Elected governments failed Pakistan: Musharraf

[VCheng]

First of all, my compliments on a great reply. I look forward to our discussion.

Not at all I agree that Musharraf was a dictator, may we have more like him because Pakistan did really well during his term.

We both agree on his being a dictator, but your stance that somehow dictatorshiop was the reason that Pakistan did "really well" cannot be justified. This is simply another form of "the ends justify the means".

I believe that the armed forces of ANY country MUST remain subservient to civilian control at ALL times. The brass have used the failure (and indeed encourage such failures) of civilian leaders to shoulder their responsbilities to perpetuate their hold on power.

The short term economic gains that may have happened during Musharraf's reign are more than offset by the damages caused by the long term corrosive nature of destruction of the political processes and institutions that are an inevitable result of dictatorships.

So while I respect your wish that may Pakistan have more like him, I will tell you that creating crises and then riding in with the cavalry to act as saviors is a trick the military have used time and again to the long term detriment of Pakistan.

During Musharraf's time, to my thinking, society was freer than it is today, certainly free media is also a legacy of the Musharraf period and his economic achievements are Asian Bank and world Bank certified

And yet these have to be weighed against ill-advised adventures in Kargil and Afghanistan, and the disastrous confrontation with the judiciary borne of the necessity to keep extra-judicial killings and kidnappings from widespread public scrutiny.

I take it that "Dictator" is bad as far as you are concerned? Tell me, should we not evaluate him by his achievements for Pakistan, instead of a loaded political term?? I mean, is someone who is "elected" but fails to deliver, somehow "better" than someone is not "elected" but does deliver?? Isn't the usefulness, the value, the merit, of, say, a tool in it's usefulness as a tool? Or does giving a brand one to a tool somehow make it superior and useful?

"What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet"

but by the same token, the stench of putrefying fish is just as horrible, despite any potential uses in keeping a comatose nation barely awake, whether we can call it a fragrance or not!

Lets not get carried away and make predictions (it's just very early to make reasonable statements about such a distant eventuality) , since we respect the assertion that your opinions are not formed lightly or blindly, and we are proud of you for that.

Thank you for respecting my opinions as well, but the fact that Musharraf has already formed a political party and is making the preliminary moves to regain power, is an indication of his mindset, and thus worthy of condemnation, regardless of whether he eventually he succeeds or not.

If he does succeed, it is by defintion already too late. The time to stop this evil from re-blossoming is NOW, not later.

 

[muse]

but your stance that somehow dictatorshiop was the reason that Pakistan did "really well" cannot be justified.

That is a misrepresentation - the reason Pakistan did really well was that Musharraf was keen to ensure that it did - in fact, Musharraf regime was trusted by investors around the world - why? Because it saw him as sincere -- can you claim the same for the democratically elected Zardari or Gilani ??

End justifying the means -- In this instance, I will cop to that - because it's true.

I think the real problem of Pakistan is political instability - it has been the problem in Pakistan since the assassination of the Shaheed e Millat -- and I think that this problem is represented in the Westminster on the Indus and the constitution - see, like so many other Pakistanis, I think real Democracy is Local government and accountability.

So are the Patriotic armed forces the problem? I'm persuaded that they are not, they may not be the solution, but instances of military government in Pakistan are entirely the result of politicians refusing to agree to the rules of the game.

kargil -- Nawaz

Afghanistan - Bhutto, Zia, Bhutto, Nawaz. Mr. Musharraf's take on Afghanistan has been in keeping with Pakistan's existential imperative to ensure that a hostile regime does not occupy Kabul - some may disagree, but it is what it is.

 

[VCheng]

End justifying the means -- In this instance, I will cop to that - because it's true.

Well, I will grant you the cop out and let this one rest.

I think the real problem of Pakistan is political instability - it has been the problem in Pakistan since the assassination of the Shaheed e Millat -- and I think that this problem is represented in the Westminster on the Indus and the constitution - see, like so many other Pakistanis, I think real Democracy is Local government and accountability.

I agree with you 100% here.

So are the Patriotic armed forces the problem? I'm persuaded that they are not, they may not be the solution, but instances of military government in Pakistan are entirely the result of politicians refusing to agree to the rules of the game.

