F-16 Block 15MLU/50/52 Fighter

[blain2]

French Mirage 2000-5 with the radar RDY7 has a bigger air-air detection range of 130km when you compare it to the F16 C/D AN/APG-68 (V)9 radar with only 110km.

Both fighters are very good in BVR combat, the MICA and AIM-120s are among the best missiles for the job. Out of the two fighters the F16 has the edge for the strike role and is a better bomber.

F-16 is a better multirole fighter than the M2K. In certain specific flight profiles, the Mirage2000 may be better, but PAF gets a bigger bang for its buck when it invests in true multi-role fighters like the F-16. Dassault may disagree with this, but thus far most of the M2Ks in deployment are actually more optimized for one role or the other. Such is not the case with the F-16.

With Link-16 on the F-16s, the max. radar detection range is not really a big issue especially with the AEW&CS system like the Erieye thrown into the equation.

 

[Kaiser]

The mirage is a pretty decent machine but, the F-16 is better in low-altitude and strike missions. I think that the PAF will use JF-17, F-16 and J-10 all as a multirole fighter platform. Once all 3 are inducted the PAF will have western, european, chinese, and indiginous tech at its deposal

 

[Quwa]

well all the things seems pretty from the point of view of this new agreement but the bad thing is about the news circulating about the use of these F-16s in combat and specially in aerial attacks over an enemy territory. whether pakistan is getting discount or not, whether they are equipped with latest technology or not, the only thing bothering me is the limitation of their use. they are useless for pakistan if they are being accepted with such limitations.

With 5bn USD the PAF would've gone for Mirage 2000-5Mk2s or something else rather than F-16s - if it knew that the Falcons would be useless. There are probably loopholes in the agreement - such as as where DRFM could be acquired, etc; don't worry about it.

 

[Kaiser]

Forget ay 4th generation fighter we should have gone for 50 EF-2000's or Rafales, instead our govt is still obsessed with the F-16 which can be equal to our JF-17 if we make JF-17 alittle better.

If I was president I would have gone for

-50 EF-2000, rafale
-100 J-10
-200 JF-17

This would have been perfect for the PAF

 

[blain2]

Forget ay 4th generation fighter we should have gone for 50 EF-2000's or Rafales, instead our govt is still obsessed with the F-16 which can be equal to our JF-17 if we make JF-17 alittle better.

If I was president I would have gone for

-50 EF-2000, rafale
-100 J-10
-200 JF-17

This would have been perfect for the PAF

Well no offense, but I am glad that you are not the president

The call on the F-16 was made after evaluating all options. The EF-2K and Rafale are just as sanctions-prone as the F-16s have the potential to be.

JF-17 would take another 5-10 years to become as good as the blk 52 F-16 (Chinese simply do not have the technical knowhow at this time to even make the J-10 equal to blk52 so PAF cannot keep on waiting...its a matter of carpe diem for the PAF b/c if we do not buy the blk 52s, we would be eating IAF's dust).

 

[MOO]

No way, if I was the leader of Pakistan I would've gone for 50 or so of some of the latest models of F15's instead. With the performaces equivalent to Singapore's latest model, the F15SG which is superior in air-to-air and air-to ground role. An AESA equipped Eagle could have given IAF and its Flankers a Hell of a battle instead.

F16s and Mirage's are for midget countries, the more heavier multirole strike fighters is what Pakistan should aquire if ever a chance they decided if they have a need to strike deep into India.

But that's just me Haha.

 

[Quwa]

If the PAF had 50 F-15Es - it would have pay close to 1bn USD a year to keep them in the air for 180 hours per pilot. Besides, the F-16s are a fine option for the South Asian equation - I simply do not see why people have problems with what PAF chose after years of research and what not? If the PAF were to get anything in the league of Rafale or EF-2000 - then it will come from China; the only European fighter the PAF may remotely have interest in is Gripen.

 

[blain2]

No way, if I was the leader of Pakistan I would've gone for 50 or so of some of the latest models of F15's instead. With the performaces equivalent to Singapore's latest model, the F15SG which is superior in air-to-air and air-to ground role. An AESA equipped Eagle could have given IAF and its Flankers a Hell of a battle instead.

