Egyptian Army Chief of Staff Mohamed Sobhi Coming to See T-129 Attack Helo

[T-123456]

Already tried and failed.

Did they have the Attack configuration then?

 

[revojam]

Did they have the Attack configuration then?

In 90s different types of utility helis(Blackhawk , UH-90 or Eurocopter) tried as multi-role by putting some armanents on them results were complete failures after that Army decided only stick with real atack helis (supercobra) and never again tried this multi-role heli idea.At max Army will put external fuel tanks on T-70 but thats it.

 

[LegionnairE]

AFAIK, the T-129 was designed with the geographic properties of Turkey in mind - hot and high*. One might think that Egypt isn't mountainous but some parts - especially the Sinai Peninsula - has an altitude (topologically speaking) of 2,629 m

Bro it's hot but not high considering it's 2629 meters from sea level I wouldn't compare it with Turkish Army's fighting environment.
@mahatir
Turkey got sanctioned after Cyprus liberation campaign too, It doesn't mean much if you look at our inventory you'll see how professionally each type of equipment is chosen. US offered Turkey Apaches and A10s at least twice I can remember, Turkey wouldn't take them even if given free. in AH64's case maintenance costs triple the procurement costs eventhough they are old our Cobras are functioning better than Greek AH64 fleet and they have much higher combat readiness levels.

What I'm trying to say is, multiplying suppliers sucks azz. Turkey responded to sanctions in 1974 by building companies like Aselsan. Abrams sucks too, so does Chinese aircraft I wish Egypt good luck with those.
@T-123456 and @revojam
you guys should check out the Yarasa configuration

 

[Frogman]

US offered Turkey Apaches and A10s at least twice I can remember, Turkey wouldn't take them even if given free. in AH64's case maintenance costs triple the procurement costs eventhough they are old our Cobras are functioning better than Greek AH64 fleet and they have much higher combat readiness levels.

Egypt and Turkey are two completely different environments and both face different enemies and so where the Apache may have not been the best option for Turkey it certainly was for Egypt as its neighbour has a sophisticated MBT in the Merkava while Turkey does not. I havent heard anything about the maintenance cost of the Apache being triple that of its procurement and that sounds absurd to me TBH. The combat readiness of one nation operating the Apache certainly doesn't correlate with another having the same combat readiness. Greece is going through economic meltdown as is Egypt to an extent but the Egyptian armed forces aren't directly reliant on state funding at all.

What I'm trying to say is, multiplying suppliers sucks azz.

Then why does every nation on earth have multiple arms suppliers?

Turkey responded to sanctions in 1974 by building companies like Aselsan. Abrams sucks too, so does Chinese aircraft I wish Egypt good luck with those.

And Egypt responded with the moderately successful AIO. The Abrams is the most successful MBT of its generation and one of the only ones with true combat experience simply stating it sucks without proof or explanation is suspect. The JF-17 (if we go for it) would be acquired to fulfill the needs of the EAF. The EAF requires a economical yet capable multi role fighter to replace its obsolete fighters (plus you're underestimating Chinese tech).

 

[mahatir]

Egypt and Turkey are two completely different environments and both face different enemies and so where the Apache may have not been the best option for Turkey it certainly was for Egypt as its neighbour has a sophisticated MBT in the Merkava while Turkey does not. I havent heard anything about the maintenance cost of the Apache being triple that of its procurement and that sounds absurd to me TBH. The combat readiness of one nation operating the Apache certainly doesn't correlate with another having the same combat readiness. Greece is going through economic meltdown as is Egypt to an extent but the Egyptian armed forces aren't directly reliant on state funding at all.

Then why does every nation on earth have multiple arms suppliers?

And Egypt responded with the moderately successful AIO. The Abrams is the most successful MBT of its generation and one of the only ones with true combat experience simply stating it sucks without proof or explanation is suspect. The JF-17 (if we go for it) would be acquired to fulfill the needs of the EAF. The EAF requires a economical yet capable multi role fighter to replace its obsolete fighters (plus you're underestimating Chinese tech).

