Economic Bullshit

[Indus Pakistan]

To be honest Sir, almost all institutions, except one, have collapsed functionally speaking. Do you disagree?

No. Absolutely NOT. I don't agree. I think by now you know I am not a retard or a sheep that follows the herd. I am rather a maverick by Pakistani standards. I will go against the flow if need be. I don't go with the flow for popularity. But I vehemantly disagree with your assertion. Do I think Pakistan is a developing country with all that it entails? Yes. Do I think Pakistan is any worse than other South Asian countries. No, indeed I think it comes out better then most. In the list of the developing world, Pakistan could do better but it is by no means doing worse than the average.

You made the assertion that institutions have failed - that is a claim. Do please present some hard facts to back up your claim. Failure or not is relative concept. Do not use Norway, Sweden as the benchmark please.

I saw this vlog by a Dutch girl crossing over from Iran into Pakistan. The region of Pakistan she enters, Balochistan is as you know is the 'Wild West' of Pakistan. Just ten miles north you have Afghan border with a full scale war there. The Iran/Pak border is subject to drug gangs, Baloch separatists and has limited infrastructure. Yet here even in the wilds of Pakistan the 'system' is working. Poor policemen on few dollars a day do their duty as best as they can. Through 400 miles of bandit country they escort her. So yes the system may creak, sputter but it works and will keep working. That I have no doubt about.

This lone woman rode all over Pakistan. According to media even a SEAL team would not survive in the country for longer than 24 hours. This is the gap between substance and image you keep bringing up. Image is NOT reality.

 

[VCheng]

Don't worry, we are falling apart soon. Peace

Pakistan has already fallen apart in 1971. Remember that at all? And the same processes are at work still. What are we supposed to think?

You made the assertion that institutions have failed - that is a claim. Do please present some hard facts to back up your claim. Failure or not is relative concept.

Does the justice system work for Pakistanis, as an example? What hard facts would you like, Sir?

 

[A.M.]

Pakistan has already fallen apart in 1971. Remember that at all? And the same processes are at work still. What are we supposed to think?

Chal chor, kafi boongiyan ho gaein aaj kei liye

 

[RescueRanger]

Hope is always good. But appreciating reality is also important, otherwise hope leads only to self-delusion.

Unity. Action. Development. Can we look at the actual evidence to see how much of each of these is substance versus claim?

Hope is not self-delusion, you are constantly looking at things through a pessimistic prism. That is your prerogative. Mine is to stay hopeful, work my part to making my home, city and people around me safer and better! That is all I can do. One step at a time!

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Pakistan has already fallen apart in 1971.

Well if we used your analogy so has Great Britain, France, Russia, Spain etc. Need I remind your neck of woods was part of Britain once. You guys kicked Britain out.

Does the justice system work for Pakistanis, as an example? What hard facts would you like, Sir?

Depends whose benchmark your going to use? Norway? No. Sweden? No. India? Yes. Nepal? Yes

What did I say about developing country and all that? Have you seen the crime rate in your neighbour Mexico? Or Colombia? Pakistan is a developing country and sure it has issues attendant to being developing country. I can assure you a poor Pakistan has greater economic and legal justice then a untouchable or shudra gets in India. You can't use Norway as benchmark.

So you prove your assertion - since you made it, that Pakistan is worse than others in similar development stage.

And @Syed.Ali.Haider below is map of Great Britain in 1918. Notice the yellow covers all of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Today. Notice the green or Republic of Ireland split off in 1921. Do you ever say Britain has fallen apart?

 

[haviZsultan]

@Syed.Ali.Haider @Hamartia Antidote

Very, very funny guy's. You know what annoys me? Pakistan get's real bad deal in Western media. Hell even Pak media is harsh on the country as can be seen. I am acutely aware of what "bullshit" is. I see it day, after day. It's been going on for decades where Pakistan is the favourite whipping boy of the Western media. Reports after reports of bullshit about Pakistan. Not long ago I was reading articles that said Pakistan was about to fall apart. That Islamabad was about to be overran by the Taliban. That nuclear missiles would fall into Taliban hands as the state would implode. You want to read real class A bullshit?

