Dubai Airshow 2011

[Mani2020]

blk 2 for now will have rd-93, ws-13 needs more time to fit in JFT but i believe it eventually will be be fitted.

Then what will be the benefit of fitting WS-13 if its going to arrive on the scene too late. 50 thunders are stated to be from block-1 configuration after then block-2 will start to roll out , suppose the first 2 squadrons of block-2 house RD-93 engine...it then makes to the total thunder with rd-93 engine to be somewhat in the range of 85 aircrafts ....~As 25% cost of total aircraft belongs to the engine...means not only throwing 25% the cost incurred on rd-93 but also the expenses incurred on buying ws-13 to swap the engines from these 85 planes ...that makes it too expensive deal that too for a cash strapped country....

And suppose even if they don't replace the rd-93 engine from initial 85 aircrafts and go with ws-13 from the 86th aircraft that means two different engines for same aircraft adding to cost of maintainance and headache means deviating from the original goal that was....to be cheap,effective and easy to maintain ....also what about the rest of RD-93 that were ordered from Russia through China?

The only thing we can do with these RD-93 is to house them on exporting aircrafts but that only for the new ones that came from russia and still haven't found a place in any thunder...what about the rest 85 engines that will be used on initial thunders...will any country agree to buy used ones ....knowing the reduction in their life-time and overhaul time...even if they come at cheap price


The solution can be modify the current RD-93 engines to increase their thrust ....Recently Pakistan-Russia relations are taking a good turn so why not utilize this change in tide to your benefit .....and even if Russia doesn't allow so use Chinese influence or go to Ukraine for help

 

[Qasibr]

@Mani2020

Fleet-capability seems to be a very high priority for the PAF rightnow, they're focusing on building their JF17 numbers up. You should read AFM's ~20 page suplement on the JF17, PAF officers talked about the WS-13A engine being ready within five years(one officer said it could even be within 2), and they also talked about not letting anything, lack of avionics from an European vendor or *anything*, slow the project down, saying these capabilities could be added later on.

While China has made huge strides in every area pretty-much, turbofans is still one area that many say is a little "rough". China says they don't have problems manufacturing turbofans anymore, but building turbofans *in numbers* while maintaining a level of quality is proving difficult. I don't think we should induct the WS-13A if it hasn't matured and isn't ready yet, as it can cause huge problems on a single-engine jet.

Western engines tend to have much longer lives, I'm not sure if JF17's airframe life comes close to F-16's 8000 flight-hours, but nevertheless these engines may need to be replaced sometime during the aircraft's service-life. The RD-93's reported MBTO(Mean Time Between Overall) is 600 hours, unless I'm mistaken.

I do believe the RD-93 engine could be a huge problem especially when this aircraft participates in international tenders where Russian aircraft are also competing - the Russians would be reluctant to compete with the JF17 because in some areas it offers higher capability at a lesser price(like MiG-Sukhoi holding's Mikhail Pogosyan stated), and they could prevent sales by not selling the powerplant. For now though, for our own JF17 squadrons, I do think the PAF is right to focus on building fleet-sizes as fast as possible.

With the west(USA/NATO) already crossing into our airspace, and incidents like the F/A-18s our air-defence was focused on when the US conducted the OBL-raid, a decent BVR-capable deterrent isn't a bad thing to have in sizable numbers. PAF's threat-assessment also takes into consideration India's SU-30s which are increasing in numbers(currently a little under 200 apparently). While at first, India seemed to be delaying the MMRCA deal, in some part, to prevent PAF access to avionics from vendors who lost(like the French which bowed out under Indian pressure), it was reported that India may not delay it's MMRCA deal, in light of information that PAF would be getting JF-17s faster than previously reported due to Chinese involvement in the 2nd batch.

PAF's apparent decision to not let anything hold back it's on-going JF-17 induction, is understandable.

 

[houshanghai]

Russian RD93 is the first option of JFT now and it is a very mature jet engine in the world.but chinese WS13 are also a must .bcz if Pakistan and Chinese have't a own engine for JFT project.then Pakstan and China will lack the bargaining chips with Russia at the bargaining table. In other words, you must consider not only the needs of today but also the needs of n beyond(ex,if Russian put an embargo of RD93 in war....)So there are a second or third good engine opion of JFT project will be very important. No doubt about it.WS13 become more and more mature.actually ,AVIC also made much of WS13 project now.

 

[regular]

Russian RD93 is the first option of JFT now and it is a very mature jet engine in the world.but chinese WS13 are also a must .bcz if Pakistan and Chinese have't a own engine for JFT project.then Pakstan and China will lack the bargaining chips with Russia at the bargaining table. In other words, you must consider not only the needs of today but also the needs of n beyond(ex,if Russian put an embargo of RD93 in war....)So there are a second or third good engine opion of JFT project will be very important. No doubt about it.WS13 become more and more mature.actually ,AVIC also made much of WS13 project now.