I would dought Egypt ability to use F-16 and Apache against Israel , there planes have source codes in USA hands and you cant use them against Israel .

This is why Egypt needs to stay away from American arms unless you avoid picking on Israel then you have nothing to worry about.

The JF-17 is Just excellent for a country like Egypt , Egypt should induct those JF-17 along with current mirage-2000 and try to over-haul your remaining F-16s , that would be more than enough for a defensive airforce . Now it would be better for Egypt to concentrate more on beefing up its air-defences like going for S-300 etc.

Bro it's hot but not high considering it's 2629 meters from sea level I wouldn't compare it with Turkish Army's fighting environment.
@mahatir
Turkey got sanctioned after Cyprus liberation campaign too, It doesn't mean much if you look at our inventory you'll see how professionally each type of equipment is chosen. US offered Turkey Apaches and A10s at least twice I can remember, Turkey wouldn't take them even if given free. in AH64's case maintenance costs triple the procurement costs eventhough they are old our Cobras are functioning better than Greek AH64 fleet and they have much higher combat readiness levels.

What I'm trying to say is, multiplying suppliers sucks azz. Turkey responded to sanctions in 1974 by building companies like Aselsan. Abrams sucks too, so does Chinese aircraft I wish Egypt good luck with those.
@T-123456 and @revojam
you guys should check out the Yarasa configuration

Egypt does not have turkey's industrial capacity, it remains a poor country while Turkey is already a developed country.

After all the foes Egypt might face mostly some african countries on nile basin for water or proxies supported by Iran at some point but since Hamas abandoned Iran there is not possibility of such scenario .

 

[mahatir]

Bro it's hot but not high considering it's 2629 meters from sea level I wouldn't compare it with Turkish Army's fighting environment.
@mahatir
Turkey got sanctioned after Cyprus liberation campaign too, It doesn't mean much if you look at our inventory you'll see how professionally each type of equipment is chosen. US offered Turkey Apaches and A10s at least twice I can remember, Turkey wouldn't take them even if given free. in AH64's case maintenance costs triple the procurement costs eventhough they are old our Cobras are functioning better than Greek AH64 fleet and they have much higher combat readiness levels.

What I'm trying to say is, multiplying suppliers sucks azz. Turkey responded to sanctions in 1974 by building companies like Aselsan. Abrams sucks too, so does Chinese aircraft I wish Egypt good luck with those.
@T-123456 and @revojam
you guys should check out the Yarasa configuration

Just question will Turkey only use T-70 helicopter as a utility aircraft without any attack version ?
The company has released before an S-70 attack version .

Something else do you know how much T-129 costs an export version

Egypt and Turkey are two completely different environments and both face different enemies and so where the Apache may have not been the best option for Turkey it certainly was for Egypt as its neighbour has a sophisticated MBT in the Merkava while Turkey does not. I havent heard anything about the maintenance cost of the Apache being triple that of its procurement and that sounds absurd to me TBH. The combat readiness of one nation operating the Apache certainly doesn't correlate with another having the same combat readiness. Greece is going through economic meltdown as is Egypt to an extent but the Egyptian armed forces aren't directly reliant on state funding at all.

Then why does every nation on earth have multiple arms suppliers?

And Egypt responded with the moderately successful AIO. The Abrams is the most successful MBT of its generation and one of the only ones with true combat experience simply stating it sucks without proof or explanation is suspect. The JF-17 (if we go for it) would be acquired to fulfill the needs of the EAF. The EAF requires a economical yet capable multi role fighter to replace its obsolete fighters (plus you're underestimating Chinese tech).

ya me3alem el apache ensa enak testa3melha ma3 israel , fe source codes el geesh el masry mesh 3aref yefok shafretha , ya3ny men el a5er hatkoon le3ba markona fel matarat .

