DRDO' s AWACS programme may take a hit

[Bull]

Forget it man... That's a topic that'll never come up because saying anything against DRDO is swing at the Indian pride.

Of course DRDO shouldn't be scrapped out. It should be given more scientific freedom, remove all the bureaucracy. Quit the hype that often goes with DRDO projects and start making simplistic stuff first. Almost all DRDO projects are for competing against western products. Over ambition. They want to put everything into it, and everything never gets done. Small is big.

If DRDO needs to perform then it should be ready to work with the client.

 

[Awesome]

You know when I was working for a couple of Indian IT guys, all of us had big issues with the management. There'd always be some tech consultant who'd come up with a new requirement which would look all fancy and cool and would throw off the completion date of our end product.

Indian management is ready to do that. I've worked with Americans and Pakistanis who have one goal in mind. Meet the dates. My Indian bosses (for whom I worked a lot more) were clueless about the importance of this.

Also my time in the media. I wrote for several publications. One of them had this Indian editor who'd let our departments writers slack off so much. You do an interview today, and it'd be getting published 3-4 days later because of everyone's laziness.

Trust me editors need to get the story in, then n there.

Indians have been workhorses for so long that they just don't give much importance to this aspect. "Delays are okay", that's the message many of them portray. They are all doing good for now since everybody has the backup of big bucks. It won't last forever.

 

[vnomad]

I take your point. However it seems an expensive
As for the Arjun and LCA I would ask simply, where are they then? 30 and 21 years respectively I believe?

Arjun is in service. Inductions are proceeding. The LCA is due to start induction by 2009-10. Pre-production types of the LCA (not prototypes) are almost ready.

 

[Neo]

Arjun is in service. Inductions are proceeding. The LCA is due to start induction by 2009-10. Pre-production types of the LCA (not prototypes) are almost ready.

Arjun is being pushed by politicians for patriotic reasons but its heavily rejected by the IA.
Read what OoE and Highsea have written about the Arjun on other fora.
LCA is still waiting for the Kaveri which again is nowhere near completion.
You expect it to be ready by 2009?

 

[Neo]

DRDOs AWACS Programme In Jeopardy As Air Force Alters Requirements Mid Way

According to 'Defense News' the Indian Air Force is said to have modified the specifications for the indigenous airborne early warning and control system. These include changes in the radar requirements and other equipment, increasing the payload.

The Air Force has recommended the use of a larger Boeing or Airbus based platform rather than Embraer and Gulf Stream planes shortlisted for the program by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

DRDO is now seeking additional funding for this project from the Ministry of Defence as a shift to the Boeing/Airbus platform will result in a 40-45% price increase (approximately $210-220 million).

The weight of the planned AWACS has gone from about 4,500 kilograms to more than 7,000 kilograms to meet the revised Air
Force requirements. The program is now said to be on hold till the MOD clearance for additional funds is sought.

Domestic companies working with the DRDO center on the AWACS project include Bharat Electronics, the Defence Avionics Research Establishment, and the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment, all in Bangalore.

India in 2004 inked a $1.1 billion deal to have Israeli Phalcon radars mounted on three Russian-built Il-76 aircraft to be used as AWACS. The delivery of the aircraft will begin in mid-2007.
India began an urgent search for an AWACS after the DRDO-developed mini-AWACS, aboard an HS-748 Avro aircraft, crashed during testing in 1999.

The DRDO scientist said the current AWACS project will take at least another 10 years to complete if the Air Force freezes the design of the platform and the payload of the AWACS. But Air Force officials in private said they would rather get an imported AWACS than wait for the DRDO to develop one.

This is not the first time the Indian Armed Forces have changed specifications and requirements mid-way through the project; and the frequency with which this has happened has sabotaged the progress of indigenous programs in the past.

