Dutch lawmaker planning film criticizing the Quran

[HK-47]

Insulting is different.. criticising is something else...

we or rather Islam has been insulted more than criticized.I will be looking forward to this documentary.Most probably it will be about our dear oppressed women ,domestic violence.,honour killings,women,'Islamic terrorism',women and antisemitism and women again.

If I call you **** if you make a mistake.. that is criticizing.. if I call your mother something that is abusing..

true and both are supported by freedom of speech.there is a difference between criticism and insulting but we have been insulted and abuse in the name of criticism.
I am sorry I brought up Hinduism and Draupadi too.I was trying to make a point.let's forget it.

and what do you mean by religious Indian states??

I meant conservative states and not Gujarat specifically(heck why is that place regarded so religious b'coz of the riots?).

 

[aryan2007]

we or rather Islam has been insulted more than criticized.I will be looking forward to this documentary.

I'd rather not be bothered... the issue is generally Muslims will tend to confuse been insults and criticism esp if its by a non Muslim... and Netherlands be prepared for a Denmark

Most probably it will be about our dear oppressed women,

Which is true... but he will quote verses glorifying violence if their are any or are there??

domestic violence.,honour killings,women,'Islamic terrorism',women and antisemitism and women again.

well these things are social evils created and practised by Muslims... not sanctioned by Islam(not sure about antisemitism)...

I am sorry I brought up Hinduism and Draupadi too.I was trying to make a point.let's forget it.

why are you sorry?? It is a natural response in Indian sub-continent.. to bring Hinduism or India into everything..

true and both are supported by freedom of speech.

they are not.. for abusing you can be booked under obscenity laws and for criticising nothing happens... if ur teacher calls u d umb for not being able to do a sum is okay.. but if she says something about ur family that is when she will be fired from her job...
(btw in teh previous post I posted D umb.. and it got censored so I wrote unintelligent it was not a 4 letter abuse)

anyways in India you see people never criticising minority religions publicly... at least not by their non followers...

I meant conservative states and not Gujarat specifically(heck why is that place regarded so religious b'coz of the riots?).

Because frankly it is the most conservative and "religious" state.. but it is also one of the richest... nuthing to do with riots... Look at Memons they are pretty conservative Muslims they are Gujarati as well.. everyone in Gujarat is conservative..

Bimaru/Cow belt states like UP, MP, Bihar.. are backward conservative religious poor states.. nothing will happen there either

 

[HK-47]

criticism is one thing;I am more concerned about hatred expressed rather than criticism verbal or physical.

well these things are social evils created and practised by Muslims... not sanctioned by Islam(not sure about antisemitism)...

true these are real issues and they need to be dealt with but Islam is blamed for it whereas these practices(honour killings,forced marriages) is cultural;domestic violence is something that happens everywhere but only Muslims make the headlines nowadays,and antisemitism is present much owing to the decades old Arab-Israeli conflict and Muslim sympathy for the Palestinians.

Less than 10 minutes long, the film is expected to air in late January. It will show "the intolerant and fascist character of the Quran," said Wilders, whose anti-Islam campaign helped his Freedom Party win nine seats in parliament in last year's election.

In the past, Wilders has said that half the Quran should be torn up and compared it with Adolf Hitler's book "Mein Kampf." He has claimed the Netherlands is being swamped by a "tsunami" of Islamic immigrants.

I am also worried about this growing anti Islam sentiments in Holland;our nation is dependent on it for aid mainly and if this thing goes on God knows what will happen;they are very influential these donor nations.

for abusing you can be booked under obscenity laws and for criticising nothing happens...

nope not always.haven't seen anyone getting locked up by western nations for obscene comments/actions towards Islam.

 

[aryan2007]

criticism is one thing;I am more concerned about hatred expressed rather than criticism verbal or physical.

Nah here the law is ambiguous.. you can't do anything about it.. if I guy is criticising you because either he cares for you ,hates you or feels you are incomptent etc..

I think it is only justified if Muslims in even developed countries showing hate against jews, Israel and against their host nations at times.. then they should also expect the tables to be turned...

true these are real issues and they need to be dealt with but Islam is blamed for it whereas these practices(honour killings,forced marriages) is cultural;domestic violence is something that happens everywhere but only Muslims make the headlines nowadays,and antisemitism is present much owing to the decades old Arab-Israeli conflict and Muslim sympathy for the Palestinians.

