DRDO lab, Navy to dev Kaveri marine engine

[RPK]

DRDO lab, Navy to dev Kaveri marine engine IDRW.ORG

Gas Turbine Research Establishment is looking to develop a marine version of Kaveri engine, originally intended to power India’s indigenous fighter jet Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, in partnership with the Navy.

“We are already looking at Kaveri Marine project of which Indian Navy is quite supportive and they are going to be our working partners including financial participation”, Director of GTRE, a lab under Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), T Mohana Rao, told PTI here.
Using the core of the Kaveri engine, GTRE plans to add low-pressure compressor and turbine as a gas generator to generate shaft power for maritime applications.

Bangalore-based GTRE is also looking at developing small gas turbine engines for unmanned aircraft.

“There are lots of other projects in the offing. We need to look at them in a very pragmatic way”, Rao said. “We (GTRE) are capable of taking up any gas turbine-related design and development activity for the country”.

Meanwhile, the Kaveri engine meant for Tejas is currently undergoing altitude tests in Russia, an exercise expected to last three to four weeks.

“Once that’s in good shape and a good success, we will be using one more engine for flying test bed trials”, he said.

Meanwhile, France-based Snecma which had been identified as a joint venture partner of GTRE for further development of the Kaveri engine for LCA, is yet to join the programme.

 

[Tejas-MkII]

I am very much sure this version of kaveri engine will develope much faster than earlier one..

point to be noted..

Meanwhile, France-based Snecma which had been identified as a joint venture partner of GTRE for further development of the Kaveri engine for LCA, is yet to join the programme.

why these french are still yet to join...

probably MMRCA...

 

[ironman]

 

[deep.ocean]

NOT AGAIN DRDO..
This organization is complete failure.. DRDO has long list of failures.. Its time to bring private companies in defe sectors..

 

[indiatech]

Some day, a mass of common people would have to walk in to some of the sick DRDO labs and force them to shut down unless they produce something. What an waste of taxpayers money since decades.

 

[ironman]

^^... DRDO people are not magicians, be it aircraft, tank or missile needs step by step development process which take time. Remind you that these people started journey from absolute zero.

 

[Screaming Skull]

NOT AGAIN DRDO..
This organization is complete failure.. DRDO has long list of failures.. Its time to bring private companies in defe sectors..

Some day, a mass of common people would have to walk in to some of the sick DRDO labs and force them to shut down unless they produce something. What an waste of taxpayers money since decades.

Hi,

I wonder on what facts are you guys basing you opinions on? DRDO is one large research lab whose purpose is to develop defence and related technologies for the country. It is not meant to be a profitable organization and hence its financial auditing is not done – if done, the details are not released for public consumption. However, I remember once during BJP government’s rule in the early years of this decade, the then defence minister George Fernandes motioned that for every rupee spent by the govt on DRDO, it returns Rs. 1.5 to the govt. – meaning the RoI is almost 50%. This was reported in the media then but somehow I am not able to find that report now.

Anyway, I have the MoD’s Annual Report for the financial year 2008-2009. Here are the revenue figures for the Indian DPSUs.

Most of these DPSUs are completely dependent on technology provided DRDO for their products. These companies are merely production units with negligible R&D of their own. The ordinance factory board has no R&D at all. BEL, HAL and other biggies in the list spend miniscule amounts on R&D and employ only a handful of qualified engineers and scientists for R&D. DRDO is their life line and has been for a very long time. Also, note that I have not included the returns from strategic systems like ballistic missiles and other technologies under production. Once, major national projects like LCA, IAC etc. are ready, the revenue figures are gonna shoot up. Gains will be achieved in a staggered manner over a period of time. Even from the figures that I have provided above, you can observe that the total revenue from these companies has shot up by over 23% in just 2 years.

So, now do you admit that DRDO is not a black hole for taxpayers’ money afterall?