Pakistan could be overrun by Taliban, warns American military chief as extremists given 'last chance' to retreat.

Pakistan is moving steadily closer to being taken over by extremists, a U.S. military chief warned yesterday.There are indications that the Taliban is taking over territory nearer and nearer to the Pakistani capital of Islamabad.'We're certainly moving closer to the tipping point where Pakistan could be overtaken by Islamic extremists,' Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-chief-extremists-given-chance-retreat.html

I would love to ask this cnut that 8 years have passed. So when is it going to fall apart? This is typical garbage that goes as Western reporting on Pakistan. But along comes a rare event. A article that actually gives the country a positive light. And sure enough we can't have that can we?

Bullshit, yeh sure.

@RescueRanger @django @maximuswarrior @haviZsultan

I am also worried about the picture of Pakistan painted abroad. At first India was at the helm of this rogue state, terrorist state and failed state rubbish and in reality India was wishing that happened. Then western media picked it up. It was a victory of India that the narrative changed in the west in their favor.

Regardless we have a responsibility of presenting a soft image of Pakistan. Though I do worry because Pakistan hasn't grown economically fast enough and in the last 10 years we have exceeded 5% gdp growth rate. And then there were till recently, bombings every week. So a combination of our faults and what America/India wished would happen.

@Syed.Ali.Haider it seems you are a type of person who doesn't recognize the colour of his skin or his country. You are constantly posting pessimism here. I lived in the west myself and say the advancement and benefit of the secular system there.. But believe me, no matter what you do you will never be one of them. You are like a tissue paper for the Americans, Once they wipe their dirty drooling spit over their colonial imperialist plans they will abandon you. That is how the American system works. They use us immigrants hard work to make themselves strong.

Well if we used your analogy so has Great Britain, France, Russia, Spain etc. Need I remind your neck of woods was part of Britain once. You guys kicked Britain out.

Depends whose benchmark your going to use? Norway? No. Sweden? No. India? Yes. Nepal? Yes

What did I say about developing country and all that? Have you seen the crime rate in your neighbour Mexico? Or Colombia? Pakistan is a developing country and sure it has issues attendant to being developing country. I can assure you a poor Pakistan has greater economic and legal justice then a untouchable or shudra gets in India. You can't use Norway as benchmark.

So you prove your assertion - since you made it, that Pakistan is worse than others in similar development stage.

And @Syed.Ali.Haider below is map of Great Britain in 1918. Notice the yellow covers all of England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Today. Notice the green or Republic of Ireland split off in 1921. Do you ever say Britain has fallen apart?

Even Scotland is under a tenuous hold. 30-40% Scots want independence and Brexit has created a vast chasm in the unity of the country.

 

[Mrc]

Even if the Pakistani middle class is 84 million strong how much purchasing power does it really have? PHOTO: AFP

Disagree...

A one kanal house in defence lahore is fetching upwards of 700k usd ... it hardly stays on market for 15 days... no morgage ... cash buyers...karachi and islbd are even more expensive

90% properties in this price range has morgage in west... pakistani middle class shud not be under estimated

 

[VCheng]

Hope is not self-delusion, you are constantly looking at things through a pessimistic prism. That is your prerogative. Mine is to stay hopeful, work my part to making my home, city and people around me safer and better! That is all I can do. One step at a time!

Sir, I can recognize your prerogative, equally. If only there were more having the same attitude of working honestly at their own duties, undoubtedly Pakistan would be a much better place. But there are not, and that is mere realism and not pessimism. That is all.

 

[Jacob Martin]

@Syed.Ali.Haider

You face a monumental task.

Before, it used to be a simple matter of arguing with people who were deluded into thinking that things are going great. I have faced this situation many times when dealing with Indians here and in real life, who actually fail to see the signs. They will post images of fancy buildings, some expressways and airports, and cite GDP figures to argue that everything is fine.