But the problem is that Muslims justify them religiously at times... discrimination against women for example is given a religious go-ahead..
so what will an avg person make it out to be... ??
He/she shall think rest of the things are also religiously sanctioned..
in Iran marriage of girls over 9 is sanctioned religiously ... etc...
So all the ills plaguing Muslims are blamed on teh religion and even the guys who practise it try to give it a somewhat religious tinge IMO

I am also worried about this growing anti Islam sentiments in Holland;our nation is dependent on it for aid mainly and if this thing goes on God knows what will happen;they are very influential these donor nations.

DUde I don't know why you want aid? You guys are as corrupt as Indians or Pakistanis.. ask them to invest in industries which employ people.. I hate it when people give aid or donations or run charities for the poor.. it is being irresponsible.. use that aid to generate more money or employment...

nope not always.haven't seen anyone getting locked up by western nations for obscene comments/actions towards Islam.

I wouldnt know about Western nations.. obsecntily laws exists in India... there everything goes.. neither have I heard people getting locked up for insulting Christanity or any other religion....

 

[Awesome]

The problem I see with this guy making the movie is we don't get a chance to launch counter arguments. If he wants to really highlight the issue, he is welcome to come in a debate. We have that all the time around here.

I like to take such people on. Sadly their arguments are beaten to the punch whenever they have confronted Muslims in debate. So now if you notice no one comes forth in debate and it's all just making a one sided documentary, film portraying us as terrorists and then we all know what the cartoons were.

 

[roadrunner]

try criticising Gandhi in India no one will object... few might join ya.. or few like me might argue

go to Pakistan try criticising Jinnah.. I am sure there will be a different reaction...

Well, that's more bull. Obviously you don't know India too well. Some Indians are very much in love with Gandhi and quite prepared to murder someone who bad mouths him.

Also you can go to Pakistan, and criticize Jinnah, noone will do anything. Should you go and insult him, then 1 or two might. I would say there's more tolerance for JInnah in Pakistan, than Gandhi in Bharat.

 

[roadrunner]

But the problem is that Muslims justify them religiously at times... discrimination against women for example is given a religious go-ahead..
so what will an avg person make it out to be... ??
He/she shall think rest of the things are also religiously sanctioned..
in Iran marriage of girls over 9 is sanctioned religiously ... etc...
So all the ills plaguing Muslims are blamed on teh religion and even the guys who practise it try to give it a somewhat religious tinge IMO

So if the perpetrator of a crime justifies his own crimes on the basis of a scripture, it means that the perpetrator's interpretation must be right? In that case why aren't the majority of people doing what he's doing? Fascist line of thinking. Not possible to group the majority line of thinking based on a criminal minority.

I wouldnt know about Western nations.. obsecntily laws exists in India... there everything goes.. neither have I heard people getting locked up for insulting Christanity or any other religion....

Could be right, but this one is getting there..punishing people who convert from one faith to another is hardly the mark of a tolerant nation. That reminds me of Iran. And it was all introduced under the Singh government obviously back by the Hindu radicals in parliament.

Lawmakers in Himachal Pradesh had introduced the law, which bans “forced” religious conversions. Under the legislation, any person or persons found to “force” or “induce” someone to change his or her religion could be liable for punishment.

‘Anti-Christian’ Law Introduced in India, Fears of Persecution Rise

 

[Awesome]

So if the perpetrator of a crime justifies his own crimes on the basis of a scripture, it means that the perpetrator's interpretation must be right? In that case why aren't the majority of people doing what he's doing? Fascist line of thinking. Not possible to group the majority line of thinking based on a criminal minority.



Could be right, but this one is getting there..punishing people who convert from one faith to another is hardly the mark of a tolerant nation. That reminds me of Iran. And it was all introduced under the Singh government obviously back by the Hindu radicals in parliament.

Lawmakers in Himachal Pradesh had introduced the law, which bans “forced” religious conversions. Under the legislation, any person or persons found to “force” or “induce” someone to change his or her religion could be liable for punishment.

‘Anti-Christian’ Law Introduced in India, Fears of Persecution Rise

Define inducement . Forced I can understand. You know like putting a gun to someone's head. But telling them that Christianity is nice, Christians are nice... That doesn't sound so bad.

 

[Chanakya]

Could be right, but this one is getting there..punishing people who convert from one faith to another is hardly the mark of a tolerant nation. That reminds me of Iran. And it was all introduced under the Singh government obviously back by the Hindu radicals in parliament.

