Dont Worry Democracy is Here!

[Chogy]

Yep we have had our idiots as leaders too... Yazid anyone?

I agree... no one should have power of life and death over others... This is why if a Caliph acts unjustly against someone, the Islamic state gives the right for that person to take the Caliph to court...

And if the Caliph has 10,000 hardened warriors threatening retribution... what would the decision of the court be? That is my point. A despot survives by having tentacles of power throughout a government system, and the force to back them up.

Oh and although Bush was nt a benevolent Dictator... you should include him amongst these people for spilling an equal amount of blood... Where he differs is that he did it to another country...

I believe that could be another thread. I was never in favor of Iraq. But an example from Iraq... the battle for Fallujah. A Baathist enclave that killed and then brutally desecrated several bodies. A nest of snakes.

The decision was made to neutralize Fallujah. An evil despot would have ordered 100 B-52's to drop mile-long strings of 2,000 lb iron bombs and reduce Fallujah to rubble. Zero U.S> casualties. Instead, they sent U.S. Marines for door to door urban combat, to ensure fewer innocents were killed. The result - Fallujah neutralized at the cost of 95 Marines killed, over 500 wounded. Bush and his Generals chose to sacrifice U.S. blood to minimize destruction and innocent casualties. That is not in line with the likes of those I had listed before.

 

[forcetrip]

Democracy is the best and only way of govt by the people. All the rich countries and those developed only by democracy.

They developed themselves as human beings before developing democracy. You can raise all the Islamic slogans on Saturday rallies and marches and still will be miles away from the most simplest form of natures design. This country needs a healthy doze of simple do's and dont's that are taught to 3 year olds before anyone should be allowed to practice or preach any religion.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

And if the Caliph has 10,000 hardened warriors threatening retribution... what would the decision of the court be? That is my point. A despot survives by having tentacles of power throughout a government system, and the force to back them up.

That is how it works in a democracy... The rich and powerful can get decisions in their favor... or if not... change the law altogether...

As for your question... Chogy what you are missing is that at the end of the day each Muslim knows (not believes) that one day he/she will stand before God who will judge him... Since I have been giving examples of Islamic history there have been numerous cases where the judges have given judgement against the most famous and popular Caliphs... A well known court case was of Ali the fourth Caliph who lost a case against a Jewish citizen of the Islamic State...

I believe that could be another thread. I was never in favor of Iraq. But an example from Iraq... the battle for Fallujah. A Baathist enclave that killed and then brutally desecrated several bodies. A nest of snakes.

The decision was made to neutralize Fallujah. An evil despot would have ordered 100 B-52's to drop mile-long strings of 2,000 lb iron bombs and reduce Fallujah to rubble. Zero U.S> casualties. Instead, they sent U.S. Marines for door to door urban combat, to ensure fewer innocents were killed. The result - Fallujah neutralized at the cost of 95 Marines killed, over 500 wounded. Bush and his Generals chose to sacrifice U.S. blood to minimize destruction and innocent casualties. That is not in line with the likes of those I had listed before.[/QUOTE]


I never said you supported Iraq... but its interesting that you give the example of Fallujah... do you know that trouble in Fallujah (which was initially a very pro American city in Iraq) started after your soldiers from the 82nd airborne fired upon innocent Iraqis in Fallujah demanding the opening of a school?

and perhaps turning Fallujah to rubble would have had some dangerous political consequences... Military people seldom understand the power of politics it seems...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

You should watch the documentary Fallujah, the hidden massacre...

 

[Chogy]

I appreciate the respectful conversation.

Christianity also believes in judgement. In that, there is little difference. But I don't want to delve too deeply into religion.

On Fallujah... it was Baathist before the war, and received much favoritism from Saddam and the leadership. It wasn't one (or two, or three) episodes that led to the final battle, it was an ongoing issue.