Yes! Excellent view...We must have WS13 be ready as soon as possible to be on safe side. In my opinion its best for us to have our own WS13 be utilized within our future aircrafts . Obviously we are going to see a war within a year or two most probably....

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan That is a very subjective and debatable opinion. Turkey for one, has never been colonized and proudly holds on to it's own language, most Turks don't even speak English, and they're further ahead of us in many areas. A large number of other countries like Germany, France, Sweden, China and Russia, have very advanced defence/aeronautics industries, and do not speak English. Brazil has a fairly advanced AAM missile program and their colonizer-imposed language is Spanish.

Sir,

You may make it subjective, objective or whatever----I am a first hand witness to this language issue. Hill AFB where the pak pilots went for the very first time in th e80's---I was going to school right next door---amongst the trainees, there were pilots from all nations----. the only thing kept pak pilots ahead of the class was the language ENGLISH----where everyone else struggled for a minimum of a 6 months to a year to learn the language----pak pilots were off and runnng---thus giving them a 6 mo to a year advantage of all foreigners---basically ending up on the same level as of the american flyers.

I also know first hand about the 1st batch of pilots that went to the u s to get the F86 sabre---one of them Wng Cmndr Jan Mahood was a father of one of my very good friend----the language spoken in our air force and millitary acdemies was english and only english---. Our air force and pilots did not have to worry about the time lapse.

When going to school here in the u s in the early 80's---I saw first hand hundreds of students---specially iranians and middle easterns strugglig extremely hard due to language barriers---where as the pakistani students were flying through---.

Turkey did not have a resource problem like pakistan and neither does it have an enemy 5 times its size sitting next door and when has turkey fought any major wars with any other nation.

Did you know that the last time our pilots went for training on the BLK 52, just recently---their skill levels and learning capabilities were not at par at the expected levels---they struggled---they had poor reviews----some of the american trainers of the 80's batch were disappoined with what they saw---the problem arose from the language barrier---lack of fluency in english.

Instead of taking it personal and making it a matter of ego---people need to understand and take learning and speaking of a foreign language as a weapons system----. If you consider a language as a FORCE MULTIPLIER to compliment your millitary and economy, you have narrowed the gap of disparity---that is all we have done over the years.

All the excellence that you talk of paf---had only one major resource---the lack of language barrier---you talked to them fluently in their lnguage---you conversed with them as they did with each other---so you understood the systems in the similiar manner as they---so you ended up operating the system just like they did----ain't life wonderful.

 

[BATMAN]

Smoke is gone! this may perhaps be surprising for Russinas as well!

though idea of painting, full tiger was a fail from first look.

Image below; may have been served the purpose much better.

 

[abaseen99]

JF-17 Thunder Fighter in Dubai Air Show 2011 - SINA English

 

[Donatello]

Sir,

You may make it subjective, objective or whatever----I am a first hand witness to this language issue. Hill AFB where the pak pilots went for the very first time in th e80's---I was going to school right next door---amongst the trainees, there were pilots from all nations----. the only thing kept pak pilots ahead of the class was the language ENGLISH----where everyone else struggled for a minimum of a 6 months to a year to learn the language----pak pilots were off and runnng---thus giving them a 6 mo to a year advantage of all foreigners---basically ending up on the same level as of the american flyers.

I also know first hand about the 1st batch of pilots that went to the u s to get the F86 sabre---one of them Wng Cmndr Jan Mahood was a father of one of my very good friend----the language spoken in our air force and millitary acdemies was english and only english---. Our air force and pilots did not have to worry about the time lapse.

When going to school here in the u s in the early 80's---I saw first hand hundreds of students---specially iranians and middle easterns strugglig extremely hard due to language barriers---where as the pakistani students were flying through---.

Turkey did not have a resource problem like pakistan and neither does it have an enemy 5 times its size sitting next door and when has turkey fought any major wars with any other nation.

Did you know that the last time our pilots went for training on the BLK 52, just recently---their skill levels and learning capabilities were not at par at the expected levels---they struggled---they had poor reviews----some of the american trainers of the 80's batch were disappoined with what they saw---the problem arose from the language barrier---lack of fluency in english.

Instead of taking it personal and making it a matter of ego---people need to understand and take learning and speaking of a foreign language as a weapons system----. If you consider a language as a FORCE MULTIPLIER to compliment your millitary and economy, you have narrowed the gap of disparity---that is all we have done over the years.

All the excellence that you talk of paf---had only one major resource---the lack of language barrier---you talked to them fluently in their lnguage---you conversed with them as they did with each other---so you understood the systems in the similiar manner as they---so you ended up operating the system just like they did----ain't life wonderful.

Very good Mastan jee,

I myself have seen this language barrier....it's not just people from middle-east, even our brothers from China, as they are always taught everything in their local language...foreign languages are not a big part of their education.

I can for example speak well in English, Urdu and Punjabi, and when you told this to Americans there, they would be astonished that i was tri-lingual when most of them weren't even bi-lingual.

If you go on the website of the FBI (USA) you see they are in high demand for Urdu, Arabic, Pashto speakers...for obvious reasons.