But recently the trend has been different. In the age of internet and social media, many are convinced that perception is all that matters. Many of those venting spleen at you are as aware of the reality as you are - it's just that they don't see the point of dirty linen being washed in public. In their world being able to convince others that Pakistan/India is doing well is the same as it being so.

 

[VCheng]

@Syed.Ali.Haider

You face a monumental task.

Before, it used to be a simple matter of arguing with people who were deluded into thinking that things are going great. I have faced this situation many times when dealing with Indians here and in real life, who actually fail to see the signs. They will post images of fancy buildings, some expressways and airports, and cite GDP figures to argue that everything is fine.

But recently the trend has been different. In the age of internet and social media, many are convinced that perception is all that matters. Many of those venting spleen at you are as aware of the reality as you are - it's just that they don't see the point of dirty linen being washed in public. In their world being able to convince others that Pakistan/India is doing well is the same as it being so.

Actually, my task is very easy, because reality always shines through, no matter what shenanigans are tried to project an image. Reality. Substance. Not image.

@Syed.Ali.Haider it seems you are a type of person who doesn't recognize the colour of his skin or his country. You are constantly posting pessimism here. I lived in the west myself and say the advancement and benefit of the secular system there.. But believe me, no matter what you do you will never be one of them. You are like a tissue paper for the Americans, Once they wipe their dirty drooling spit over their colonial imperialist plans they will abandon you. That is how the American system works. They use us immigrants hard work to make themselves strong.

Please do read my signature.

Well if we used your analogy so has Great Britain, France, Russia, Spain etc. Need I remind your neck of woods was part of Britain once. You guys kicked Britain out.

Which one of these nations was carved out as a homeland for a religious minority as realization of a Two Nation theory? Did that dream survive 1971?

 

[haviZsultan]

Actually, my task is very easy, because reality always shines through, no matter what shenanigans are tried to project an image. Reality. Substance. Not image.



Please do read my signature.



Which one of these nations was carved out as a homeland for a religious minority as realization of a Two Nation theory? Did that dream survive 1971?

So talking about America and its policy is a "personal attack"... I thought better of you but you are being like a very typical American here. Shifting blame, even abusing your motherland. That is honorless my friend. Even if you don't believe Pakistan is going the right way, don't you want your land to improve. You can't abandon your country and put all your goods in the American basket. One day you will get a very rude awakening. Believe me. I got mine.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Which one of these nations was carved out as a homeland for a religious minority as realization of a Two Nation theory? Did that dream survive 1971?

A country does not need any reason to exist other than exist. You exist, Did you ever ask your parents why you came about? Maybe that night your dad got hot and did it. That might be the simple reason why you exist. Maybe you were a accident. Maybe you were not. But you exist and that is what matters in 2017.

And tell me what theory did America come about on? Taxation? Boston tea Party? Every country on earth has come about through some historical accident - just like you have. In America how many have divorced parents? Does it follow that they should not exist because the basis on which they came about (marriage) has broken down? Or a American born as result of quick nity shifty behind the bar walk around busting himself that why he was born or drawing some value on himself from the manner he was spawned?

If you had it your way you would be going around and asking all the American's with divorced parents "Did the love survive"?

 

[xyxmt]

Writer very effectively gave a load of bullshit, writer is just as smart as Truck driver who can write good English and during long trips from Karachi to Sukker, he came up with this bullshit article.

 

[Awan68]

@Syed.Ali.Haider @Hamartia Antidote

Very, very funny guy's. You know what annoys me? Pakistan get's real bad deal in Western media. Hell even Pak media is harsh on the country as can be seen. I am acutely aware of what "bullshit" is. I see it day, after day. It's been going on for decades where Pakistan is the favourite whipping boy of the Western media. Reports after reports of bullshit about Pakistan. Not long ago I was reading articles that said Pakistan was about to fall apart. That Islamabad was about to be overran by the Taliban. That nuclear missiles would fall into Taliban hands as the state would implode. You want to read real class A bullshit?

