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Dragon's Teeth

"Get your donkeys to stop braying about the 'ISI and Pakistan Army involved in terrorism' without evidence..."

We've got it from your newspapers, defense minister, kidnapped NYT reporters, and even you and your "inaction". That's just available open source. God only knows what our leaders actually know about your collusion with the taliban but we can be assured that it goes into far greater depth.

You make war upon us with your proxies and you provide them with sanctuary for eight years. Why we permit such can only be because we need your supply routes. It, however, seems pointless to supply endlessly a war that can't be won so long as you, of all nations, also fuel its fires.

We should withdraw and acknowledge defeat at the hands of your strategy or find new supply routes and make open war upon Pakistan. Those are the only two correct solutions. Anything else is a procrastinating half-measure designed to lead nowhere nor do anything but waste resources, effort, time, and blood.

Thanks.:usflag:

Then go ahead and declare war against Pakistan or get out. At the very least it will spare us all from the constant whining and "do more" lectures from the US. :coffee:
 
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"I think if there was no Pakistan , I doubt US armies would have any supplies to run the war on terror..."

You may be correct. 28million afghans must grow their own food or produce their own products. All else they use must compete with military supplies for valuable cubic footage of transportation space. Our army can fight a war with a leaner supply. So too our allies but what kind of war and to what purpose?

The insurgency wins so long as they remain a force in being. Sanctuary secures the insurgency from defeat. Either that condition changes or we accept that all the supplies in the world to all the troops in the world doesn't matter. There can be no stabilization in the face of an externally-directed insurgency.

The only way that condition can change is if Pakistan removes the sanctuaries or America does so. If America does so and Pakistan's military interferes, there will unquestionably be an open state of war or as close to one as both can imagine.

These are the decisions to which we will all soon be required to make.

Thanks:usflag:.
 
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Becareful you keep supporting TERRORISM.May lead to voilent consequences in punjab naga mesoram or assam.



Again and Again, you r just keep writing here and doing nothing.


time has changed and now RAW is getting more power than ISI. :sniper:

before it was your ISI creating problems in Kashmir, no it's RAW turn. :devil:
 
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Then go ahead and declare war against Pakistan or get out. At the very least it will spare us all from the constant whining and "do more" lectures from the US. :coffee:

Hi,

Please don't ask for war against the u s---not even under the worst case scenario---just because you loose your cool against the poster doesn't mean that we need to go to war.

Learn to adapt and learn to play the game.
 
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"...we need to go to war."

Slides is closer to the truth, however, than you care to admit. As matters are currently constituted, sanctuary can't be tolerated in order to satisfy the U.N. mandate.

It must either be given up as an impossible task or sanctuary must be removed. Either Pakistan or America will likely make that effort. If Pakistan does, all the well if a good-faith effort and on-going. If Pakistan doesn't and America does all the good so long as Pakistan doesn't interfere on behalf of the taliban.

If interfered by Pakistan, it would quite likely mean war if it entails Pakistani and American combat troops. More than the clash itself, such interference would constitute direct reinforcement to an American enemy. This would be a clear declaration by Pakistan that it opposes the U.N. mandate.

With that goes the benefits of proxy war.

We are spinning our wheels attempting to stabilize Afghanistan until this insurgency is neutralized. It won't be until sanctuary is removed. If it isn't, then America should withdraw along with ISAF and the U.N. and admit the ascendancy of Pakistan's foreign policy.

How you manage the afghan taliban takeover after the next afghan civil war and the effects of radical islamicization of Pakistan's tribal areas won't be the concern of others. Aid and more will evaporate. Your army will be on a constant war footing at all points of the compass as the TTP unleash their version for your benefits but from afghan taliban sanctuary of their own.

...and then there's A.Q. Who do you think the west will come calling upon when the next 9/11 goes down?

This is not good but roles in this Kabuki theatre are foreordained perhaps.

It doesn't have to be. It all depends on Pakistan and the choices it makes. I haven't much hope though.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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Learn about a topic before discussing it. Taliban shut down the drug trade? Only after they realized it hurt them far more than helped them...

...at the time. Strictly strategic for a nation that had set a then-world record for hectares cultivated with opium 1999-three years after they seized power-

Ask yourself where today the greatest opium issue lies in Afghanistan? Let me help you- in the pashtu taliban heartland of Helmand and Kandahar followed by Oruzgan. Both statistics are available for your review here-

Afghan Opium Survey 2009-UNODC September 2009

The taliban are the biggest war and drug lords of this conflict...by far. Now do some reading and educate yourself. The necessary graphs are on pages 1 & 2.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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"India is funding, arming, training and even participating with the TTP."

