F16/18 , SU's and Migs ...

and i know i might be severely mistaken here but aren't the Su-30/35s based on the same design,as you put it, as the Su-27s were? like the newer block F-16 design is based on the older blocks? or is the Su-30s design completely different from the Su-27?
much appreciated

While MKI belongs to the same Flanker Family.. there is a substancial difference between Su-27 and MKI.. secondly there is a big difference between F-16 A/B and Block 52.. While F-16 has gone through updates from A/B to 52.. MKI is a new design in Air Frames .. Su-27 cannot be updated to MKI or 35BM.. where as F16 A/B can be updated to block 52 in future block 70 also...

 

[Chogy]

Desiman has the right of it.

Britain had produced indigenous (and superb) aircraft since what? 1905? In WW2 they had the beautiful Spitfire and Typhoon, along with heavy bombers.

They wanted to continue, but designs from the 1950's to the 1970's were not spectacular, and the arrival of the F-14, 15, and 16 in the 1970's elevated the game further. The British LOVE aviation, it is almost a rabid obsession, dating to the Battle of Britain, where their Air Force saved their country. It was a matter of pride.

As for the F-16's effectiveness... there was only one airframe we (in the F-15 community) feared, and it wasn't the F-14, F/A-18, Tornado, A-4, F-5,

it was the F-16. General Dynamics scored big with the design. Lockheed made it even better.

 

[Storm Force]

Chogy i notice you only mentioned USA fighters.

 

[WAQAS119]

Chogy i notice you only mentioned USA fighters.

ya! he means infront of Sukhoi30MKI F-16 will be roasted like beef tikka..!!!!

 

[Chogy]

Chogy i notice you only mentioned USA fighters.

That is because those are what we had extensive experience with. We had experience as well with some Soviet equipment, but none of the modern stuff. I've been out of the game too long.

I can speculate, but I'd rather stick with what I know about with such direct statements as I made. The F-16 was our #1 DACT opponent.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Only one who have done the customization so far on US product which is Israel and because of the tight bond that exist.. There is no country who does customization because US product itself are more advanced... And US does not encourage and will object if you do so.. they enforce end user to sign EUMA etc etc.. Only Israel has got a concession..

Indeed Israel is an exception when it comes to America's foreign relations with other countries but the only reason the Israelis customized their own planes was to due to the fact that they wanted to boost their local industry. Whats the point of customizing American planes when American avionics, weapons and radars are the most advanced in the world. Although the F16's Pakistan received in the 80's were equipped with French built ATLIS pod, although it does not makes sense now due to the fact that SNIPER pod is far superior against any of its adversaries. US is not the only country that makes its customers sign an end user agreement, every country makes you sign one because after all they want to protect their technology too.

For Rafael it is UAE who are doing hard bargaining .. Even IAF will do some customization if euro canards are selected to inject some Israel technologies + some existing weapons in our Inventories.. I doubt US will let us do that...

Whats the point of doing customization when the US simply offers the best technology anywhere in the world. American avionics, weapons and radar technology is far ahead than any of their adversaries.

F16 can fight.. but lets take a logical example.. When you have got Rafael/EF and F16 in you inventory which one will you send against MKI... Logically Rafael/EF will be the choice because it is more optimized by Air Frame and will have better fighting capabilities.. if not you will send only F16 because of lack of option and Pilot has to take some load apply some tactics etc etc.. Further EF/Rafael are built from day one to outsmart F16/18 , SU's and Migs ...

What world do you live in friend , Rafael and EF are no 5th Generation solutions. The Raptor was designed from day one to outsmart 4th Generation aircraft, not the EF/Rafael. You cannot take a shot at something you cannot see, and this is exactly the purpose Raptor serves. Now as far as the argument that F16 cannot take on EF or Rafael, thats simply absurd. The French are yet to find a buyer for Rafael and partners for EF are reducing their orders because the price is simply too much. The Americans offer better technology with their F15, F16 and SH at a much lower price.

The Italians flew their leased F16's against their Typhoons and discovered that it could handle it in WVR in lower altitudes, but in medium and higher altitudes EF was superior due to its superior TWR. However, the F16's that the Italians flew were Block 15's and not equipped with JHMCS. Newer Block 52's with JHMCS cued up with AIM9X can easily handle the EF/Rafael in any altitude, reason being AIM9X is the only 5th Generation WVRAAM active and JHMCS is the most potent HMS in the world right now. Also keep in mind that AMRAAM is the most potent BVRAAM in the world, the F16 can fire AIM120D but the only AIM120 integrated with EF is AIM120B. Don't get me wrong but EF is a great fighter, but its a decade late and not an all rounder like the F16 is. The F16 might not be glamorous like the EF is, but it certainly gives you a better bang for the buck and offers you superior technology.