 

[Frogman]

I would dought Egypt ability to use F-16 and Apache against Israel , there planes have source codes in USA hands and you cant use them against Israel .

Any talk of source codes and hidden software is pure speculation at best and so there wont be any point discussing it. I would also doubt that the EAF would be stupid enough to acquire aircraft it cant use it just isn't logical.

This is why Egypt needs to stay away from American arms unless you avoid picking on Israel then you have nothing to worry about.

Thing is there isn't a true substitute supplier of arms. We already know that the Russians are unreliable and have pretty much the same policy America does towards Israel so we cannot return as a major customer of their weapons. The Chinese are looking promising and we already have co-production contracts with them for the K-8E and ASN-209 which include TOT and TOPT.


War is unlikely at the moment but I don't doubt that there will be one in the future unless the two state solution (or any solution) goes ahead.

The JF-17 is Just excellent for a country like Egypt , Egypt should induct those JF-17 along with current mirage-2000 and try to over-haul your remaining F-16s , that would be more than enough for a defensive airforce . Now it would be better for Egypt to concentrate more on beefing up its air-defences like going for S-300 etc.

Well there hasn't been any news on negotiations for the JF-17 for a while now so I don't really know whats going on there, maybe a lull before the contract who knows or just waiting for the B-II with a Chinese engine. The EAD is the most potent air defence in the region. Arms deals with the Russians are never publicised for some reason.


Despite the lack of funds the Egyptian Armed Forces remains one of the best in the world. We are like Marines we make do with what we have.

ya me3alem el apache ensa enak testa3melha ma3 israel , fe source codes el geesh el masry mesh 3aref yefok shafretha , ya3ny men el a5er hatkoon le3ba markona fel matarat .

Source ya Basha

 

[cabatli_53]

Any talk of source codes and hidden software is pure speculation at best and so there wont be any point discussing it. I would also doubt that the EAF would be stupid enough to acquire aircraft it cant use it just isn't logical.

Thing is there isn't a true substitute supplier of arms. We already know that the Russians are unreliable and have pretty much the same policy America does towards Israel so we cannot return as a major customer of their weapons. The Chinese are looking promising and we already have co-production contracts with them for the K-8E and ASN-209 which include TOT and TOPT.


War is unlikely at the moment but I don't doubt that there will be one in the future unless the two state solution (or any solution) goes ahead.

Well there hasn't been any news on negotiations for the JF-17 for a while now so I don't really know whats going on there, maybe a lull before the contract who knows or just waiting for the B-II with a Chinese engine. The EAD is the most potent air defence in the region. Arms deals with the Russians are never publicised for some reason.


Despite the lack of funds the Egyptian Armed Forces remains one of the best in the world. We are like Marines we make do with what we have.

Source ya Basha

To make subject more clear,

Turkish industry has been struggling to develop state of art systems, softwares, electronic warfare and mission computers for F-16 and other aerial platforms during long time. Central computers on Egyptian F-16's run with USA software-source codes. IFF system doesn't recognize Israeli fighters as foe so sensors doesn't need to warn pilots at any conditions. You can't change any single electronic parts/integrate any new system, While USA sourcecodes are running onboard. It is certain that Egypt uses USA Electronic warfare systems. EW chaff/Flare/jammer and their sensors are also controlled by a computer which commands munitions to fire in times based on the referances taken from sensors such as MWR, LWR, RWR. Jamming electronic devices with using serious advanced/secret technologies will cause a disaster for foreign airforces which doesn't use domestic systems. You can never know How advanced electronic attack technologies countries use because Each country that reached maturity enough, develop own electronic jammer/attack/support systems and never export them abroad cause of secrecy of systems. Think Turkish industry is working on capturing Tank fire control system to neutralize tanks without firing any single munition (That is just an example). No need to mention huge land phased array based electronic support/attack systems, Airborne Stand off jammer aircraft and Naval electronic attack systems developed until now. Tank FCS systems are quite primitive, when It is compared with a 4-5th generation fighter's electronics, mission computers, so Now, Imagine USA using satellites for electronic attack missions and think Which scenarios qualified brains of USA have developed to neutralize own strategic toys locating on "enemies hands" in wartimes so Development of your own systems is vital, If you want to save your childreen's future. You can never predict What the countries like USA developed in 2020's, While You have already been depending on their 1980's designed 4th generation aircrafts.