I know everyone thinks Wikipedia is Jewish, but the description of the situation prior to the battle is succinct:

In the months after the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003, Fallujah was one of the most peaceful areas of the country. There was very little looting, and the new mayor of the city, Taha Bidaywi Hamed, selected by local tribal leaders, was staunchly pro-American. However, events were soon to heat up to the boiling point. The pre-operation timeline is as follows:

On April 28, 2003, a crowd of 200 people defied a local curfew and gathered outside a local school to protest the presence of foreign forces in the city. The protest escalated as gunmen reportedly fired upon U.S. troops from the protesting crowd and U.S. Army soldiers from the 3rd Battalion of the 325th Airborne Infantry Regiment of the 82nd Airborne Division returned fire, killing 17 people and wounding more than 70 of the protesters. A paratrooper, SPC Vincent Black of the 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, who had jumped from a C-17 operated by the 786th Security Forces Squadron, was wounded by a RPG-7 and dramatically med-evac'd during the intense firefight. U.S. forces said that the firefight took place over 30–60 minutes, however other sources indicate that shooting continued for over 2 hours. (my addition - this would indicate a large number of fighters and weapons)

In February, 2004, control of Fallujah and the surrounding area in the Al-Anbar province was transferred from the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division to the 1st Marine Division. Shortly afterward, on March 31, 2004, four American Blackwater USA contractors were ambushed and killed in the city. Images of their mutilated bodies were broadcast around the world.

So we can believe that the U.S. troops randomly fired at peaceful protestors. Or, we can take the above at face value.

Given the vast number of insurgents, weapons, and foreign fighters involved in the conflict, I tend to believe that Fallujah was in fact a nest of insurgents sitting upon a huge weapons stockpile, and the Wiki description is relatively accurate. But that's another thread, and I apologize for the drift. I felt it needed defending.

 

[ARSENAL6]

Excatly democracy is here afterall:



YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.




Prince HArry using the ****:

YouTube - Prince Harry brands friend "My little **** Friend

YouTube - Prince Harry calling **** to Pakistan Army Officer

YouTube - PRINCE HARRY RACIST **** VIDEO | Prince Harry in trouble over Racist Slur | Rag head

 

[pkpatriotic]

In view of politicia...>>>>

"Lotto -- tey -- phutto", Don't worry democrazy is here!
"Maal bannao-- Jaan bannao" Don't worry democrazy is here!
Degree ho ya na ho, Don't worry democrazy is here!
P-----------O-----L-------I------T-------I----------C-----A----L
Peddler Offensive Liar Indecent Tactfull Insumanial Corrupt And Lofty --- Elites

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Chogy:

Just coz I m opposed to American led invasions of the Muslim world does nt mean that I am disrespectful towards all Americans... You are a guest here from America and you ll always be welcome...

About your point about Christians believing in Judgement... Cmon dude... You may have a good relationship with God but then should we believe Dubya who said that God told him to go to war?

My point is that western society is extremely secular... Some of the fruits of Capitalism include greed, extreme individualism, self interest and apathy towards religion... this is not the case for Muslims... People still value piety and a Judge in court is to be a man of good character, courage and knowledge...

Infact there is a court described in ideological literature called Madhalam i.e Courts of Injustice... The Judge who presides such a court has the power to remove the Caliph from office if he deems his crime to warrant such a decision!!!

Our main problem has been that of application... This is why you ll find many Muslims talk about the first four Caliphs because they are taken as the ideal model that we should strive for... But the history of Islamic courts and Qadhis or Judges is an interesting subject that I would encourage all readers to explore and study...

As for Fallujah... We have some reports of serious misconduct by American troops there... You can defend it all you like and considering the greater context of the whole war being waged on false premises and lies... but the images of US troops shooting and destroying mosques can never go well with most of the Muslim world... thats why you ll find Muslims quoting it amongst the list of atrocities in Iraq... even if I were to accept your statement that it was essentially Baathist...

As for the main discussion... once people have the knowledge of this system, they ll obviously demand such a court that they can sue the Caliph... Can you give me any example of something similar in Capitailsm... Dont think George Bush will ever face an American court even though many Americans have accused him of taking the country to war based on lies and causing bloodshed including deaths of Americans serving in Iraq...



I think readers will smile at this comment... In an Islamic system no one really wants to be the Caliph because firstly it is such a huge responsibility and secondly anyone can really grab you by the neck and demand all sorts of crazy things from you... and sue you if you refuse... who would want a life like that...

