EADS Euro/Fighter Engine Available with TOT

[mean_bird]

Pakistan at some instance of time will have to go into engine production, its looks idiotic to say that we want to manufacture planes, however, not engines.

If u make everything in a plane but not the engine, it'd still be assembling not 100% manufacturing.

In a hypothetical situation, lets assume, pakistan manufactures everything in JF17 except engines and no one in the world is ready to sell you planes or engines, how'd pakistan make its planes airbourne?

We have to have a state of the art engine with complete TOT.

So in my opinion pakistan must capitalize on this opportunity.

Abbas,

Manufacturing engines is not an easy task. Its pretty sophisticated and require a well built industry for metals and materials -- both of which we lack. Also setting up all the infrastructure in place requires heavy investment which we cannot afford at this point in time.

Regarding the ToT, even India is vary of the conditions and think only a few low level tech will be transferred and not 100%. This leaves you standing nowhere. Frankly, even if 100% were to be transferred, without and established and experienced industrial base, it would be unlikely to bear any fruits. India has failed with the kaveri with all the investment, China is struggling to make an engine with all its industrial might.

Even countries with far greater GDP and direct US defense assistance like Israel decided not to go for Lavi for one reason only--cost--and instead preferred buying off the shelf. Unless you are a huge country that plans to invest heavily in the defense sector in order to capture the global market with your products accompanied by your political and strategic presence, investing heavily just for personal use is not such a wise idea.

If anything, pakistan should demand the rights to manufacture some components in the RD-93 that needs to be replaced more often and/or be able to overhaul the engine. That in itself will be a major step forward. As a precaution, we can and should have some spares lying around. With the current world scenario, its pretty unlikely pakistan would struggle finding parts for the RD-93 either legally or through black market (with knowledge of russia) or even chinese parts.

 

[Storm Force]

Mean bird.

Dont forget Everybody here was talking about Western tech . IE Euro or USA engine and radar/weapons.

RD93M or some russian engine will stil give you handicap of low servicability and pressure from india on Russia to handipcap the Thunders during high tension.

I stil believe the EJ200 is a dream option. ITS A BRAND NEW ENGINE.

 

[Developereo]

Like mean bird stated, the ToT on offer is only partial. Jet engine development takes decades and heavy investment. Do you really think the Europeans will hand over their full intellectual capital to another country, even India, for a measly 10 billion dollars?

I suspect what they are offering is some assembly in India with crucial parts being manufactured in Euro.

 

[Storm Force]

ARE WE THEN STATING that no western engine is to be sought for Thunder or indeed Radar and weapons.

ASre we saying the Russian engine is ideal ?????????/

 

[rajeev]

Like mean bird stated, the ToT on offer is only partial. Jet engine development takes decades and heavy investment. Do you really think the Europeans will hand over their full intellectual capital to another country, even India, for a measly 10 billion dollars?

I suspect what they are offering is some assembly in India with crucial parts being manufactured in Euro.

Yes, I dont think they will hand over the technology for 10b$. But they will offer the technology if India is willing to join as a partner and contribute to the future development of the project. Eurofighter is funded by Germany (ok economy), UK (economy still in shock), Italy (worsened economy), Spain (worsened economy), Austria (small economy). As you see most economies are having problems and there is concern whether they can keep on funding the project without substantial backing from a country. India might seem to fit in for them.

They dont have much choice other than India as well. They wont sell to China. Japan is not interested. Only Brazil is left and they are looking for Rafale.

 

[mean_bird]

Mean bird.

Dont forget Everybody here was talking about Western tech . IE Euro or USA engine and radar/weapons.

RD93M or some russian engine will stil give you handicap of low servicability and pressure from india on Russia to handipcap the Thunders during high tension.

I stil believe the EJ200 is a dream option. ITS A BRAND NEW ENGINE.

It doesn't matter everyone is talking here. What matters is PAF's thinking vs its bank account. It might be a dream, but not all dreams are fulfilled.

RD-93 might have a disadvantage in its lifetime and/or its thrust but I don't think India will have enough pressure to do anything. If it couldn't stop it in the first place. Remember, pakistan is not dealing directly with Russia, so either Russia will have to deny China or China will have to deny us, both of which are unlikely.

OTOH, Britian can and probably will sanction us if US demands so.

(forget about producing it here, not a feasible option in the near future).

ARE WE THEN STATING that no western engine is to be sought for Thunder or indeed Radar and weapons.

ASre we saying the Russian engine is ideal ?????????/

Regarding engines, I think it is unlikely but nothing is impossible. Still either WS-13 or increased thrust RD-93 will be the preferred option IMO.

Weapons and radar is more probable but then again chinese companies have also advanced and might compete with the west or even win with lower prices. But the probability of a western radar, including maybe assembly and/ or repair, is quite possible.

Yes, I dont think they will hand over the technology for 10b$. But they will offer the technology if India is willing to join as a partner and contribute to the future development of the project. Eurofighter is funded by Germany (ok economy), UK (economy still in shock), Italy (worsened economy), Spain (worsened economy), Austria (small economy). As you see most economies are having problems and there is concern whether they can keep on funding the project without substantial backing from a country. India might seem to fit in for them.

They dont have much choice other than India as well. They wont sell to China. Japan is not interested. Only Brazil is left and they are looking for Rafale.