National IFF Mod5/S is named as strategic system to be integrated on radars, aircrafts, naval platforms...

F-16 upgraded with "Ozgur" mean "Independant" mission computer running Turkish sourcecodes on it.

Aselsan "Self Protection Electronic Warfare Systems-II" costs hundreds of million $ to develop for Turkish industry.

 

[LegionnairE]

Egypt and Turkey are two completely different environments and both face different enemies and so where the Apache may have not been the best option for Turkey it certainly was for Egypt as its neighbour has a sophisticated MBT in the Merkava while Turkey does not.

Sure?

Then why does every nation on earth have multiple arms suppliers?

I don't know, why would they? I won't make your own argument for you, y'know

The Abrams is the most successful MBT of its generation and one of the only ones with true combat experience simply stating it sucks without proof or explanation is suspect.

Let me tell you why Abrams sucks with another picture. This little thingy kind sir, is a piece of sh.t by definition. Honeywell turbine engine sucks hard so does the tank. Least efficient of MTU diesel engines could kick Honeywell's azz all over the place. I'm simplifying this for you.

plus the Abrams' turret was originally built for 105mm rifled gun, it can barely support Rheinmetall's 120mm L44 gun. I don't believe Americans will ever reach the engineering capabilities of Germans so arabs will remain the sole customer for american POS.

Egypt does not have turkey's industrial capacity, it remains a poor country while Turkey is already a developed country.

It wasn't so back in 1970s.

Just question will Turkey only use T-70 helicopter as a utility aircraft without any attack version ?
The company has released before an S-70 attack version.

First of all, T70 will fly with Aselsan's avionics so we have the capabilities to intoduce whatever weapons we want. We have our own ATGMs and 70mm laser guided rockets that can do the job. It's only a matter of decision making. But I doubt if that decision will ever be made.

A Yarasa-like special forces configuration is way more likely at this point.

 

[Frogman]

Sure?

May have been mistaken but my point still stands the threat of over 1000 Merkava III&IIII is much greater than that of nearly 400 Leopard 2A4&2A6 HAL.

I don't know, why would they? I won't make your own argument for you, y'know

Pwetty please

Let me tell you why Abrams sucks with another picture. This little thingy kind sir, is a piece of sh.t by definition. Honeywell turbine engine sucks hard so does the tank. Least efficient of MTU diesel engines could kick Honeywell's azz all over the place. I'm simplifying this for you.

Please go into more detail as just stating that something sucks without detailing why makes it harder for me too reply with anything constructive. Also the Egyptian army knew well that it was a gas guzzler and if local legend is to be believed Egyptian technicians alleviated the problem a bit and the Americans adopted it.

plus the Abrams' turret was originally built for 105mm rifled gun, it can barely support Rheinmetall's 120mm L44 gun. I don't believe Americans will ever reach the engineering capabilities of Germans so arabs will remain the sole customer for american POS

I'm sorry but the assertion that the Abrams cannot support the M256 120mm gun is preposterous and there's no evidence to back your assertion up. It was initially built for the 105mm yes thats true but with any new weapons system changes were made and it evolved and matured as any weapons system and to think that the Americans would be content with a half arsed design and a canon that cannot be supported is also preposterous. Your last statement is also preposterous (I don't know i just like using this word), the US has surpassed any technical or engineering capabilities the Germans had a long time ago for example in the 1980s Germany was still struggling to produce a viable FCS for the Eurofighter while the Americans were working on the fifth generation fighter the F22.