Analysts believe that their is a growing disconnect between participants in the entire mechanism and the Armed Forces aren't solely to blame as they themselves are undergoing a critical modernization drive.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-3294

 

[Bull]

A case where the IAF doesnt know what it wants and keeps on modifying its requirements. Even the Army could be clubbed with them.

It looks like that only the Navy has learned how to work with DRDO.

 

[joey]

Neo I would wait till defexpo to see how true this information is, if this is true another case of how IAF slices its home industry

DRDO has already developed 4th generation IFF with bird slicer antennae, full fledged EW payloads, AESA TR/RX modules and what not...


but still the turd vivek puts a ncie twist in his tale,

The DRDO scientist said the current AWACS project will take at least another 10 years to complete if the Air Force freezes the design of the platform and the payload of the AWACS. But Air Force officials in private said they would rather get an imported AWACS than wait for the DRDO to develop one.

Doesnt he knows DRDO peoples are not allowed to speak in media unless in a press conference and he knew what air force officials in private says oh wow

 

[BATMAN]

DRDO' s AWACS programme may take a hit with mid-course change in IAF requirements
11 June 2007
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/June/2007/20070611_drdo.htm

New Delhi: Unsubstantiated reports, now emerging in the media, would suggest that the Indian Air Force (IAF) might have modified the specifications for the indigenous airborne early warning and control system (AWACS), including the radar and related equipment, in an effort to increase the payload. The mid-course change would appear to have left the country's premier defence laboratory set up, the defence research and development organization (DRDO) scrambling to organize finances for the acquisition of a larger aerial platform.

According to reports, the IAF has recommended the use of a larger Boeing or Airbus-based platform, rather than the Embraer and Gulf Stream planes that had earlier been short-listed for the programme by the DRDO. The shift to a larger platform, from a mid-sized one of the Embraer variety, pushes costs up by an additional 40-45%, and this apparently has forced DRDO to seek additional funds.

Domestic companies and laboratories currently working with the DRDO on the AWACS project include Bharat Electronics Ltd, the Defence Avionics Research Establishment, and the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment.

As part of a $1.1 billion deal, signed in 2004, Israel is to supply three Phalcon AWACS systems to India with its radar and other systems mounted on three Russian-built Il-76 aircraft. The first of these aircraft are due for delivery from mid-2007.

Reports would also suggest that the current AWACS project would, very likely, take another decade to complete, provided the design, specifications, as well as the platform are now frozen by the IAF.

While some sources point fingers at the defence services for changing specifications mid-way too often, others point to the massive technology churn which the global arms industry is currently experiencing and argue that such mid-course changes cannot be helped.

 

[joey]

okay domain B is a good source on Aerospace but this is a copy of DID article, if this is true news it is heartening I'd wait for some official mod report.

And it wont take 10 years thats some serious bull, all thing for it has been developed.

The last para is another joke, change in global industry? why the hell IAF went with ERJ 145 in the first place!!!

Refer to this pdf to understand the extreme high complexity in developing a platform AWACS compatible!!!

http://www.aeroindiaseminar.com/pdf_technicalpaper/Christopher.pdf

It discusses on,
"Optimisation of the Airborne Early Warning and Control System Integration"

 

[BATMAN]

xxx self edited xxx
Sorry for the inconvinience.

 

[Screaming Skull]

The DRDO has been openly challenging IA for field trials of the Arjun vs T-90S since ages. Who do u think is the biggest gainer if Arjun does nt make it. It s Russia n its defence agencies. These guys have bribed the top guys of the IA n MOD responsible for MBT purchases. Else, how do u explain the purchase of T-90 even without field trials with comparable western MBTs let alone Arjun.

As far as the delays with Arjun n LCA are considered, one must understand that these systems are vastly superior to their initial design requirements. It s like starting with a T-72 n finally delivering a T-90 equivalent bypassing all the intermediate designs but keeping the project name same. Similarly, with LCA it s like starting off with a Mig-21 n finally delivering a Mig-29 equivalent (I just mean in terms of tech gap n not the comparability of LCA with Mig-29).