Criticism is not a bad thing but I believe it has to be nuanced and based on solid facts. I too agree that DRDO is not managed efficiently. But it is after all a govt. dept. – not very different from Indian Post, Indian Railways etc. in terms of function. There are inherent restraints in all govt. dept. and DRDO is no different. A complete overhaul of the system is required to make it more efficient. That said it doesn’t mean that the scientists and engineers working there are any less competent than their peers in other parts of the world. In fact they are amongst the best in the country. The acceptance rate in DRDO is probably the lowest in the country after ISRO. Just recently, I am told that there was a vacancy for about 300 engineers and over 100,000 applied. Many of my batch mates from IIT-B could not clear the DRDO entrance test and interviews back then when they applied. What does that tell you about the competition at the entrance stage? Even after getting in, every scientist’s performance is scored by his superior on a scale of 100. Only, if one manages to score at least 85 consistently over a period of 4 years will he even be considered for an interview call from the promotions and appraisals committee. I hear that the standards have been further raised and now every scientist is expected to publish a minimum number of papers in international peer reviewed journals before he can be considered for promotions.

Now coming back to the question of privatization, I have a few counter questions for you guys. Pray tell me-

How many world class automobile engines has the Indian private sector produced?

How many world class cars and bikes have they produced which can even come anywhere close to the BMWs and Ferraris?

How many software PRODUCTS does Infosys, Wipro, TCS have?

What products does Reliance have? They import crude, refine it with imported machinery and supply to buyers within and outside the country.

Can you name any product of significance developed by the private sector that can compete with their peers in the global market?

Then on what basis sirs, do you advocate privatization of DRDO? Can the private sector produce a Kaveri engine before GTRE, when they are still struggling to produce an auto engine of global standards?

Hence, this comparison between the private sector and DRDO is fallacious and does not present an accurate picture.

 

[gogbot]

Couldn't have said it better my self Skull

Thanks for setting the facts straight for those to ignorant to bother

 

[NSG_BlackCats]

NOT AGAIN DRDO..
This organization is complete failure.. DRDO has long list of failures.. Its time to bring private companies in defe sectors..

Some day, a mass of common people would have to walk in to some of the sick DRDO labs and force them to shut down unless they produce something. What an waste of taxpayers money since decades.

Like yellow journalism of some Indian Media blind criticism seems to be the order of the day. I see a lot of Indian does not know the facts and starts criticizing DRDO. Foreign national can say whatever they want to say about DRDO who cares about them. These same foreign nationals were critical about ISRO few decades back. But now major aerospace industries are having partnership with ISRO.

I agree DRDO has its own share of failure and its need to show more professionalism. But let me say there is no company in India that can purchase all the lab and facilities of DRDO. You have to understand LCA (Tejas), building Jet Engine is not that easy. We are doing it for the first time. So there are bound to be some setbacks. Regarding Ballistic missile the failure average all over the word is 40%. So DRDO is trying its best with limited resource. Nobody will give India the technology to develop a ballistic missile. We have to do it on our own.

Now there are some Public Partnership joint venture between DRDO and many private Indian companies. But DRDO need to be more accountable. My request to Indian member is criticize DRDO but constructively.

 

[gogbot]

Can you name any product of significance developed by the private sector that can compete with their peers in the global market?

Then on what basis sirs, do you advocate privatization of DRDO? Can the private sector produce a Kaveri engine before GTRE, when they are still struggling to produce an auto engine of global standards?

Hence, this comparison between the private sector and DRDO is fallacious and does not present an accurate picture.

Ironically, I heard that the government makes available technology developed by the DRDO for the defense departments of certain companies. So they can start out with certain tech already available.

However privatizing is necessary. So as to boost competitiveness
Currently if India wants something they have to go with what ever DRDO given them. Private companies can compete against each other to produce a prototype that best serves India's needs

But before that the Private sector needs to get its feet wet in some actual R&D. On that note hasn't the DRDO started to Outsource some of its work to Private companies now.
And the DPP is also a step in the right direction.

All in all we are actually doing things right for a change, if we just gave everything to the Private sector they would neither be ready or capable.

More competition equals greater efficiency.

 

[deckingraj]

Hence, this comparison between the private sector and DRDO is fallacious and does not present an accurate picture.

Not that i am supporting any of the comments against DRDO but could not help sharing my thoughts on it...I have lot of respect for our scientists working in DRDO and by no means believe that private sector can provide better scientists than what we have.. In fact i myself have worked for 6 months in BDS lab of DRDO during my engg. training semester and have seen how qualified people are there....I was fascinated by study the shockwaves eminating from explosives and how to save our defence personnels from the impact etc etc....