Central computers on Egyptian F-16's run with USA software-source codes

Since there isnt any (and I mean any) information on the technical side of Egyptian F-16s I would be suspicious but I would personally go with that as true.

IFF system doesn't recognize Israeli fighters as foe so sensors doesn't need to warn pilots at any conditions.

Many people make this claim but no one has ever quoted a reputable source or produced a legal document which proves that Egyptian F-16 IFF systems do not recognise Israeli F-16s as foes or even friends. So I wouldn't agree with this assertion.

You can't change any single electronic parts/integrate any new system, While USA sourcecodes are running onboard. It is certain that Egypt uses USA Electronic warfare systems. EW chaff/Flare/jammer and their sensors are also controlled by a computer which commands munitions to fire in times based on the referances taken from sensors such as MWR, LWR,RWR.

True.

Jamming electronic devices with using serious advanced/secret technologies will cause a disaster for foreign airforces which doesn't use domestic systems. You can never know How advanced electronic attack technologies countries use because Each country that reached maturity enough, develop own electronic jammer/attack/support systems and never export them abroad cause of secrecy of systems.

Yes, but, you are presuming that such technologies exist or are in any way possible. For example if they in fact did exist I doubt Venezuela would still be (struggling due to maintenance and parts I know) operating its F-16s. Iran would also be incapable of using its F-14s as both the F-16 were introduced 4 years apart into US service and one could make the leap that the same tech would be on the Iranian F-14s yet still they fly.

Think Turkish industry is working on capturing Tank fire control system to neutralize tanks without firing any single munition (That is just an example). No need to mention huge land phased array based electronic support/attack systems, Airborne Stand off jammer aircraft and Naval electronic attack systems developed until now.

And good luck in that

Tank FCS systems are quite primitive, when It is compared with a 4-5th generation fighter's electronics, mission computers, so Now, Imagine USA using satellites for electronic attack missions and think Which scenarios qualified brains of USA have developed to neutralize own strategic toys locating on "enemies hands" in wartimes so Development of your own systems is vital, If you want to save your childreen's future. You can never predict What the countries like USA developed in 2020's, While You have already been depending on their 1980's designed 4th generation aircrafts.

I hear you but do not take the fact that we have not created our own systems and software source codes yet to be a sign of an idle military industry or air force. Just as Turkey slowly moved forward towards eventual success Egypt is trying too but the revolution has slowed things down and hopefully (maybe with some brotherly help ) Egypt can go down its own road towards success.

 

[LegionnairE]

May have been mistaken but my point still stands the threat of over 1000 Merkava III&IIII is much greater than that of nearly 400 Leopard 2A4&2A6 HAL.

First of all, Merkava is not on the same level with Leopard 2. It's the (soon-to-become former) best tank of the world. Secondly Greek Leopard2s aren't the only threat we have to counter. I'm not sure if you've looked at map but we have plenty of neighbors to look over.

Pwetty please

Since you've asked nicely, I'll give you my opinion. I think that in most countries politicians get too involved in the procurement of the armed forces. In Turkey the Armed Forces are somewhat more autonomous.

Also the Egyptian army knew well that it was a gas guzzler

It's not just a gas guzzler that eats 3 times more than the least efficient of MTU Diesel engines It's also an IR Christmas tree that emits a crazy amount of heat which is almost impossible to mask. Dude, it sucks.

I'm sorry but the assertion that the Abrams cannot support the M256 120mm gun is preposterous and there's no evidence to back your assertion up. It was initially built for the 105mm yes thats true but with any new weapons system changes were made and it evolved and matured as any weapons system and to think that the Americans would be content with a half arsed design and a canon that cannot be supported is also preposterous. Your last statement is also preposterous (I don't know i just like using this word), the US has surpassed any technical or engineering capabilities the Germans had a long time ago for example in the 1980s Germany was still struggling to produce a viable FCS for the Eurofighter while the Americans were working on the fifth generation fighter the F22.