While MKI belongs to the same Flanker Family.. there is a substancial difference between Su-27 and MKI.. secondly there is a big difference between F-16 A/B and Block 52.. While F-16 has gone through updates from A/B to 52.. MKI is a new design in Air Frames .. Su-27 cannot be updated to MKI or 35BM.. where as F16 A/B can be updated to block 52 in future block 70 also...

Again you are quite wrong here too, the size of Block 52's airframe is bigger than that of Block 15. Block 52 has a newer engine with more thrust and the bigger size allows it to have more internal fuel and house CFT's, thus increasing its endurance. Sure you can improve the avionics and radar of Block 15 to the standard of Block 52 but cannot increase its endurance, i am sure the same could be done with SU27's avionics.

 

[kingdurgaking]

US is not the only country that makes its customers sign an end user agreement, every country makes you sign one because after all they want to protect their technology too.

Not sure whether your country has such agreements with every one.. As far our MoD/Armed Forces when EUMA is introduced there was a kind of hesitation whether to sign it or not because no other dealers had such agreement with us... Infact we changed our M2K during Kargil to carry LGB and Nuke.. same goes with our Russian Products.. But we signed the EUMA with a change in clause that US weapons will be verified at a place which is chosen by Indians and not at the operational base...

Whats the point of doing customization when the US simply offers the best technology anywhere in the world. American avionics, weapons and radar technology is far ahead than any of their adversaries.

Yes that is the trade of you are doing.. you are customizing human to that of technology.. where as we customize the technology to human just kidding.. we enforce on customization because of different nature / terrain of our vast land and not all technologies work successfully every where.. We know about our country well and we customize the product according to our needs.. so we trade off here.. some time customized downgraded technology works very well compared to the most advanced high tech ones

What world do you live in friend , Rafael and EF are no 5th Generation solutions. The Raptor was designed from day one to outsmart 4th Generation aircraft, not the EF/Rafael. You cannot take a shot at something you cannot see, and this is exactly the purpose Raptor serves. Now as far as the argument that F16 cannot take on EF or Rafael, thats simply absurd. The French are yet to find a buyer for Rafael and partners for EF are reducing their orders because the price is simply too much. The Americans offer better technology with their F15, F16 and SH at a much lower price.

I never said EF/Rafael are 5th gen.. I just said they are built from day one to outsmart existing fleet at that time like Mig's , Su's and Fteens... F16 can take them but cost will be huge.. which is not the same otherwise

The Italians flew their leased F16's against their Typhoons and discovered that it could handle it in WVR in lower altitudes, but in medium and higher altitudes EF was superior due to its superior TWR. However, the F16's that the Italians flew were Block 15's and not equipped with JHMCS. Newer Block 52's with JHMCS cued up with AIM9X can easily handle the EF/Rafael in any altitude, reason being AIM9X is the only 5th Generation WVRAAM active and JHMCS is the most potent HMS in the world right now. Also keep in mind that AMRAAM is the most potent BVRAAM in the world, the F16 can fire AIM120D but the only AIM120 integrated with EF is AIM120B. Don't get me wrong but EF is a great fighter, but its a decade late and not an all rounder like the F16 is. The F16 might not be glamorous like the EF is, but it certainly gives you a better bang for the buck and offers you superior technology.

I can still argue in lot of area supporting EFT.. EFT had easy kill with F16 when Singapore Airforce evaulated EFT... but they choose F15 because EFT didnt have A2G facility... There are lot of sources and exercise where EFT kicked Mig, Su's F16, F18,F15 with ease.. further they gave a hard run for Raptor too but couldn't dominate them..
So as per your argument If US had thaught like what you had said then there wont be any Raptor.. a simple argument i put forth is US had to ditch them at one point and move to next generation because there adversaries already developed technologies that had countered there Fteens effectively ... because they are very much aware that Fteens will be able to win them war at very huge cost as compared to the next generation fighter..

Again you are quite wrong here too, the size of Block 52's airframe is bigger than that of Block 15. Block 52 has a newer engine with more thrust and the bigger size allows it to have more internal fuel and house CFT's, thus increasing its endurance. Sure you can improve the avionics and radar of Block 15 to the standard of Block 52 but cannot increase its endurance, i am sure the same could be done with SU27's avionics.

The above argument is because you guys have told in this very same forum that your F16 is getting upgraded to block 52 -CFT so the assumption which i can draw is F16 can be upgraded.. I am sorry to say that Su27 cannot be upgraded to MKI standard atleast forget about SU35 BM.... MKI is altogether a different league.. Russia developed Su35 based on MKI not by upgrading Su-27

 

[raazh]

Once I was having a strategic Sales discussion with one OEM supplier. After some ideas exchanged, he got up and said: "My friend, Falcon air frame has no life limit. So dont worry and lets go for lunch now.

Can never forget his words ...