F16s and Mirage's are for midget countries, the more heavier multirole strike fighters is what Pakistan should aquire if ever a chance they decided if they have a need to strike deep into India.

But that's just me Haha.

Pakistan is not interested in twin-engined aircraft (maint. is very expensive and in case of sanctions, you'd be hurting even more). Pakistan wants the biggest bang for its buck thus a Multi-role aircraft like the F-16 makes better sense than F-15 and its variant. A blk 52 with AEW&CS platform support would also give Flankers hell. PAF needs to focus on the entire systems at its disposal and not just specific components like F-15 or F-16. There is a lot of technology available which renders long range AI radars on the F-15s and Flankers redundant.

 

[Kaiser]

Well for all you monkey F-16 supporters I see how un-educated you people really are

PAKISTAN DECIDES TO DELAY F-16 WITH THE U.S.

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan has decided to delay signing a deal to purchase F-16 aircraft from the US after it found that the planes would be delivered without electronic warfare systems, which are vital for real time monitoring. The F-16 deal is thought to be Pakistan's reward for assisting the US in the war on terror, but relations between the two allies are on a low in recent months.

After the Pakistani Air Force complained that the warfare components were missing, the Ministry of Defense requested the US Secretary of Air Force International Affairs, (SAIFA) to extend the date of purchase till December 31 this year, according to a report in Pakistani weekly Friday Times. Pakistan was thought to be on the verge of signing the letter of acceptance (LOA) for purchase of 36 F-16 fighters, but the deal looks to be in murky waters now.
President Musharraf is expected to speak to his US counterpart George Bush on the matter this week. The deal was delayed because the US decided to impose new conditions. "So the signing deal is off. Perhaps President Musharraf will try to extract some concessions during his meeting with Bush. But the entire deal is likely to spark much more debate and change before finalization," a Pakistani officials told Friday Times.

The report adds that the 36 aircraft, which are a part of the deal, did not have EW capabilities, which would increase the power of Pakistan's radar warning receiver (RWR).

Also the aircraft would only be able to identify non-Nato enemies. The Pakistani official said that if any NATO aircraft were involved in the battle it would be tough to detect them.
Relations between the US and Pakistan have soured recently, because the US thinks Pakistan is not doing enough to hunt down Osama bin Laden. Pakistan maintains that it is helping the US in every way it can.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/8924.html

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1054546

There will be more news on this in the next couple of hours

Well no offense, but I am glad that you are not the president

The call on the F-16 was made after evaluating all options. The EF-2K and Rafale are just as sanctions-prone as the F-16s have the potential to be.

JF-17 would take another 5-10 years to become as good as the blk 52 F-16 (Chinese simply do not have the technical knowhow at this time to even make the J-10 equal to blk52 so PAF cannot keep on waiting...its a matter of carpe diem for the PAF b/c if we do not buy the blk 52s, we would be eating IAF's dust).

In 5-10 Year China will have already finished developement of the J-10C which is expected to be on par with the latest fighters in the world at that time. If US has sanctioned us 3 times dont you think they would do It again? Right know the terms that US says pakistan has to agree to, to buy the F-16's are

-US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft
-F-16 will not come with EW systems
-F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)
-F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway
- US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes

And there are many more

 

[A.Rahman]

US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes

how can they do that ?!

 

[Neo]

I'm curious if there's one single idiot in the Pentagon or the Congress who actually believes that we'll be buying F-16's under these conditions.

Its just another PR stunt, F-16's will come with the systems we've asked for or the deal is No Go!

 

[Zeeshan S.]

I dont think that we will have these kind of things in the F-16s that we will purchase.

-US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft
-F-16 will not come with EW systems
-F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)
-F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway
- US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes

But i am sure that we will not be getting anything that will be a dangerous to use back against them. Its obvious and makes sense. If you put Pakistan in U.S shoes you will probably agree that U.S is doing right. Everyone looks for their interests, but now why buy something that has no potential for future, and has no more rooms for upgrades?