M256 is the American re-designation for Rheinmetall 120mm L44 tank gun. What I meant was the high-velocity L55 gun...

Also, your example is irrelevant obviously we aren't talking about aircraft technology here, it's totally another discipline that involves aerodynamics and RCS and such. Germans are specialized in land vehicles and submarines.

 

[mahatir]

To make subject more clear,

Turkish industry has been struggling to develop state of art systems, softwares, electronic warfare and mission computers for F-16 and other aerial platforms during long time. Central computers on Egyptian F-16's run with USA software-source codes. IFF system doesn't recognize Israeli fighters as foe so sensors doesn't need to warn pilots at any conditions. You can't change any single electronic parts/integrate any new system, While USA sourcecodes are running onboard. It is certain that Egypt uses USA Electronic warfare systems. EW chaff/Flare/jammer and their sensors are also controlled by a computer which commands munitions to fire in times based on the referances taken from sensors such as MWR, LWR, RWR. Jamming electronic devices with using serious advanced/secret technologies will cause a disaster for foreign airforces which doesn't use domestic systems. You can never know How advanced electronic attack technologies countries use because Each country that reached maturity enough, develop own electronic jammer/attack/support systems and never export them abroad cause of secrecy of systems. Think Turkish industry is working on capturing Tank fire control system to neutralize tanks without firing any single munition (That is just an example). No need to mention huge land phased array based electronic support/attack systems, Airborne Stand off jammer aircraft and Naval electronic attack systems developed until now. Tank FCS systems are quite primitive, when It is compared with a 4-5th generation fighter's electronics, mission computers, so Now, Imagine USA using satellites for electronic attack missions and think Which scenarios qualified brains of USA have developed to neutralize own strategic toys locating on "enemies hands" in wartimes so Development of your own systems is vital, If you want to save your childreen's future. You can never predict What the countries like USA developed in 2020's, While You have already been depending on their 1980's designed 4th generation aircrafts.


National IFF Mod5/S is named as strategic system to be integrated on radars, aircrafts, naval platforms...

F-16 upgraded with "Ozgur" mean "Independant" mission computer running Turkish sourcecodes on it.

Aselsan "Self Protection Electronic Warfare Systems-II" costs hundreds of million $ to develop for Turkish industry.

Some excellent points you made cabatali , especially about source codes on F-16 .

Turkey already has source codes for its F-16 and added many of its own avionics and recently started introducing its own mission computer. Can Turkey help Egypt in overhauling their own F-16s and introducing the Foe or Friend software or not ?

I think Egypt's Army main goal at the end would be eventually over-hauling most of their F-16 parts through help from Turkey .

 

[Zarvan]

Sure they'll buy, for how long they could keep rolling with cold war era AH-64 junk?

I'm being sarcastic this time. Egypt is a flat desert there isn't much room for asymmetric warfare. They could just modernize their AH64 fleet and they would be fine.

What missiles and weapons will be placed on T-129

 

[Oublious]

Abrams

my opinion of the moter only.

Turbine egine are not good for tanks, because turbine engines have no strong torque, they try to compensate for it with high rpm. The alloy what they are using and systems make the tank haevy. And they are not very good with diesel engines, they can build engines but for tanks not. Other wise why the fok are you making engines what are more expensive with purchase and maintenance. I saw a maintance of a abram tanks, to much maintance hour and parts. While piston diesel engines are more easier and cheaper.

So wtf is egypt doing with this crap? Look if you had the money like KSA, than ther is no problem.

 

[LegionnairE]

What missiles and weapons will be placed on T-129

M197 main gun, Cirit 70mm laser-guided rocket, UMTAS ATGM, finally AIM9 sidewinder or Stinger for AA

So wtf is egypt doing with this crap? Look if you had the money like KSA, than ther is no problem.

Finally someone to understand I'm talking about Abrams is a piece of chit.

It'd serve egypt better to strip them off their hulls and use their guns for base defense... hulls can be turned into AA missile carriers