The armed forces are the problem only when they violate the sacrosanct rule of being subservient to civilian authority, but not otherwise. They have developed a habit of encouraging or even engineering political crises as an excuse to grab power. Now, the armed forces are involved in multiple commercial ventures in addition to their primary role, and in time, this will consume both the armed forces and the civilian enterprises they compete against.

kargil -- Nawaz

You lost me here. Please clairfy this comment.

Afghanistan - Bhutto, Zia, Bhutto, Nawaz. Mr. Musharraf's take on Afghanistan has been in keeping with Pakistan's existential imperative to ensure that a hostile regime does not occupy Kabul - some may disagree, but it is what it is.

Pakistan's existential threat has been developing from within steadily over the last three decades, with social injustice, lack of economic development and religious extremism.

Musharraf is as guilty as everybody else in ignoring the proverbial 800 pounds gorillas at home while concentrating on the little monkeys outside the gates (no pun intended).

 

[roach]

Pardon me for interrupting this excellent debate, but I just had to butt in.

Musharraf is the "Known devil". He has been proven in the political arena, and as an administrator. If he comes back to power, it will be as an elected representative and not a dictator. That changes things (for the better), and as things stand now-I don't see any other figure in the political landscape who is an able leader, NOT CORRUPT, and a genuine patriot.

IMO Pakistan does not have the luxury of experimenting with leaders any more. Paani naak tak pahunch chuka hai.

My 2 cents, carry on please.

 

[Rafi]

Pardon me for interrupting this excellent debate, but I just had to butt in.

Musharraf is the "Known devil". He has been proven in the political arena, and as an administrator. If he comes back to power, it will be as an elected representative and not a dictator. That changes things (for the better), and as things stand now-I don't see any other figure in the political landscape who is an able leader, NOT CORRUPT, and a genuine patriot.

IMO Pakistan does not have the luxury of experimenting with leaders any more.

My 2 cents, carry on please.

You could say the same, in india when you allowed a mass murderer carry on as chief minister of gujarat The world is less and less forgiving of excesses.

 

[BATMAN]

Musharraf was a dictator, and his recent moves to position himself to retake power, will be an unmitigated disaster for Pakistan, just like his previous regime.

Please stop misguiding people on purpose and discuss facts.... I hope you know what facts are and i'm sure even if you make 1million posts FACTS will be illusive.

FACT:

P.Musharraf was an elected President, in much more democratic fashion, than any one else could have him ever elected in this world's past and future democratic history.
He was elected from the house and nation wide referendum endorsed his election a classic example

ACCEPT IT OR PROVE IT WRONG?

Well....I think election process is enough for people like you to accept any ruler democratic or not!
By your rules, I won the argument by miles.... even before it started.

LOCAL BODIES GOVT. was democracy delivered in true terms.
Do you know what it means?
It meant not only limiting authority of ministers and granting it over to union councils, infect ministers and civil servants were made answer able to union councils.
All public affairs and services being delivered to people on their door step.
For the first time in world's history.... in true terms people became share holders in govt. irrespective of their political affiliations or position.

If you were a Pakistani you would have experienced it.
I can share my personal emails upon which govt. secretary directed to respective state dpt. to serve me a document at my door.
Govt. of Pakistan delivered me my required document via union council to my house in my absence.

Can you dream this service...any where or where ever you belong.

How can a present unaccountable govt. be democratic?
How can present corrupt govt. be a govt. for the people?
Using authority to free criminals and re-instating a corrupt chief justice in a deal is any thing but democracy.

Musharraf's rule was a golden era of Pakistan, having no example in history of world.
No ruler of past and future can match performance of Musharraf govt. even in one single sector and the list is long.

 

[BATMAN]

subservient to civilian authority

Zardari and Sharif are no authority and if by exploiting our flawed system of election they become rulers than army must take over...... following the objective which they have been entrusted upon by the SOP i.e. to keep enemies of Pakistan out.

Pak army is nightmare for anti state elements, while President or P.M. have many other dpts. to look into. e.g. ministry of finance, interior ministry.... why only army?
No President can violate the rules and dictate army, he has to issue directives via ministry of defence and if orders are not complied than compalin Iftikhar ch. that orderes are not implemented.

