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Early report: The F-35 dominated the dogfighting opposition in this year’s Red Flag exercises

F-22Raptor

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Red Flag training exercises are held several times a year and pit some of the U.S. Air Force’s best pilots and equipment against one another in simulated combat meant to approximate what an air-war with a near-peer opponent might be like. These drills offer pilots valuable experience when it comes to engaging other fighters, as the United States has not found itself in many conflicts that require a dogfight in decades (barring one shoot-down over Syria two years ago). Red Flag helps ensure America’s pilots are ready to fly into the fight if ever a war with a nation like China or Russia were to arise.

The most recent Red Flag drills were held over the past three weeks and saw participation from a dozen Air Force F-35As from the 388th Fighter Wing’s 4th Fighter Squadron, along with many other types of combat aircraft. Two years ago, when the F-35 had just reached its “initial operational capability,” the F-35 absolutely dominated the competition with a reported 20:1 kill ratio, meaning, 20 enemy aircraft were shot down (notionally) for every one F-35 lost.

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However, it wasn’t until a software update released late last year that the F-35’s full combat potential was unlocked. Prior to this update, the F-35 was limited to around half of its designed turning capabilities along with a number of other “training wheel”-type protections meant to ensure pilots didn’t push the planes past their limits while testing remained ongoing. However, the F-35’s full skill set has now been released to the pilots, and although no figures have emerged regarding the F-35’s success, some quotes from the event already paint a dominant picture for the Joint Strike Fighter.

According to reports from airmen assigned to the 388th FW, the first large-scale drills saw the F-35s joining a large “Blue Air” force tasked with a “counter air” mission against 60 inbound enemy aircraft. These enemy planes reportedly used “robust” electronic attack capabilities to limit the effectiveness of the fourth-generation fighters in the Blue Air contingent, leaving them reliant on the relatively small number of F-35s in the air with them to sift through the noise and provide a reliable picture of how the combat unfolded.

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“I’ve never seen anything like it before. This is not a mission you want a young pilot flying in,” Col. Joshua Wood said of the chaos in the skies as 60 enemy aircraft engaged their Blue Air force. “My wingman was a brand new F-35A pilot, seven or eight flights out of training.”

This is an important element to note: as capable as an F-35 may be, pilot expertise is widely viewed as the most valuable element of a fighter’s performance. Fighter pilots will often tell you that a highly-experienced pilot in a fourth-generation platform actually has the advantage over an inexperienced fifth-generation (F-35, F-22) pilot in a dogfight. Still, it would seem unlocking the F-35’s full capabilities may change that dynamic in the Joint Strike Fighter’s favor. According to Colonel Wood, his brand new F-35 wingman not only helped ensure his more experienced fourth-generation friends survived the fight, he nabbed a number of kills himself.

“He gets on the radio and tells an experienced, 3,000-hour pilot in a very capable fourth-generation aircraft, ‘Hey bud, you need to turn around. You’re about to die. There’s a threat off your nose.’” Wood went on to say the relative “newbie” garnered four total kills in the drill. “Even in this extremely challenging environment, the F-35 didn’t have many difficulties doing its job. That’s a testament to the pilot’s training and the capabilities of the jet.”

https://thenewsrep.com/114180/early...-opposition-in-this-years-red-flag-exercises/
 
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GettyImages-6473036281.jpg



Red Flag training exercises are held several times a year and pit some of the U.S. Air Force’s best pilots and equipment against one another in simulated combat meant to approximate what an air-war with a near-peer opponent might be like. These drills offer pilots valuable experience when it comes to engaging other fighters, as the United States has not found itself in many conflicts that require a dogfight in decades (barring one shoot-down over Syria two years ago). Red Flag helps ensure America’s pilots are ready to fly into the fight if ever a war with a nation like China or Russia were to arise.

The most recent Red Flag drills were held over the past three weeks and saw participation from a dozen Air Force F-35As from the 388th Fighter Wing’s 4th Fighter Squadron, along with many other types of combat aircraft. Two years ago, when the F-35 had just reached its “initial operational capability,” the F-35 absolutely dominated the competition with a reported 20:1 kill ratio, meaning, 20 enemy aircraft were shot down (notionally) for every one F-35 lost.

120918-F-JQ435-108.JPG.png


However, it wasn’t until a software update released late last year that the F-35’s full combat potential was unlocked. Prior to this update, the F-35 was limited to around half of its designed turning capabilities along with a number of other “training wheel”-type protections meant to ensure pilots didn’t push the planes past their limits while testing remained ongoing. However, the F-35’s full skill set has now been released to the pilots, and although no figures have emerged regarding the F-35’s success, some quotes from the event already paint a dominant picture for the Joint Strike Fighter.