Instead we should just buy some more squadrons of J-10 aircrafts, and setup a good infrastructure of it, which would enable us to build spare parts for J-10, and most of its technology. J-10C is actually Super J-10 and i bet it is not that bad.

Thurst rate of J-10C would be 1.19:1 thats highest it could get.



This means it is possible that J-10C would have a super cruise ability.

China working on 'Super-10' advanced fighter

By Henry Ivanov JDW Correspondent
Moscow

China is developing an advanced version of the Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC) J-10 multirole fighter aircraft, referred to as the Super-10, with a more powerful engine, thrust-vector control, stronger airframe and passive phased-array radar, according to Russian sources.

Russian Aircraft Corporation MiG (RSK-MiG) specialists, contracted to provide technical assistance to Chinese design houses, said the enhancement to the J-10 airframe is a logical step, since the fighter was initially intended to have the compact Pratt&Whitney PW1120 engine that powered the Israeli Lavi aircraft, which served as a basis for the J-10.

However, the imposition of US export restrictions forced the decision to install the 20 per cent heavier Russian AL-31FN engine, which requires a larger intake as it needs 40 per cent more air flow.

In late 2005 China placed a USD300 million order for a second batch of AL-31FN engines; these are a derivative of the Su-27's AL-31F for single-engine aircraft, with a lower positioning of the gearbox. At first, it was believed the contract was for the same engines as in the first batch of 54 units supplied in 2001-02 and installed into development prototypes and initial production J-10s. However, AL-31FN-maker Moscow Machine Production Plant (MMPP) Salyut in December 2005 revealed the order to be for the AL-31FN M1, which is claimed to be a new AL-31FN production standard.

The company's general manager, Yuri Eliseyev, said the new engine was purposely developed for what he referred to as the "Chinese Super-10 fighter". Four such engines have been seen assembled at MMPP Salyut's Moscow production site. One of these has been demonstrated undergoing fire testing, during which its swivel nozzle was deflected up/down and sideways at full power and reheated thrust.

http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw060109_2_n.shtml

 

[Quwa]

Well for all you monkey F-16 supporters I see how un-educated you people really are

PAKISTAN DECIDES TO DELAY F-16 WITH THE U.S.



http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/8924.html

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1054546

There will be more news on this in the next couple of hours

Dude, trust me - blain2 and me are the last people you would want to call "monkies"; the one us alone alone has contributed 10,000 posts on three different forums. And please, do NOT get me started on pie throwing - because a lot of people here KNOW that if I wanted to; I could throw a pie filled with shaving cream and after shave a long - LONG way.

Your news sources range from greenie/hippie/druggie sites to Indian news; would you trust ANYONE of them to report on a conservative Pakistani government? Use your common sence Yoda.

In 5-10 Year China will have already finished developement of the J-10C which is expected to be on par with the latest fighters in the world at that time. If US has sanctioned us 3 times dont you think they would do It again? Right know the terms that US says pakistan has to agree to, to buy the F-16's are

In five to ten years eh? Well sure the Chinese can come up with good stuff by then; but even so, the ECM/EW systems, ammunition, etc, would still not be as good as American or European. The Chinese still need - quite simply - more time, money and effort; not to mention the fact that it will take another 10-15 years IN ADDITION to the 5-10 development years for them to equip their forces!

-US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft
-F-16 will not come with EW systems
-F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)
-F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway
- US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes

1) The reason why the U.S is sending personnel to Pakistan is because the PAF NEEDS them in order to INTEGRATE the F-16s into its forces. In the 1950s and 1960s the PAF needed American personnels to ease the induction processes of the F-86, B-57 and F-104. In the 1980s the PAF needed Americans to help ease the induction of the F-16A/Bs; and it will need the Americans for the current F-16s. Its standard procedure for ALL countries who deal with the Americans - Pakistan is not being singled out for God's sake. The PAF needs American personnel for training and what not; standard procedure, of course i-brothers (idiots and Indians) will always need to blow things out of proportion.