 

[fatman17]

The Neros of our time

Kamila Hyat

The writer is a freelance columnist and former newspaper editor

The ability to stay calm and collected in the face of crisis is usually a much-admired quality. Through the centuries it has been associated, alongside the quality of courage, with the most successful statesmen and warriors of history.
But courage can sometimes veer dangerously close to foolishness. The 1854 Charge of the Light Brigade, eulogised in poetry and film, comes to mind. The 600 men making up the British cavalry brigade commanded by Lord Cardigan, who set out on a disastrous advance against Russian forces, would have been well advised to stay put. The Roman Emperor Nero is, of course, best known for fiddling while Rome burned. There are examples from modern times, such as that of President George W Bush who refused to acknowledge that the Iraq war into which he led his country had been a disaster.

We wonder if today we have foolishness, or great courage, on display in Islamabad. Our president smiles often – even as killings in Karachi intensify, the war in the north becomes more and more complex, with no one apparently quite certain what is going on, and millions of flood victims face the threat of death due to disease and prolonged suffering in the face of a crisis that has left them without shelter, without livelihood and without hope. We also have a continued threat of confrontation between the judiciary and the executive and a completely dysfunctional government which seems to have less and less control over events in the country.

The battle against the militants has apparently been left largely to the military, which is, we are given to understand, quite openly doing business with its old ally – the North Waziristan-based Haqqani network which operated alongside the agencies in the war against the former Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

The breakdown in law and order means we have more and more cases of mob murder and other kinds of mayhem. In Punjab the writ of the central government is a weak one, "targeted killings" strike down Baloch nationalist leaders and add to the restiveness in the province. This restiveness results from time to time in the massacre of "settlers" from other provinces, some of whom have been in Balochistan for generations. And we also have sectarian violence that expands rapidly across the country.

Like the president, the prime minister too appears largely unmoved by all that happens on his watch, implying through his speeches and other statements that all, in fact, is quite well, and that things continue on a routine course.

As people too, we seem to have become accustomed to living in a condition of constant turmoil. Many of us are surprised when friends write in from abroad after the latest bout of frenzied killings or bombings to ask if all is well. So usual has violence and chaos become that we barely react to it. In Iceland, murder is unknown as a crime. But it is significant that even five African countries – Senegal, Burkina Faso, Gambia, Mali and Mauritania – figure on the list of the world's ten nations with the lowest rates of murder, which suggests that wealth or development, or lack of them, are not necessarily a factor in violence.
Our stoicism, and that of our leaders, is the consequence of living for years in a state of crisis. Indeed, notably over the last two decades, periods of genuine order have been less and less frequent. We have seen a swift descent into a state of lawlessness, where today it is hard to say if the biggest threat comes from the north, with at least seven separate militant forces operating across it, the south where death squads stroll through Karachi, or areas of Punjab where organisations with jihadist or sectarian motives continue to operate without any real check.

The links of some, such as the Lashkar-e-Taiba of Hafiz Saeed to the ISI complicate the equation and explain why it has been impossible to shut the LeT down. It seems clear that civilian governments cannot do so on their own, with this question of balancing out Pakistan's civilian and military also at the forefront of US thinking. The latest aid package for the military, which the US media tells us comes wrapped in yarn after yarn of string, is a reflection of this – with Washington linking the $2 billion it has agreed to extend with determined action against militants and also an increased presence in Pakistan for the CIA.

There is plenty of reason for the confusion and the mistrust that exists everywhere. But perhaps we need to accept that solving crisis means that, first of all, we must accept that it exists. Our political leaders would do well to move in this direction. The charade of normalcy all of us have played out for years cannot continue indefinitely.

Eventually the fragile world of make-belief we have created will collapse. Many have no such world to hide in. Hunger, the misery of deprivation and the frustration of joblessness never goes away. Those who live in such conditions are already rapping at the glass bubble within which politicians function and the elite live. The rapping could in the months to come grow louder, angrier and more dangerous.