I hate when some self enlightened people think getting elected in unfair way as president is democracy.

Present assembly of Pakistan which elected democratic President is invalid on accounts of fake degrees, hence the democratic president too and all of his executive orders.

If you say P.Musharraf was authoritative yes he was.. it has been proven that words from his mouth supersedes constitution of Pakistan and all politicians and civil administration, incl. iftikhar ch. endorse what he ever said.

I respect your opinion, no matter how misguided it might be, and I will keep quiet in this thread for now, as requested by Muse above.

You have started trolling with words like misguided.
My post did not insulted any one... i wonder why do you have to go through unbearable pain in leave it uncommented.
I respect you respect Muse but it does not impress me.

 

[VCheng]

I stand by my statements.

Musharraf's rule was a golden era of Pakistan, having no example in history of world.
No ruler of past and future can match performance of Musharraf govt. even in one single sector and the list is long.

I am speechless at the sycophancy of these statements!

However, the truly dangerous statement that you just added is this:

it has been proven that words from his mouth supersedes constitution of Pakistan

NOBODY should be above the Constitution. Such arrogance is the bane of Pakistani politics, and blatant sycophancy like that being shown here only perpetuates it to the detriment of the whole nation.

 

[BATMAN]

I stand by my statements.
I am speechless at the sycophancy of these statements!

So you did not deny that no President in the world's histroy was as democratically elected as P.Musharraf.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\11\15\story_15-11-2010_pg7_20

However, the truly dangerous statement that you just added is this

NOBODY should be above the Constitution. Such arrogance is the bane of Pakistani politics, and blatant sycophancy like that being shown here only perpetuates it to the detriment of the whole nation.

It is called personality... people just give in to you by the spell of your personality.
Does petrol choor Iftikhar ch. have balls to take away immunity from Zardari and Sharif.... which P.Musharraf! granted although it is not binding to people to honor his words beyond the law.. which says NRO expired automatically, when P.Musharraf resigned.

Democracy holds no value in the face of giants like his excellency P.Musharraf.

 

[VCheng]

It is called personality... people just give in to your by the spell of your personality.
Does petrol choor Iftikhar ch. have balls to take away immunity from Zardari and Sharif.... which P.Musharraf! granted although it is not binding to people to honor his words beyond the law.. which says NRO expired automatically, when P.Musharraf resigned.

Democracy holds no value in the face of giants like his P.Musharraf.

Blind cult worship of ANY leader is NEVER a good idea. The whole Pakistani nation needs to open their eyes before it is too late.

 

[BATMAN]

Blind cult worship of ANY leader is NEVER a good idea. The whole Pakistani nation needs to open their eyes before it is too late.

And you think he TTP will do more attacks if he assume power or sugar will be sold more expensive or energy shortage will get worse?

Can you help us?

 

[VCheng]

Can you help us?

No sir, you appear to be beyond redemption, but I am still hopeful about the nation as a whole.

 

[BATMAN]

No sir, you appear to be beyond redemption, but I am still hopeful about the nation as a whole.

I never said help me!

I said help us... THE NATION, whom you warned that Musharraf's rule will be worst than Zardari and Sharif.

 

[VCheng]

I never said help me!

I said help us... THE NATION, whom you warned that Musharraf's rule will be worst than Zardari and Sharif.

LOL! I was just being facetious there.

Seriously though, it is not my job anymore to help the Pakistani nation. My family and I have done enough already, much of it futile. I have now sworn allegiance to my new home, and all my loyalties lie here now, because this is where my future lies.

However, I would certainly aid initiatives that COME FROM WITHIN PAKISTAN as much as I can.

Why do you continue to wait for help and succor to arrive from abroad? You are the best people to deal with your problems.

 

[BATMAN]

Again trolling.

I asked for your valuable suggestions... since you declared supporting Musharraf disastrous.

No need to take the discussion to different level.

I don't even know if you are Pakistani, you sound more from across the border rather than an American or Pakistani.

And yes if you can't contribute in positive way than refrain from issuing confusing prophecies.

You know Indian always have evidence before crime but it does not help them to prove any thing.