So yes, your language analysis is spot on.

 

[Mani2020]

@Mani2020

Fleet-capability seems to be a very high priority for the PAF rightnow, they're focusing on building their JF17 numbers up. You should read AFM's ~20 page suplement on the JF17, PAF officers talked about the WS-13A engine being ready within five years(one officer said it could even be within 2), and they also talked about not letting anything, lack of avionics from an European vendor or *anything*, slow the project down, saying these capabilities could be added later on.

While China has made huge strides in every area pretty-much, turbofans is still one area that many say is a little "rough". China says they don't have problems manufacturing turbofans anymore, but building turbofans *in numbers* while maintaining a level of quality is proving difficult. I don't think we should induct the WS-13A if it hasn't matured and isn't ready yet, as it can cause huge problems on a single-engine jet.

Western engines tend to have much longer lives, I'm not sure if JF17's airframe life comes close to F-16's 8000 flight-hours, but nevertheless these engines may need to be replaced sometime during the aircraft's service-life. The RD-93's reported MBTO(Mean Time Between Overall) is 600 hours, unless I'm mistaken.

I do believe the RD-93 engine could be a huge problem especially when this aircraft participates in international tenders where Russian aircraft are also competing - the Russians would be reluctant to compete with the JF17 because in some areas it offers higher capability at a lesser price(like MiG-Sukhoi holding's Mikhail Pogosyan stated), and they could prevent sales by not selling the powerplant. For now though, for our own JF17 squadrons, I do think the PAF is right to focus on building fleet-sizes as fast as possible.

With the west(USA/NATO) already crossing into our airspace, and incidents like the F/A-18s our air-defence was focused on when the US conducted the OBL-raid, a decent BVR-capable deterrent isn't a bad thing to have in sizable numbers. PAF's threat-assessment also takes into consideration India's SU-30s which are increasing in numbers(currently a little under 200 apparently). While at first, India seemed to be delaying the MMRCA deal, in some part, to prevent PAF access to avionics from vendors who lost(like the French which bowed out under Indian pressure), it was reported that India may not delay it's MMRCA deal, in light of information that PAF would be getting JF-17s faster than previously reported due to Chinese involvement in the 2nd batch.

PAF's apparent decision to not let anything hold back it's on-going JF-17 induction, is understandable.

Sorry to say..... but i didn't find anything in your post relevant to what i talked about in my post that you ended up quoting later... No offence but all i read from your post was a bits and patches of history and words that are revolving around everyone starting from Russia to NATO ...... Even i didnt get it whether you are supporting what i said or are going against it....

All i read was "PAF not holding back" ....if you would have read my post i was replying to nabil's post in which he said that WS-13 will find its place later on and not immediately on block-2s ....and i was just going with the dis-advantages of switching to a newer engine and what could PAF possibly do to cope it up.....i never ever for a second said in my post that PAF should have held it up and waited for the ws-13 or they shouldnt have used rd-93 on the first place.... my post was simple

I wonder from where this NATO.US,india and Su-30s came up from ....looks like a whole jf-17 history is summed up in one post of yours

Again no offence

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Smoke is gone! this may perhaps be surprising for Russinas as well!

though idea of painting, full tiger was a fail from first look.

Image below; may have been served the purpose much better.

I like the BLACK PANTHER (it is not a tiger) on the tail. It looks fabulous and perfect for JF-17

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Obviously we are going to see a war within a year or two most probably....

who told you that?
why are you making such statement?

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Russian RD93 is the first option of JFT now and it is a very mature jet engine in the world.but chinese WS13 are also a must .bcz if Pakistan and Chinese have't a own engine for JFT project.then Pakstan and China will lack the bargaining chips with Russia at the bargaining table. In other words, you must consider not only the needs of today but also the needs of n beyond(ex,if Russian put an embargo of RD93 in war....)So there are a second or third good engine opion of JFT project will be very important. No doubt about it.WS13 become more and more mature.actually ,AVIC also made much of WS13 project now.

We will see JF-17 with WS-13 by the next year, perhaps it is a Block II.

 

[BATMAN]

Looking at the RD-93 order volume, I suspect PAF will stick to RD-93 while PLAF versions will be equipped with WS-13.

 

[Qasibr]

@Mani2020 If you read carefully, the point I'm trying to make was that waiting for the WS-13 does not seem to make sense, for many reasons that exist due to Pakistan's current situation(which I tried to elaborate upon), PAF seems to be focusing on building it's JF-17 fleet-size as rapidly as possible.

You were talking about sticking with RD-93 and improving it, and another point in this, is that this engine might start to become a bone of contention with Russia. Especially if JF-17 starts competing in international tenders in Russia's traditional markets, where Russia's own aircraft are competing as well. Already there's noise coming out from senior Russian officials to that effect, like Mikhail Pogosyan saying they should block RD-93 sales because it'd be hard for their MiG-29 to compete with this bird.

 

[regular]

who told you that?
why are you making such statement?

cuz smart pplz are alwayz ready for the worst.....