Courage demands that leaders step forward and first of all acknowledge that many things are far from well. This in itself would come as a kind of relief. There is really no point in pretending that all is well. This, in fact, borders on insanity, of the kind displayed by Nero. Most people, and indeed the world, know this is not really the case at all. What we need to do is find solutions.

Failing to address the malady will only allow the basic problem to get worse and for more turbulence to break out. People everywhere blame the government and the political parties for much that is wrong. It can be put right only by the leaders demonstrating some degree of distress over the plight of people and the state of the country – rather than pretending all is well.

 

[Chogy]

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim, You are correct, Fallujah and Iraq are another thread.

But you do realize that the President of the U.S. can (and has been) removed from office by a mechanism known as impeachment? If his behavior warrants it, the Legislature (the Congress and the Senate) can call for impeachment... removal from office.

The impeachment process is complex, but it has happened. One of the more famous episodes was the imminent impeachment of President Richard Nixon. He resigned the office before the impeachment took place.

So yes, in the U.S. system, the so-called "most powerful man in the world" can (and has been) ejected from office. Along with impeachment, we have the checks and balances system that prevents any one of the three major government functions from gaining all power.

The Executive (President and his Cabinet)
The Legislature (Congress and Senate; they create laws)
The Judiciary (Court system; they examine passed laws to ensure they are in line with the Constitution)

My point in all this is that by spreading the power about, it limits abuses. Importantly, the sheer volume of labor required to effectively run a nation is spread among many. It is contentious, fractious, argumentative, but it does work. As a final backup, we have an amendment to the Constitution that ensures any citizen who wants to be armed, may be armed. The ultimate power resides with the citizen via vote, and failing that, in extremity, by force of arms.

My point is that western society is extremely secular... Some of the fruits of Capitalism include greed, extreme individualism, self interest and apathy towards religion...

The fruits of capitalism produce the vast bulk of advanced technology, consumer goods, and things we take for granted in daily life. Extreme individualism produced the Wright Brothers, Thomas Edison, Nicolaus Otto, Jonas Salk, thousands of people who save lives and make the world better. Self-interest creates giant companies that provide jobs for millions. I'd rather see these in abundance, rather than billions of cookie-cutter people, whose individualism is suppressed.

 

[Solomon2]

Corruption is rampant in the land of the pure, but dont worry democracy is here!
The pillars of the state are at loggerheads with each other, but dont worry democracy is here!
Karachi is burning, but dont worry democracy is here!
Food inflation is at its peak, but dont worry democracy is here!
The Flood effectees have been forgotten, but dont worry democracy is here!
The world wants us to tax the rich, but dont worry democracy is here!
No Police and law and order in the rural areas, but dont worry democracy is here!
India diverts water from the rivers of kashmir, but dont worry democracy is here!
Power outages / loadshedding are crippling the industry, but dont worry democracy is here!
The govt. education system is bankrupt, but dont worry democracy is here.
No dams to store water, but dont worry democracy is here!
Fake degrees wallas are reigning supreme, but dont worry democracy is here!
No justice for the poor, but dont worry democracy is here!
The govt is bankrupt, cant pay its bills, but dont worry democracy is here!
According to the govt, all is well in the land of the pure, but dont worry democracy is here!
The world wants our nukes, but dont worry democracy is here!
There is no democracy in the political parties, but dont worry democracy is here!
We pay lip-service to defend our sovereignity, but dont worry democracy is here!
The WoT is sapping the country and economy, but dont worry democracy is here!
and finally.....if we dont change ourselves, we wld be long gone, and then we dont need to worry about democracy!
Long-Live Pakistan & its People!

The Puritans from the Mayflower had none of those issues, or solved them in short order. (Of course some of them, like nukes, weren't even possible back then.) The difference between America's excellent performance compared to Pakistan is that in America, especially Yankee America, democracy is a bottom-up affair, organized first locally, then regionally, then nationwide, whereas Pakistan is a state ruled by an elite and its "democracy" is mostly a trickle-down affair.

Democratic institutions established without democratic values in both the populace and the elite tend to be flawed and unstable either because the elite crafting them isn't committed to the cause or the populace isn't alert enough to any shenanigans that may be taking place.