According to reports from airmen assigned to the 388th FW, the first large-scale drills saw the F-35s joining a large “Blue Air” force tasked with a “counter air” mission against 60 inbound enemy aircraft. These enemy planes reportedly used “robust” electronic attack capabilities to limit the effectiveness of the fourth-generation fighters in the Blue Air contingent, leaving them reliant on the relatively small number of F-35s in the air with them to sift through the noise and provide a reliable picture of how the combat unfolded.

8804681882_89cd1606f1_k.jpg


“I’ve never seen anything like it before. This is not a mission you want a young pilot flying in,” Col. Joshua Wood said of the chaos in the skies as 60 enemy aircraft engaged their Blue Air force. “My wingman was a brand new F-35A pilot, seven or eight flights out of training.”

This is an important element to note: as capable as an F-35 may be, pilot expertise is widely viewed as the most valuable element of a fighter’s performance. Fighter pilots will often tell you that a highly-experienced pilot in a fourth-generation platform actually has the advantage over an inexperienced fifth-generation (F-35, F-22) pilot in a dogfight. Still, it would seem unlocking the F-35’s full capabilities may change that dynamic in the Joint Strike Fighter’s favor. According to Colonel Wood, his brand new F-35 wingman not only helped ensure his more experienced fourth-generation friends survived the fight, he nabbed a number of kills himself.

“He gets on the radio and tells an experienced, 3,000-hour pilot in a very capable fourth-generation aircraft, ‘Hey bud, you need to turn around. You’re about to die. There’s a threat off your nose.’” Wood went on to say the relative “newbie” garnered four total kills in the drill. “Even in this extremely challenging environment, the F-35 didn’t have many difficulties doing its job. That’s a testament to the pilot’s training and the capabilities of the jet.”

https://thenewsrep.com/114180/early...-opposition-in-this-years-red-flag-exercises/

As expected, you'll soon see the critics quiet down as well.
 
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As expected, you'll soon see the critics quiet down as well.

Oh please. Don't give the appropriate EW capabilities to 4th gen aircraft, then extol your latest experiment. Now if they go up against Russians, they aren't going to tie one hand on the back. With NCW (network centric warfare) even their Mig-29s can prove lethal to the F-35. The USAF mentally conditions its pilots to sing praises of the latest aircraft by holding back the latest tech from half of them. What this exercise actually shows is the vulnerability of highly experienced USAF pilots in good 4th gen aircrafts to EW and NCW. I am sure the Russians will be noting this particular aspect.

Also, without knowing the scenario in detail, we can't really say how effective were the F-35s.
 
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Oh please. Don't give the appropriate EW capabilities to 4th gen aircraft, then extol your latest experiment. Now if they go up against Russians, they aren't going to tie one hand on the back. With NCW (network centric warfare) even their Mig-29s can prove lethal to the F-35. The USAF mentally conditions its pilots to sing praises of the latest aircraft by holding back the latest tech from half of them. What this exercise actually shows is the vulnerability of highly experienced USAF pilots in good 4th gen aircrafts to EW and NCW. I am sure the Russians will be noting this particular aspect.

Also, without knowing the scenario in detail, we can't really say how effective were the F-35s.

But wouldn't that be obvious i.e. such aircraft will be without the EW capability of the the F-35 which is a generation ahead?
Ok going up against the Russians, but as I'm aware there hasn't been a single kill by Russian aircraft over US in a combat scenario, when the planes have had similar capabilities.
The scenario is spot on, on one can really know.
 
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electronic warfare capabilities of russia is widely known.exercises are good but real war is a totally different thing.previously f-35 is known for bad dog fighting record.suddenly it started to kill targets.each kill depends on the target as well.i am not sure about f-35 dog fighting capabilities.
 
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Oh please. Don't give the appropriate EW capabilities to 4th gen aircraft, then extol your latest experiment. Now if they go up against Russians, they aren't going to tie one hand on the back. With NCW (network centric warfare) even their Mig-29s can prove lethal to the F-35. The USAF mentally conditions its pilots to sing praises of the latest aircraft by holding back the latest tech from half of them. What this exercise actually shows is the vulnerability of highly experienced USAF pilots in good 4th gen aircrafts to EW and NCW. I am sure the Russians will be noting this particular aspect.

Also, without knowing the scenario in detail, we can't really say how effective were the F-35s.

Looking back at history.

Soviet/Russian platforms haven't fared well against Western ones.
 
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With bvr capability there is no need of dogfight with f35
 
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electronic warfare capabilities of russia is widely known.exercises are good but real war is a totally different thing.previously f-35 is known for bad dog fighting record.suddenly it started to kill targets.each kill depends on the target as well.i am not sure about f-35 dog fighting capabilities.