However i guess we all will agree that private sector will bring in the competative attitude which is lacking to some extent in DRDO...In other words better management of projects....On the other hand private sector will be benefitted by immense knowledge and experience that DRDO has which will in turn will open gates for more R&D and ultimately better finished products...So the way i see is something like JV between DRDO and private sector which to me is the need of the hour and it will prove to be a win-win situation for both the respective sectors and India....

 

[Hulk]

I agree DRDO has done a good job, we got independence in 1947 then earlier years we had focus on food and industrilization. We have started focusing on defence only in last 2 decades. I think we are reaching a level were we will grow in maturity. I also feel Private sector is required and I think we are bringing it in our fold.

 

[rubyjackass]

Hi,

I wonder on what facts are you guys basing you opinions on? DRDO is one large research lab whose purpose is to develop defence and related technologies for the country. It is not meant to be a profitable organization and hence its financial auditing is not done – if done, the details are not released for public consumption. However, I remember once during BJP government’s rule in the early years of this decade, the then defence minister George Fernandes motioned that for every rupee spent by the govt on DRDO, it returns Rs. 1.5 to the govt. – meaning the RoI is almost 50%. This was reported in the media then but somehow I am not able to find that report now.

... blah blah reports...

I think you have missed the point of allegations against DRDO. I agree that DRDO does help saev money because we buy technology from them instead of importing at a higher price. Bu the question is 'Is this tech good enough?'. I will return to the question a little later. The ROI mentioned is not based on hard facts. Just a word of mouth assessment by a minister. Even if there is so much ROI in the form of saving foreign exchange, the real question is what I asked above.

Most of these DPSUs are completely dependent on technology provided DRDO for their products. These companies are merely production units with negligible R&D of their own. The ordinance factory board has no R&D at all. BEL, HAL and other biggies in the list spend miniscule amounts on R&D and employ only a handful of qualified engineers and scientists for R&D. DRDO is their life line and has been for a very long time. Also, note that I have not included the returns from strategic systems like ballistic missiles and other technologies under production. Once, major national projects like LCA, IAC etc. are ready, the revenue figures are gonna shoot up. Gains will be achieved in a staggered manner over a period of time. Even from the figures that I have provided above, you can observe that the total revenue from these companies has shot up by over 23% in just 2 years.

So, now do you admit that DRDO is not a black hole for taxpayers’ money afterall?

What you have mentioned is just a list yet more PSUs that claim to put India on the world tech map. All of them claim to do world class research for producing or enhancing high quality techs. You are just supporting DRDO at the cost of these others. In my view all these produce monkey products with an occasional gem of technology. So no need to discredit others like HAL.
I don't give a **** for the revenue figures because they mean nothing. Given maps of techs from 'joint co-ops' and 'tech transfers', any company with related experience can start business give some assurances. You have conveniently ignored how much the revenues of the domestic industry would have reached if private companies were allowed into it.
DRDO is indeed a black hole for taxpayers money. The purpose it was supposed serve is new world class techs. How much of that did it achieve? From your POV it is debatable. I would just look at the amount of exports they could make. If your defence is that they tried to export but failed then it says a lot about how the importers liked them. If you say that DRDO does not try to export, it shows how much confidence they have in their products. If you want to play the national security secret angle for the products, I will give you the benifit of doubt with the comments, 'Do you think other countries dont have better exporters?'.
I am not expecting wonders from DRDO. I am just concerned that it does not deliver what it promised saying they are within its reach. I dont want to pain myself and you with the list of failures wrt missile or tank development of DRDO.

Criticism is not a bad thing but I believe it has to be nuanced and based on solid facts. I too agree that DRDO is not managed efficiently. But it is after all a govt. dept. – not very different from Indian Post, Indian Railways etc. in terms of function. There are inherent restraints in all govt. dept. and DRDO is no different. A complete overhaul of the system is required to make it more efficient. That said it doesn’t mean that the scientists and engineers working there are any less competent than their peers in other parts of the world. In fact they are amongst the best in the country. The acceptance rate in DRDO is probably the lowest in the country after ISRO. Just recently, I am told that there was a vacancy for about 300 engineers and over 100,000 applied. Many of my batch mates from IIT-B could not clear the DRDO entrance test and interviews back then when they applied. What does that tell you about the competition at the entrance stage? Even after getting in, every scientist’s performance is scored by his superior on a scale of 100. Only, if one manages to score at least 85 consistently over a period of 4 years will he even be considered for an interview call from the promotions and appraisals committee. I hear that the standards have been further raised and now every scientist is expected to publish a minimum number of papers in international peer reviewed journals before he can be considered for promotions.