Pakistan could be overrun by Taliban, warns American military chief as extremists given 'last chance' to retreat.

Pakistan is moving steadily closer to being taken over by extremists, a U.S. military chief warned yesterday.There are indications that the Taliban is taking over territory nearer and nearer to the Pakistani capital of Islamabad.'We're certainly moving closer to the tipping point where Pakistan could be overtaken by Islamic extremists,' Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff said.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ry-chief-extremists-given-chance-retreat.html

I would love to ask this cnut that 8 years have passed. So when is it going to fall apart? This is typical garbage that goes as Western reporting on Pakistan. But along comes a rare event. A article that actually gives the country a positive light. And sure enough we can't have that can we?

Bullshit, yeh sure.

@RescueRanger @django @maximuswarrior @haviZsultan

Wow words of optimism from u??, suprised me mate, thought u were a die hard pessimist..

 

[Tiger Genie]

In the OP, there is this striking definition of how the bullshit artists work their magic:

"I recalled the book after reading two articles within a week talking up the Pakistani economy in The Wall Street Journal (WSJ) and The Washington Post. Both employed the classic bullshitter’s gambit of throwing out random facts to convey a favourable impression without caring in the least whether the inferences were in any way supported by fact or argument. Had a PR person been paid to write these articles, he or she couldn’t have done a better job"
and then within the same thread we see the below:

No. Absolutely NOT. I don't agree. I think by now you know I am not a retard or a sheep that follows the herd. I am rather a maverick by Pakistani standards. I will go against the flow if need be. I don't go with the flow for popularity. But I vehemantly disagree with your assertion. Do I think Pakistan is a developing country with all that it entails? Yes. Do I think Pakistan is any worse than other South Asian countries. No, indeed I think it comes out better then most. In the list of the developing world, Pakistan could do better but it is by no means doing worse than the average.

You made the assertion that institutions have failed - that is a claim. Do please present some hard facts to back up your claim. Failure or not is relative concept. Do not use Norway, Sweden as the benchmark please.

I saw this vlog by a Dutch girl crossing over from Iran into Pakistan. The region of Pakistan she enters, Balochistan is as you know is the 'Wild West' of Pakistan. Just ten miles north you have Afghan border with a full scale war there. The Iran/Pak border is subject to drug gangs, Baloch separatists and has limited infrastructure. Yet here even in the wilds of Pakistan the 'system' is working. Poor policemen on few dollars a day do their duty as best as they can. Through 400 miles of bandit country they escort her. So yes the system may creak, sputter but it works and will keep working. That I have no doubt about.

This lone woman rode all over Pakistan. According to media even a SEAL team would not survive in the country for longer than 24 hours. This is the gap between substance and image you keep bringing up. Image is NOT reality.

We see the initial grab for credibility by appealing 'I am really different and better than the average guy, so what I say must be sensible".

That is followed by an incredible opinion stated as fact - that Pakistan is doing better than rest of the 'region' which could be very well interpreted as Af-Pak or Af-Pak-India or Af-pak-Iran etc....ofcourse there will be atleast one hyphenation where Pakistan comes out better if one works long enough.

Then the assertion comes next - no no don't ask me, you prove the contrary. I am entitled to my version of facts and if you don't agree you disprove it

Finally the icing, the wonderful opiate of emotional tear jerker (or the random fact the prof mentions): ah, a dutch woman crossed in and the poor cops and everyone else treated the guest so well. the whole world can call us whatever they want , we may be down not out; we may be poor but we treat the guest great; we may be crossing the desert but we will share out last of the water with that person.

As the sun sets and the yellow golden glow turns red and out, we ride our unicorn into that sunset, head held high, lance recovered, visor risen, ...the knight bids goodbye in a pained but proud note.

Indeed the professor from Princeton done proud