Lawmakers in Himachal Pradesh had introduced the law, which bans “forced” religious conversions. Under the legislation, any person or persons found to “force” or “induce” someone to change his or her religion could be liable for punishment.

‘Anti-Christian’ Law Introduced in India, Fears of Persecution Rise

any one has a right to change his faith ..

Define inducement . Forced I can understand. You know like putting a gun to someone's head. But telling them that Christianity is nice, Christians are nice... That doesn't sound so bad.

If all religions are equal , then why conversion?

 

[roadrunner]

any one has a right to change his faith ..

So you oppose this recent law?

If all religions are equal , then why conversion?

Come on dude..that's really silly. All religions have equal rights, but not to decide who follows them..that is up to the person.

 

[aryan2007]

Well, that's more bull. Obviously you don't know India too well. Some Indians are very much in love with Gandhi and quite prepared to murder someone who bad mouths him.

Are you an Indian?? by any chance.. cause I am one.. and many of the people make fun of him.. I have not seen anyone get beat up or get into arguement for criticising, insulting, abusing Gandhi... unless you come up with a F*ck Gandhi and Glory to Jinnah Tee while waving Pakistani Flag you will not encounter any opposition.. and miscreants will usually be RSS or SS low level politicians who just want a bit of publicity..


LOL... Its like the placard that says Behead those who says Islam is violent.. LOL

Gandhi was a man of peace, seen teh movie Gandhi my father?? his followers were people who drove out the British without even giving a slap.. aka by non violence.. His true supporter will never strike or bad mouth you...

Duh...

Also you can go to Pakistan, and criticize Jinnah, noone will do anything. Should you go and insult him, then 1 or two might. I would say there's more tolerance for JInnah in Pakistan, than Gandhi in Bharat.

I think not.. I will on this forum post expletive to both Jinnah and Gandhi on which count will I receive infraction and on which will thread will I be heaped abuses.. stop kidding yaar..
Jinnah is more revered and respected and there is a cult of personality around him
Gandhi I believe should be equally revered and respected by us.. but we have sadly not doing that...

PS even Gandhis' hometown is a hot bed of criminals and killings..

The fact is people have forgotten Gandhi in India.. he is irrelevant.. there was some talk of a revival post MUnnabhai but it was all talk...

Mahatma Gandhi Lost and Forgotten in India
Mahatma Gandhi: Lost and Forgotten in India by Dr. Subhash Kapila

" I know Mahatma Gandhi has been forgotten in India but not outside. I think he is better known around the world than in India"
Arun Gandhi(Grandson)
BBC NEWS | World | South Asia | Gandhi's non-violence message to Mid-East

Ruing that the importance of 'Ahimsa' has been forgotten, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Tuesday said the value of non-violence preached by Mahatma Gandhi is relevant even today as a way of life and as a tool to govern the country.
Many a time I feel that we have forgotten the importance of 'Ahimsa'. But it is a weapon that can make anybody powerful and strong," he said
Value of non-violence forgotten, rues PM - Yahoo! India News

Tara Gandhi, granddaughter of M K Gandhi and vice president Kasturba Gandhi National Memorial Trust, said there was every possibility of Gandhi being forgotten in India as Lord Buddha was centuries ago.
'Gandhi may soon be forgotten in India'-Chandigarh-Cities-The Times of India


Monday, India paused to remember the life of Mohandas Gandhi. Like every year on this national holiday commemorating the birth of the Father of India, there were grand words, garlands, and one nagging question: Is this little man, swaddled in homespun cloth and armed only with his own reason, still relevant in an India of Internet millionaires and nuclear weapons?

To the broader world, it might seem strange that Gandhi - the man who adorns every rupee note and is synonymous with the liberation of India - should be forgotten in his own country. But there are few here who would argue the point.
It took a comedy to revive Gandhi's ideals in India | csmonitor.com

 

[Chanakya]

roadrunner

So you oppose this recent law?

Yes I do . and that law is in Himachal pradesh ( a state in India ) not in India .

Come on dude..that's really silly. All religions have equal rights, but not to decide who follows them..that is up to the person.

You didn't get the Point . it is directed towards the logic of conversion . if all the religions are peaceful and lead towards the same path then why ask someone to convert ?