Exactly why we should not depend entirely on a government agency for defence requirements. WHen you yourself admit that govt units are lethargic why not give up on DRDO or make way for its reform to get rid of this lethargy? Remember this is a matter of country's defence. Imagine how it would sound if a retaliatory missile India launched(no first use) failed? Are you going to take the explanation of the DRDO director that it failed because of so-and-so slly reason? after decades of devlopment and millions of rupees?
THis is something where if someone is not able to do things efficiently you have to find someone else, if you want to be secure that is.
I forgive Indian post for beinng crappy even Indian Railway to some extent. But I cannot live without concern when the defence establishments tell me tales of 'technical problems' for years. The worst part is I loose sleep over the low grade products that would have entered our defence despite knowledge of their unsatisfactory preformance. I would rather stock good stuff for more money from abroad.

Now coming back to the question of privatization, I have a few counter questions for you guys. Pray tell me-

How many world class automobile engines has the Indian private sector produced?

THey did not because they had better ways to get quicker profits. And they were never had to make their own engines. If they were put in such a situation I bet they would have made one.

How many world class cars and bikes have they produced which can even come anywhere close to the BMWs and Ferraris?

They would have made them if they found enough market.

How many software PRODUCTS does Infosys, Wipro, TCS have?

What products does Reliance have? They import crude, refine it with imported machinery and supply to buyers within and outside the country.

THese companies never had to make anything new. SO they did not.
How many years did Nano, from concept to unit take?

Can you name any product of significance developed by the private sector that can compete with their peers in the global market?

There are many. And many more that you wont see because they were done as a part of MNC.

Then on what basis sirs, do you advocate privatization of DRDO? Can the private sector produce a Kaveri engine before GTRE, when they are still struggling to produce an auto engine of global standards?

Hence, this comparison between the private sector and DRDO is fallacious and does not present an accurate picture.

Now you are expecting the private sector to produce something that they see as non-profitable. If they see profit in something they would definitely do it.



I wish my fears about DRDO are just fears. But we need a zero tolerance with approach with our defence inventory.

 

[indiatech]

This is where we lack. It is not about ignorance. It is about attitude.

We have a habit of carrying on with sick units rather than fixing them or making workarounds. Eventually after a decade there will be private companies building major defence contracts , but not now.
We will still taste some more DRDO. After 2 decades, they still will be working on the Kaveri.

This is a capable organization but lacks leadership, focus and management. There is no dirth of resource.

A lot of countries had started from zero. it is not only DRDO. But DRDO has not delivered. So rather than praising them first their delivery model needs to be fixed. Their salary, pension benefits needs to be based on their performance and achievements.

There will be plenty of chances to praise them after they starts achieving.

 

[indiatech]

Hi,

I wonder on what facts are you guys basing you opinions on? DRDO is one large research lab whose purpose is to develop defence and related technologies for the country. It is not meant to be a profitable organization and hence its financial auditing is not done – if done, the details are not released for public consumption.

However, I remember once during BJP government’s rule in the early years of this decade, the then defence minister George Fernandes motioned that for every rupee spent by the govt on DRDO, it returns Rs. 1.5 to the govt. – meaning the RoI is almost 50%. This was reported in the media then but somehow I am not able to find that report now.

I dont understand this. We want to export BrahMos, make money make DRDO a seld sustainable organization. Who doesn't want that. Who actually in todays world would not like it to make money for the country rather than being a black hole.

George Fernandez? Sorry but he is not trustworthy. He turned out to be corrupted. Rather than talking about BEL and HAL who are not only catering to defence industry but supplies a major chunk of the non defence , can we talk about GTRE, CVRDE, BDL etc.