No it isn't.

You've provided nothing to the U.S. government that has swayed their thoughts on this matter. Nor have you done so for any of the other forty nations assembled in Afghanistan.

Were you correct that India is conducting terror operations against Pakistan from AFGHAN soil, India would be putting at risk all other nations in Afghanistan as well as all Afghan citizens.

Some guest of the afghan people. There are forty nations with their soldiers, NGOs, supra-national organizations, war correspondents, trade representatives, and many others in Afghanistan. Many do not like nor endorse America. Yet where are the articles and sightings of training camps and weapons depots?

There's an article here to begin this thread about TTP funding. Yet where in the article is India mentioned? Nonetheless, immediately this thread is twisted away from the author's contentions without even discussion of the merits surrounding KSA sourcing.

Nope.

India.

India gains nothing by fomenting rebellion and terror in Pakistan. It de-stabilizes your institutions and that's a decided Indian disadvantage. Further, India, even were it to seek such, can add little to what already is rampaging within your tribal lands. What might be added would come at great cost were India to be found complicit.

They would likely be ejected from Afghanistan and would lose all that they've heretofore attained by goodwill and diplomacy.

Of course, making such claims allows Pakistanis to justify the maintenence of sanctuary and the proxy support to the afghan taliban. Doing so, of course, ignores the stark correlation between the entry of these afghan taliban to your tribal areas in late 2001 and the beginnings of your own radicalized tribal populace.

"Good" taliban. "Bad" taliban. Pakistanis wish for the afghan people that which they can't bear themselves. There's no difference to the rest of mankind but when strategic depth is at stake Pakistanis can see all the difference in the world and find all the rationalizations necessary.

Thanks.:usflag:

Why India is helping ISAF forces?

Is India NATO member? --- NO
Is India helping under any UNO resolution ? ---NO


India and US are playing big game to secure energy corridor in central asia for their oil and gas supplies , rest is not more then drama .:D


Talaban are getting money from more then 30 Billion USD black market ( BARTER TRADE) exist near Pakistan and Afghanistan boarder plus Norcotices money which is more then 100 Billion USD per year.

Did still they need more money from Arabs or any other source?

Heroin is "Good for Your Health": Occupation Forces support Afghan ...The Western media in chorus blame the Taliban and the warlords. ... "Afghan heroin sells on the international narcotics market for 100 times the price ... value of Afghan heroin sales would be of the order of 194.4 billion dollars. .... CAD, USD, GBP, AUD, JPY, EUR, CHF, CZK, DKK, HKD, HUF, NOK, NZD, PLN, SEK, SGD ...
www.therebel.org/opinion/terror/3721 - Cached
 
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It has been disclosed numerous times but Pakistan has always denied it. See what US Admiral Mike Mullen said......

It has been 'disclosed'? Well it has been 'disclosed numerous times' by the GoP as well that the Indians are involved in terrorism in Pakistan - if disclosure is all you want then why ask for evidence to be published in the press by Pakistan? The 'numerous disclosures' by the GoP should be enough.

Where is Mullen's evidence similar to that which you demand from Pakistan?
 
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S-2:

The taliban can't be eliminated when Pakistan provides them with sanctuary.

The Taliban cannot be eliminated when the US/NATO run away and cede entire Afghan provinces to the Taliban as has happened in the North East of Afghanistan.

They cannot be eliminated when the US under-resources its mission in Afghanistan to wage war under false pretenses in Iraq.
God only knows what our leaders actually know about your collusion with the taliban but we can be assured that it goes into far greater depth.
It would appear that only God has any evidence of the allegations US and Indian officials have been braying about since no one else has offered anything close to such a thing.

Plus, we have an idea of US 'evidence' with the 'WMD's that didn't exist' escapade in Iraq - apparently Dubya had God hold on to that evidence as well. Surely at some point your nations lies and aggression against other nations to advance its own interests will shame you - unless of course like your government you are shameless.

That the AQ and Taliban minions managed to gain a foothold in NW is the fault of the US in that it was to afraid of body-counts to deploy the forces necessary to block off the Taliban/AQ escape after the invasion, and also refused to coordinate operations with Pakistani forces.

As for 'sanctuary' - the Taliban appear to have entire provinces of 'sanctuary' in Afghanistan now, which apparently is justifiable now since it is part of the glorious Fuhrer McChrystal's new plan.