If one takes into account the time taken to develop a T-90 from base versions, I think DRDO has done much better than the Russians in developing the Arjun in 30 yrs with the funding allocated. Also, considering the fact that it was DRDO s first experience in developing MBT technology. Just wait for the field trials n u l see (T-90s could be another Bofors in the making. Dat s y everyone s hush hush bout it).

This is really not national pride that s doing the talking but there s lot more to defence purchases in India that meet the eye. There s so much vested interest frm all quarters that u really cant take things at face value. The media reporting these issues is not remotely qualified to speak abt these systems. They are accustomed to DRDO bashing on the basis of some Auditor general's official report that present plane facts. These are meant for guys who can actually make sense out of them n not the very simplistic media that compares the cost effectiveness of high tech sys like tomatoes n onions.

Please note one more thing, the fact that every one in the world knows about the status of these projects s bcoz of the high level of transparency in most defence projects. The public audit reports of most of DRDO projects are made public in India. Unfortunately, ppl dont realize that defence projects in China and even Pakistan are opaque. No one will know how much was spent on a Type-xyz of china or when an Al-Khalid was started (with no offence meant). These will just surface out of nowhere some day. None the wiser regarding the project duration or RnD cost etc.

Well these are just small pitfalls of democracy where one needs to atleast reveal to the tax payer how his money is being spent (whether he has any control over it is another ques!).

 

[nitesh]

You know when I was working for a couple of Indian IT guys, all of us had big issues with the management. There'd always be some tech consultant who'd come up with a new requirement which would look all fancy and cool and would throw off the completion date of our end product.

Indian management is ready to do that. I've worked with Americans and Pakistanis who have one goal in mind. Meet the dates. My Indian bosses (for whom I worked a lot more) were clueless about the importance of this.

Also my time in the media. I wrote for several publications. One of them had this Indian editor who'd let our departments writers slack off so much. You do an interview today, and it'd be getting published 3-4 days later because of everyone's laziness.

Trust me editors need to get the story in, then n there.

Indians have been workhorses for so long that they just don't give much importance to this aspect. "Delays are okay", that's the message many of them portray. They are all doing good for now since everybody has the backup of big bucks. It won't last forever.

What is this asim? I work in the same industry (I am a telecom guy most of IT companies as my customer). Consultants are invited depending on the project not that it is a phenomena. I don't know how you can shoot such a statement.

You have written what you feel well world does not thinks like you.

 

[nitesh]

Arjun is being pushed by politicians for patriotic reasons but its heavily rejected by the IA.
Read what OoE and Highsea have written about the Arjun on other fora.
LCA is still waiting for the Kaveri which again is nowhere near completion.
You expect it to be ready by 2009?

Well check the Arjun thread the things are looking different now Neo.

Regarding LCA it has been clarified n number of times and still you are coming with the same argument

LCA is not waiting for kaveri. The current batch is with GE404IN20 engine next batch will be with whatever engine is selected (GE414/EJ) Kaveri is getting readied for trials with LCA provided it's trails in Russia are successful.

The first batch is supposed to be operational by late 2010.

 

[tyagi]

Well check the Arjun thread the things are looking different now Neo.

Regarding LCA it has been clarified n number of times and still you are coming with the same argument

LCA is not waiting for kaveri. The current batch is with GE404IN20 engine next batch will be with whatever engine is selected (GE414/EJ) Kaveri is getting readied for trials with LCA provided it's trails in Russia are successful.

The first batch is supposed to be operational by late 2010.

dude check the date when he posted it .

and Mr skull why r u posting t90 news in awacs thread .and in the thread in which no one has posted in more than 2 years

 

[Screaming Skull]

was just tryin to address Mr. Neo's concern about DRDO not finishin Arjun in time. Anyway did nt notice that the thread was 2 yrs old. sorry for that Mr. Tyagi.