2) What the hell would INDIA be doing with NATO IFF codes? WHO do you think implants these IFF codes onto fighters; IFF codes are what Air Forces use to distinguish between friend and foe. It would be the PAF which implants the IFF codes; and the F-16 is a NATO FIGHTER. As for the IAF's Mirage 2000 - well they are 20 years old and have no relation to their French NATO counterparts . BTW, how do you think the Turks and Greek use their F-16s and Mirage 2000s to lock onto themselves? What about the Saudis, UAE, Israel, etc, etc, etc?

3) I do not think one will need to UPGRADE the F-16C/D Block 52+ (+ stands for PLUS btw) in any way since it has already reached its best form!

- US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes

...and that will stop Pakistan from shipping/sending F-16 technology to China how????

There probably are many - MANY more ridiculous statements to be made by the I-brothers; but fact remains that - the F-16s are today the PAF's best option. The models the PAF is getting are the latest available with regards to the PAF's finance range; the weapons PAF is getting for them are among the best in the world - AIM-120C5, JDAM, etc. And as of recent news - the Pakistani gov't is pushing for two new things in this F-16 deal; 1) a heavy - HEAVY discount, 2) DRFM - which will make our F-16s theoretically invinsible to enemy ECM/EW systems.

 

[Neo]

Well for all you monkey F-16 supporters I see how un-educated you people really are

Kaiser,

Kill the message, not the messenger!
Please avoid name calling or personal insult.
Thanks!

http://www.pakistaniforces.com/forums/announcement.php?f=20

 

[blain2]

Well for all you monkey F-16 supporters I see how un-educated you people really are

PAKISTAN DECIDES TO DELAY F-16 WITH THE U.S.



http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/8924.html

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1054546

There will be more news on this in the next couple of hours



In 5-10 Year China will have already finished developement of the J-10C which is expected to be on par with the latest fighters in the world at that time. If US has sanctioned us 3 times dont you think they would do It again? Right know the terms that US says pakistan has to agree to, to buy the F-16's are

-US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft
-F-16 will not come with EW systems
-F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)
-F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway
- US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes

And there are many more

Kaiser,

Please refrain from using incorrect recyled trash about the F-16s.

US personals would be on PAF bases at all time to make sure PAF doesnt meddle witht he aircraft.

What do you think we did when we acquired F-104s, F-86s, Mirages, F-6s, F-7s and F-16s? Do you think the respective countries did not place their personnel on the PAF bases? PAF has had blk 15s for 23 years now, going by that rate, do you think USAF personnel will stay in Pakistan until 2040 to babysit the blk52s? I could drop a lot of history on you about the way Pakistani armed forces deal with foreign military personnel involved in oversight, but I will skip it to keep things brief.

F-16 will not come with EW systems

What do you think these ALQ-184, 187 and 178 pods on the F-16s are for? They must be for typing up emails News flash!, our 23 year old F-16 blk 15s have ALQ-131 electronic warfare pods which were the most modern ones deployed in south Asia until the mid 90s.

F-16's will not be able to detect NATO fighters (seems suspicious doesnt it)

So do you think that with our current threat library, PAF F-16s were unable to see any of the other NATO aircraft during Anatolean Eagle exercises against the USAF, TuAF, ADA, & Italian AF? I guess had that been the case, we would have preferred to stay in Pakistan.... ...Man these things are laughable....US provided us appropriate threat libraries 23 years ago, but suddenly they think that new F-16 blk52s should not be able to detect a piece of **** (already being phased out by ADA) Mirage 2000. Give me a break!!!

F-16's are not to be customized or upgraded in anyway

Ok np! What do you need to customize and upgrade?? The package being acquired ensures that the aircraft stay current for the next decade at least. Big whoop they wont provide us wiring for free-fall atomic bombs, but who cares? We have more than enough capability built into the existing F-16s, even Mirages and then the BM program where we could care less.

US will install special system to turn off F-16 radar and systems at anytime it wishes

Let me know when this technology becomes available....maybe connect a modem to the F-16s and have it transmit the system off at 9.6 baud rate...