Don't you get tired of eating your own shite S-2? Here your generals and leadership have advocated and are implementing a plan to cede large swathes of territory to the Taliban because of whatever constraints they feel apply, yet the donkeys in the US government, military, intelligence and media think it perfectly sound to criticize Pakistan for 'inaction' in NW - we have 'constraints' too you know.

Bajaur is once more in flames, and not coincidentally the up-tick coincided with the US allowing the Taliban to establish sanctuary in the North Eastern Afghn provinces by withdrawing their forces.

I'd say, using your logic, that the evidence here is unmistakable that the US is complicit in terrorism in Pakistan by virtue of ceding territory to Taliban groups aiding and carrying out terrorism in Pakistan.
 
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In an interesting section about the sources of funding this war, Gul cites a number of Pakistan government initiatives aimed at developing Fata. Apparently, warlords have received millions of rupees by way of diverted public funds.

That is not dissimilar to the diversion (to the Taliban) of reconstruction funds and NATO supplied weapons. In fact, given the much larger purse strings of the nations contributing to Afghanistan, the 'diversion of Afghan reconstruction funds' dwarfs anything that could be happening in Pakistan.

That said, has the author entirely ruled out Indian and/or US funding for terrorists in Pakistan? What is clear, from both this author and US officials, is that the alleged illegal money trail leading to the Gulf Arabs is very hard to track and disrupt. That would indicate that similar money trails leading to India and the US would be similarly hard to track and disrupt.

Perhaps the US and Indian 'money trails' are cleverly hidden under the guise of 'reconstruction funds that are illegally diverted to the Taliban'.

When the state-sponsored National Solidarity Program (NSP) gave Pushtrod 200,000 Afghani (40,000 U.S. dollars) to clean out the Nawbahar canal irrigation canal, he was overjoyed.

"But then the Taliban asked for 40 percent of the money," he told IWPR. "Otherwise they were not going to let us do the work. So we had to buy them a four-by-four."

... In district after district of the remote and volatile Farah province, the Taliban are taking control. But rather than chasing out the remnants of government authority, they are seeking to profit from them, by demanding a healthy portion of donor-funded assistance projects.

First and foremost among these are projects under the auspices of the NSP, a nationwide reconstruction initiative, launched in 2003 by the ministry of rural rehabilitation and development with funding from the international community.

One of the central missions of the NSP -- which has dispensed millions of dollars since it was launched -- is to foster good local governance by helping communities identify and implement projects that are in their interests.

But in Farah, at least, a substantial cut of the funding is being seized by the Taliban, who are demanding a share of the funds for protecting the projects -- from themselves. They then use the money they have extorted from the government to buy guns and ammunition.

http://www.alternet.org/world/133234/in_afghanistan,_taliban_taking_cut_of_reconstruction_funds/

The failures pile up in Afghanistan yet the donkeys in the US continue to scapegoat Pakistan.
 
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navtrek
This message has been deleted by AgNoStIc MuSliM. Reason: If you want to ask for proof respond to the posts above and accept that India and the US have none either.

Hon Y R Gilani and team themselves said they have found sufficient evidence and will share with the world. Remember 81 mm rockets, Agricultural chemicals etc.

It is easier make allegation and paint it as proofs, but what about a country's rulers claim of Proof ? It should have credibility every one is waiting.
 
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Terrorists attacks carried out in Pakistan are done on very sensitive military targets and personnel. It's hard to believe that foreign agencies are aware of internal military heirarchy or even ex political leaders that are targeted by militants. Foreign agencies are not concerned where these military leaders pray or where their relatives or families reside. This tells us that these acts are committed by insiders and this information is provided to militants(usually ignorant, illiterate, misinformed teenagers) who are used as instrument of terror. But real culprits are hard core Islamist & Jehadis are the some elements of PA & ISI. Anybody who thinks otherwise is living in fool's paradise.
 
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Terrorists attacks carried out in Pakistan are done on very sensitive military targets and personnel. It's hard to believe that foreign agencies are aware of internal military heirarchy or even ex political leaders that are targeted by militants. Foreign agencies are not concerned where these military leaders pray or where their relatives or families reside. This tells us that these acts are committed by insiders and this information is provided to militants(usually ignorant, illiterate, misinformed teenagers) who are used as instrument of terror. But real culprits are hard core Islamist & Jehadis are the some elements of PA & ISI. Anybody who thinks otherwise is living in fool's paradise.

Well that can be said for those also who think the way as shown above.
 
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HTML:
If so then why does Pakistani government not disclose everything in front of camera, at least photos of arrested Indians. Go to public with evidences. 