Some of the key technologies are jealously guarded. I don't think EADS will be willing to part away with it. And frankly even if it did, there will be little India can do until the time its industries also go hi-tech. The other option is Britain also establish that industry for you, which is pretty unlikely. It will be like cutting the branch you are sitting on.

 

[Storm Force]

Interesting comments from you meanbird.

Your the first FORUM MEMBER who as admitted that Thunder wil remain with chinease systems.

Some menbers have been talking Thunder block 2 with massive western/french upgrade.

Clearly unlikely due to massive $$$$$$$ cash required.

 

[Developereo]

Eurofighter is funded by Germany (ok economy), UK (economy still in shock), Italy (worsened economy), Spain (worsened economy), Austria (small economy). As you see most economies are having problems and there is concern whether they can keep on funding the project without substantial backing from a country. India might seem to fit in for them.

Still unlikely that they would part with key technologies.

Take the Russia/India joint ventures for example. Both sides say in public that it's an equal partnership, but anybody familiar with the technologies knows that it is Russian know-how with Indian money. The Russians have been competing with the Americans for decades and don't need anybody else to teach them about technology. The Russians need the Indians to write the checks, nothing more. In exchange, India gets very little technology; the Russians keep details of key components to themselves.

 

[bilal1219]

Still unlikely that they would part with key technologies.

Take the Russia/India joint ventures for example. Both sides say in public that it's an equal partnership, but anybody familiar with the technologies knows that it is Russian know-how with Indian money. The Russians have been competing with the Americans for decades and don't need anybody else to teach them about technology. The Russians need the Indians to write the checks, nothing more. In exchange, India gets very little technology; the Russians keep details of key components to themselves.

You just took the words of my mouth OMG.

 

[mughaljee]

If this is with TOT,
then it might be interesting and we should take advantage of this opportunity.

 

[Super Falcon]

i also bellieve we should take this oppertunity but probleum is our ministry of defence will take alot of time to finalise the deal around 2 to 4 years as it is goiong with U 214

 

[mean_bird]

Interesting comments from you meanbird.

Your the first FORUM MEMBER who as admitted that Thunder wil remain with chinease systems.

Some menbers have been talking Thunder block 2 with massive western/french upgrade.

Clearly unlikely due to massive $$$$$$$ cash required.

You are misquoting me. I am saying

- producing an engine in pakistan with some ToT is very very unlikely to happen in the near future, be it the Eurojet, Snecma's engines or even the RD-93/WS-13.

- Switching the engine, particularly for the first 150, is also very unlikely. I personally do not see that happening. Beyond those figures, it will depend on the regional situation and pakistan's economy. Its a bit early to speculate at this time.

- RD-93 with increased thrust is very much a possibility. WS-13 (or whatever the designation finally becomes) is also a real possibility. Western engines is unlikely.

- It should be (or atleast I wish it is) in the PAF's plans and schedule to do some repair and engine overhauling here in pakistan. I also think it will happen in future i.e highly probable.

- Regarding western weapons and radar, here's what I said and I quote myself

Weapons and radar is more probable but then again chinese companies have also advanced and might compete with the west or even win with lower prices. But the probability of a western radar, including maybe assembly and/ or repair, is quite possible.

This might be seen as soon as plane 51. Even existing airframes will acquire it during their MLU as is widely seen across the military aviation industry.

5th gen. WVR missile and a decent BVR, AESA radar, a very good ECM, IRST, etc are all highly probable and very possible including, as I said, some production of some parts taking place in pakistan under ToT. Whether these will be western or chinese will depend on price, terms of the contract and the ability of the chinese companies to compete with the West.

- Reduction in weight (using carbon composites) and/or other techniques is a strong possibility. Especially with China acquiring a significant share in a western company specializing in this and PAC's experience with this in the Falco manufacturing. Expect to see it in the next batch or even in later production of the current batch.

- We already know that IFR is going to happen and even existing airframes will be retrofitted with it.

- Currently I have no intuition or informed rumors about the twin-seat version. I guess it will happen but most probably beyond the first 50. That is, depending on the response we get after the induction both from PAF and from foreign customers (if any), production lines would have established and matured, future plans much more clear, etc.

- What ever technologies get involved in the JF-17, whether chinese or western, it will probably have a lot in common with the FC-20. Ranging from cockpit design, maintenance facilities, equipment being used, etc.

 

[Developereo]

I can understand that an indigenous jet engine program requries a lot of expensive infrastructure, but we should try to get 100% indigenous capability in other areas like radar, ECM, etc.

 

[pak-yes]

Producing an engine is not an easy thing.It requires both immense Capital,Industrial capabilities and Technical know how and Political Will.Yes Political will are also required to make these types of things not only to increase self reliance but as a tool of global influence.Even if a country does get the technical know how and it lacks the industrial base the TOT is useless because manufacturing an engine is just one thing you also required Raw Material for it and this Raw Material it self is complicated to produce and besides if you just plan to make a 150 air crafts with no chance of good exports then all the capital spent on the engine developing is useless.so if government wants to produce an engine it should make a heavy vehicles engine developing company like tanks and in the meanwhile rely on foreign engine and after a decade the company will have enough experience that with little investment that company will be able to produce heli engines and after some more years it could finally produce air craft engine.now i know that all of them are different but the main thing is experience and industrial base to supply materials and technical manpower for development its a gradual process

 

[jamal18]

However it is to be done, the first step has to be taken now.
It's expensive and technically difficult? Lets take several years to do it, and divide the problem by the number of years....