 

[aryan2007]

Yes I do . and that law is in Himachal pradesh ( a state in India ) not in India

HP is a protected state similar to J and K ... but less autonomous.. for eg only residents or persons of Himachal can own lands in HP Rest of Indians cannot

 

[roadrunner]

Aryan2007,

Gandhi is not irrelevant to some Indians. I've spoken to them, and they do get very peed off when Gandhi is not praised and blessed. They are some of the more verbally violent types I've encountered. Gandhi didn't do much for Indian independence. It was World War II that freed the subcontinent. People like Bose were probably the second factor, the mutineering. Gandhi I'd place at nearly irrelevant in Indian independence. He was just a good showpiece for the post colonial Indians to calm them down, and forget about their colonial past.

Chan,

You said you support the HP law, but you think religion should be a choice. How is it that if you support a law forbiding conversion, that it gives religious freedom?

 

[aryan2007]

Aryan2007,

Gandhi is not irrelevant to some Indians. I've spoken to them, and they do get very peed off when Gandhi is not praised and blessed. They are some of the more verbally violent types I've encountered.

These are the "if you are a Pakistani and tell me Bal Thackeray is bad I will argue against you.. even though I can't stand Bal Thackeray but agreeing with a Pakistani against an Indian would make me unpatriotic.. " types.. Hell even I used to be that at a time...

Gandhi is a national icon.. no doubt but he is irrelevant.. nobody follows him.. and verbally attacking for his support is either because you are guilty or you can't stand Pakistanis.. any true Gandhian if you see will let you criticise him...

Gandhi didn't do much for Indian independence. It was World War II that freed the subcontinent. People like Bose were probably the second factor, the mutineering.

Akin to saying Jinnah didn't create Pakistan.. it was the Hindus who wanted to throw out all Muslims from India.. and Jinnah was their point man, a martyr for the cause of HIndus.. even Allama Iqbal's family converted to Hinduism from Islam and so that they can throw out all Muslims from Hindu Lands.. they were actually staunchly anti-Muslim.. and died for the cause of Hindus..
and Hindu leaders incited the Hindus and SIkhs to kill Muslim so that those who survived coming from Pakistan will never think of that place as Home ever again..

Gandhi I'd place at nearly irrelevant in Indian independence. He was just a good showpiece for the post colonial Indians to calm them down, and forget about their colonial past.

Gandhi united the nation of many ethnicities, He gave us nationalism, he did not fight for the cause of his religion or his caste or his people, He fought for all Indians/Hindustani/Bharatiya(incl Pakistanis and Bangladeshis)
He gave pride and self-esteem to the common Indian, he fought for all irresp of the adjectives.. He was the sheperd if all Indians were the flock...
It takes guts to not retort when you are being hit.. His philosophy of ahimsa created a strong sense of pride and self belief... He lived the ideals of not only Hinduism but also Sikhism, Islam and Christanity.. He fought hate with love.. violence with non violence..

He stood by his ideals and beliefs and was an inspiration to all, he proved Ahimsa could work.He united the nation and groomed its future leaders.His teachings have moulded the very fabric of our nation, our constitution, the way our country functions...

why did African nations not get freedom even after WW2?? why are even the most uniform countries still after decades of independence in danger of being failed states??

Do you think a land so diverse as ours, with such a massive population, with so many problems would become such a united & generally peaceful country, the 3rd richest in the world(by PPP) and a quasi superpower,...

Hope no one finds this too offensive but it is Akin to saying the Prophet was irrelavant in propagating the religion of Islam.. it was his followers who spread it.,, he just served as an example, a guide and a messenger of knowledge... but I consider if prophet wasn't there could Islam have spread??


If you want I can post a brief outline of Indian Independence Movement.. and highlight Gandhi's role.. as I said.. Gandhi was responsible for us getting freedom but people have forgotten him...
-----------------

You said you support the HP law, but you think religion should be a choice. How is it that if you support a law forbiding conversion, that it gives religious freedom?

religious conversion should stem from internal motivations and desirably spiritual motives not by brainwashing and lure of temporal gains...


Muslim/Christian Missionaries often promise jobs etc. to poor folks and when the missionaries gets money from the bible belt.. with which they sustain their new converts or they keep the money and fire these guys and let them fend for themselves..


Many Bihari Labourers convert to Sikhism while working in Punjab to get more pay or respect but nobody respects them as their reasons for conversions are from the ideals of Sikhism...


These are the kinds of conversions which must stop... active proselytizing by anyone is against secularism... and one should practice one's religion without needless disturbance ...


PSeath for apostasy should be made illegal as a practice in India.. as well..