Till then all allegations from Pakistan are baseless.

While the Indian Army has announced that it is ready to open a two-front war against Pakistan and China,t he Army Headquarters at New Delhi forget that the Indian government and its spy agencies like RAW have already imposed a secret war against both Pakistan and China and certain credible proofs of the same have started surfacing both in China and Pakistan but due to certain unknown reasons, both Beijing and Islamabad are not taking up the issue officially with India or the global community, perhaps to maintain a calm in the region.







The investigations of The Daily Mail indicate that there are enough evidences available with China to prove that Indian Intelligence agency RAW had been active behind last year’s unrest in Tibet while the foreign hand behind recent riots in Chinese province Xinjiang is also believed to be that of RAW. Similarly the Pakistan government has been provided a variety of proofs of involvement of Indian government and especially the Indian intelligence agency behind the continuous chaos in various parts of Pakistan, particularly NWFP province’s Malakand division and tribal agencies of North and South Waziristan where Pakistan army is fighting awar against terrorists.

The Pakistan Army and the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI) have succeeded in gathering a number of proofs that conclusively show that the Indian government is hectically engaged in sponsoring the terrorists and extremists in various parts of Pakistan and especially those waging a war against Pakistan Army in NWFP province and tribal areas. Pakistani intelligence authorities have also detected that RAW was even involved in Monday’s carnage at Karachi in which, after a suicidal attack on a procession, through a well calculated and pre-planned exercise, a hell of fire was unleashed in the top commercial area of the city which caused huge financial loss, estimated to be over 5 billion rupees in less than a five hours’ time. The Daily Mail’s investigations indicate that the authorities have discovered certain potassium-chlorate based explosives, manufactured by Vaigai Industries, Madurai district of Tamil Nadu state in southern India.

Some weapons, available in the international market to every one were also given by the Indians in farcical dossier to prove the Mumbai attackers were Pakistanis The image of Milk Pak, a dry milk brand of Pakistan given by the Indians in farcical dossier to prove the Mumbai attackers were Pakistanis

A funny proof, given by the Indians in farcical dossier to prove the Mumbai attackers were Pakistanis

The Daily Mail’s investigations reveal that the ISI and Pakistan Army started discovering the proofs of comprehensive Indian involvement when a military operation was launched against terrorists in Balochistan province a few years back. These investigations indicate that the Pakistani law enforcing agencies found highly credible evidence proving that the Indians were not only giving comprehensive financial support to terrorists in Balochistan but were also providing them with huge caches of all sorts of weapons and other military equipment. These investigations indicate that those proofs were given to the federal government in Islamabad. But at that time, then President of Pakistan General Pervez Musharraf deferred taking up the matter with the Indians as he was focusing on enhancing the peace process with New Delhi. However he is believed to have shown these proofs to the Americans.

According to some credible sources, at one stage President Musharraf showed a photograph to the US ambassador to Pakistan in which the most wanted militant Baitullah Mehsood could be seen coming out of one of the Indian diplomatic Missions in Afghanistan.

The Daily Mail’s findings further indicate that owing to the US pressure to keep increasing friendly ties with India, the Gilani government also preferred to avoid taking up the issue of Indian involvement in Baluchistan with New Delhi.

In the meanwhile, the incident of 26/11 took place which pushed Islamabad on the back foot and the issue of raising the matter with New Delhi was deferred further as New Delhi, after the 26/11 attacks in Mumbai, sent a farcical dossier, based on a fabricate confessional statement by a RAW created fake surviving terrorist.

It remains a fact that the said statement of the fake accused was exposed as a RAW fabricated draft by The Daily Mail in its special investigative report. This faulty dossier, based on ridiculous proofs turned out to be more than enough to spin the minds of officials of Interior Ministry and Foreign Office at Islamabad and they, instead of challenging the farcical India dossier and rejecting it completely they rather started acting in accordance with the India dossier that was actually nothing but a double bullshit with cherry on the top.

In the meanwhile, when the government ordered a comprehensive military operation against the extremists and terrorists in parts of NWFP province and the tribal belts of Waziristan agencies, the Pakistani security forces and intelligence authorities were shocked to see that all the ammunition dumps of Taliban militants were full of Indian weapons, arms and explosives. Here again the security forces discovered the weapons manufactured by different units of Indian Ordinance Factories (IOF) and explosives and chemicals made by Vaigai Chemical Industries of India. It is worth mentioning here that there are around 40 arms and ammunition manufacturing units in India that work under IOF while the Vaigai is the 2nd largest Potassium chlorate manufacturing facility of India.