Dog fighting meta is gone with introduction of BVR and heat seaking missiles. The current generation heat seaking missiles make dog fight a huge risk. Also, the F-35 in its trainings against F-16's and other 4th generation planes, has achieved a Kill-to-death ratio of 53:1, that speaks a lot about its capability and no wonder USAF and Pentagon are paying Lockheed Martin another $22 billion or something for over a 100 of them.
 
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Dog fighting meta is gone with introduction of BVR and heat seaking missiles. The current generation heat seaking missiles make dog fight a huge risk. Also, the F-35 in its trainings against F-16's and other 4th generation planes, has achieved a Kill-to-death ratio of 53:1, that speaks a lot about its capability and no wonder USAF and Pentagon are paying Lockheed Martin another $22 billion or something for over a 100 of them.

The problem is that it known how to defeat stealth.
You need to have a mesh of receivers that collectively analyze the reflection of the stealth aircraft. They can find the stealth aircraft, where a single radar cannot.
Had a chat with a colleague which was involved in the research done in Sweden during the 1990s.
 
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The problem is that it known how to defeat stealth.
You need to have a mesh of receivers that collectively analyze the reflection of the stealth aircraft. They can find the stealth aircraft, where a single radar cannot.
Had a chat with a colleague which was involved in the research done in Sweden during the 1990s.

That involves having the mesh of receivers and hoping the connectivity between the mesh and analysis center is not disrupted
 
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That involves having the mesh of receivers and hoping the connectivity between the mesh and analysis center is not disrupted

Certainly, but that is not an impossible task.
It will only work in a defensive situation. It is hard to deploy a mesh in foreign territory.
 
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But wouldn't that be obvious i.e. such aircraft will be without the EW capability of the the F-35 which is a generation ahead?
Ok going up against the Russians, but as I'm aware there hasn't been a single kill by Russian aircraft over US in a combat scenario, when the planes have had similar capabilities.
The scenario is spot on, on one can really know.

You are failing to appreciate the farcical nature of the exercise. The EW capabilities of the F-35 can be replicated through another aircraft or combination of aircrafts. It's not about the 35, it's about the sensors and data processing. We need to stop getting wowed by specific aircrafts. Can America's enemies field similar capabilities? Read here for an example

https://www.news.com.au/technology/...a/news-story/3fe13ebb59d2d46082750af3fb6cbb6f
 
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But wouldn't that be obvious i.e. such aircraft will be without the EW capability of the the F-35 which is a generation ahead?
Ok going up against the Russians, but as I'm aware there hasn't been a single kill by Russian aircraft over US in a combat scenario, when the planes have had similar capabilities.
The scenario is spot on, on one can really know.
Actually the Egyptians had only the Mig-21 in 1973 war, and they managed to shoot down more than 100 (300+ in total) Usrael aircrafts, most of them were the F-4, and including the Mirage and hawker.. all of them 1 generation ahead of the Mig-21..4 Pakistani Pilots managed to do 6-8 kills with the same Mig-21s on the same more advanced Usraeli planes in that war..
As far as the F-35 and more so the F-22 are concerned, no one know yet..maybe only the ones who can spot them with high precision satellites or have very advanced radars..
 
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Actually the Egyptians had only the Mig-21 in 1973 war, and they managed to shoot down more than 100 (300+ in total) Usrael aircrafts, most of them were the F-4, and including the Mirage and hawker.. all of them 1 generation ahead of the Mig-21..4 Pakistani Pilots managed to do 6-8 kills with the same Mig-21s on the same more advanced Usraeli planes in that war..
As far as the F-35 and more so the F-22 are concerned, no one know yet..maybe only the ones who can spot them with high precision satellites or have very advanced radars..

And how is it relevant when almost all of the Israeli losses were to SAM batteries?
Does not make the MiG-21 a performer does it.
And no, the Pakistanis did not make single kill in that war. They arrived too late.
They managed to shoot down some attack aircraft from the 1950s and a Mirage III during the 67 war, but had to leave Jordania by bus, since Israel destroyed all their aircrafts.
Those kills were made in Hawker Hunters.
Then they got a few kills after the 73 war in MiG-21, that all.
 
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But wouldn't that be obvious i.e. such aircraft will be without the EW capability of the the F-35 which is a generation ahead?
Ok going up against the Russians, but as I'm aware there hasn't been a single kill by Russian aircraft over US in a combat scenario, when the planes have had similar capabilities.
The scenario is spot on, on one can really know.

Iraqi Mig-25 destroyed a US F-18 over Iraq in 1991.
Remember in 1991 Gulf War, Iraq had only a couple of squadrons of downgraded Mig-29s and no AWACs, against hundreds of coalition 4th gen fighters backed by AWACs.
Yes, I can believe that 20:1 kill ratio against 4th gen fighters, but how will the F-35 fare against other 5th gen fighters from the likes of China?
 
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