The Daily Mail’s findings indicate that not only this but the Pakistani security forces also seized a large amount of Indian currency and Indian medicines from the deserted or conquered hideouts of militants in different operations in Swat and Waziristan. The Daily Mail has learnt that the Indian medicines were used by militants not only as routine life saves or pain killing drugs but these also include the sex and emotions related medicines and were found in abundance at different hideouts of the militants and at their small secret hospital and medical facilities. In addition, the security forces also seized huge amount of currency bills of Indian currency either from the arrested militants or from the captured hideouts. The investigations reveal that trade in Indian currency in all parts of Afghanistan is quite open and normal and one can buy anything at anywhere with Indian currency in any part of Afghanistan. According to some reports, the Indian currency is more acceptable than the US Dollar in Afghani business markets.

INDIAN GRENADES & THE ‘SPICE BOMB’

The Daily Mail’s findings indicate that the most interesting proof of the Indians sponsoring the militants in Pakistan was the discovery of an India made strange grenade. These grenades that were seized amongst other Indian weapons from militants’ different ammo dumps and hideouts is known as the curry bomb and Indians have used it in Pakistan through militants as a test case.

The Daily Mail’s findings indicate that this a one hundred percent indigenous bomb of the Indian Ordnance factories and the Indians have tested it against the enemy for the first time in Waziristan. The terrorists would use these curry bombs to attack on different camps and posts of security forces to flush the personnel out and then to target them, something that was quite new for Pakistani security forces. According to the British newspaper Daily Mail (UK), “India’s weapons development experts have developed an eye-watering spice bomb, packed with a potent mix of red chilli and pepper which will be used to smoke out militants during counter-insurgency operations. As Britain’s legion of Friday night Vindaloo casualties will testify, too much chilli can be debilitating.

But scientists from India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation have discovered that the spices which make your curry so hot can also bring an enemy to his knees in seconds. Eye-watering: The spice bomb is packed with a potent mix of red chilli and pepper. The mix of spices and phosphorous chokes the enemy’s respiratory tract, leaving targets barely able to breathe for a time,” the newspaper concludes.

The Daily Mail’s findings indicate that though all these concrete proofs have been handed over to the federal government by the security forces and intelligence agencies, yet the government is not feeling like taking up the matter with the Indians or the global community. The Daily Mail is here publishing the comparative images of the evidences given to Pakistan by the Indian government regarding the 26/11 Mumbai attacks and the concrete evidences discovered by Pakistani security forces and given to the government so that a dossier can be sent to New Delhi as well.
source;India?s Ridiculous Mumbai Evidence Vs. Pakistan?s Concrete Waziristan Proof Pakistan Ka Khuda Hafiz

ARE you:hang2: or:lazy:
 
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"It would appear that only God has any evidence..."

You've offered your own words- "inaction" as rationalization. Quit waffling and back-pedaling.

Your defense minister has offered the "destruction" of the quetta shura as proof.

"Security forces have taken on the 'Quetta Shura', damaged it to such an extent that it no longer pose any threat to the country," The Daily Times quoted Mikhtar, as saying.

Do you deny this quote? How could the Quetta shura not exist one day and be "damaged" by security forces the next?

David Rohde of the NYT offers a son of Haqqani personally driving him about N. Waziristan as proof.

"OUR first Pakistani home was in Miram Shah, the capital of North Waziristan. Two large sleeping rooms looked out on a small courtyard. One even had a small washroom, separate from the toilet, for showering.

On the first day there, I went to the bathroom and returned to find Tahir with a fresh cut on his calf. It looked as if someone had drawn a line across his leg in red ink. A local Waziri militant had taken out his knife and tried to cut off a chunk of Tahir’s calf, saying he wanted to eat the flesh of an Afghan who worked with Westerners. One of Atiqullah’s guards had stopped him.

All day, a parade of random Pakistani militants stopped by the house to stare at us. I felt like an animal in a zoo. Among them was a local Taliban commander who introduced himself as Badruddin. He was the brother of Sirajuddin Haqqani, who led the Haqqani network, one of the most powerful Taliban factions in the region. Miram Shah was its stronghold."


They're there. You know it and so do we.

"we have 'constraints' too you know."

Not an issue if sanctuary wasn't an issue. Pleading constraints is the same as admitting sanctuary.

You have eight years of willful sanctuary. You're protecting a resource and will do so until America leaves Afghanistan.

"Bray" on that.

Please remove the afghan taliban sanctuaries on your land and try to control your crude language if you can.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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