At the point where the situation becomes intolerable, it may be beneficial to craft a new system. Decent electioneering and honest ballots at the local level, ignoring totally any objections of current politicians, to supersede by popular and undeniable legitimacy the old system. Once local democracy is established, then a constitutional convention to expand the new franchise to the regional and national level. The superior legitimacy of the new system being so evident that the old one throws in the towel or fades into obscurity.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Muhammad-Bin-Qasim, You are correct, Fallujah and Iraq are another thread.

But you do realize that the President of the U.S. can (and has been) removed from office by a mechanism known as impeachment? If his behavior warrants it, the Legislature (the Congress and the Senate) can call for impeachment... removal from office.

The impeachment process is complex, but it has happened. One of the more famous episodes was the imminent impeachment of President Richard Nixon. He resigned the office before the impeachment took place.

So yes, in the U.S. system, the so-called "most powerful man in the world" can (and has been) ejected from office. Along with impeachment, we have the checks and balances system that prevents any one of the three major government functions from gaining all power.

The Executive (President and his Cabinet)
The Legislature (Congress and Senate; they create laws)
The Judiciary (Court system; they examine passed laws to ensure they are in line with the Constitution)

My point in all this is that by spreading the power about, it limits abuses. Importantly, the sheer volume of labor required to effectively run a nation is spread among many. It is contentious, fractious, argumentative, but it does work. As a final backup, we have an amendment to the Constitution that ensures any citizen who wants to be armed, may be armed. The ultimate power resides with the citizen via vote, and failing that, in extremity, by force of arms.

The fruits of capitalism produce the vast bulk of advanced technology, consumer goods, and things we take for granted in daily life. Extreme individualism produced the Wright Brothers, Thomas Edison, Nicolaus Otto, Jonas Salk, thousands of people who save lives and make the world better. Self-interest creates giant companies that provide jobs for millions. I'd rather see these in abundance, rather than billions of cookie-cutter people, whose individualism is suppressed.

Nixon is a good example... As I have already stated... Democracy shares bits of the same idea of accountability with Islam... Nixon had shot himself in the foot and lied blatantly and got caught lying... but as you yourself mention it is difficult to impeach the President... An ordinary man has no power to sue the President of the US in America... In the Caliphate if an ordinary citizen has a case against the Caliph... he can sue the leader...

Islam also has somewhat a similar system of

Executive: The Caliph and Assistant Caliphs/Governors of Provinces
Judiciary: The Courts and a special court to deal with injustice done by rulers called the Madhalim courts...
Council of Ummah: This includes representatives of the population who advise the Caliph on different issues...

However we do not have a legislating body because that has been done by the Quran, Sunnah and Ijmaa of the companions of the Prophet... as well as analogy... In cases where there is need for a new law the process of ijtihad based upon these sources of law (In Arabic law is called Shariah) provides for that... e.g the issue of cloning being a new technology has needed ijtihad... where there is more than one law derived, the Caliphs word is final...

As for your point about Capitalism providing the bulk of science and technology... There are a few points to consider...

Firstly science is not the fruit of Capitalism alone... Science is universal and stems from the desire of mankind to observe and learn about the world that surrounds him... Even the Communists produced new scientific ideas and interesting technology... Perhaps the drive for profit is greater than the stagnating idea of having collective ownership, but at the same time, Capitalism results in halting of progress in science and technology... Capitalism breeds monopolies and adopts ideas like Copy Rights and Licensing to prevent other people/companies to build upon technological advancement...

This can be seen in many fields like information technology but its effects are most obviously disastrous in the fields of agriculture and medicine... Copyrighting has caused much misery in the world by denying the ill of medication that can be cheaply provided to them...
A classic example would be that of medicine for AIDS... In fact interestingly for our Indian readers (and there are plenty on this forum), India long time ago adopted a policy of refusing such a copyright hegemony in this field and has been able to produce good quality medication for their own population as well as being able to export cheap medicine to other countries... It would seem someone in India simply refused to be budged by the powerful Pharmaceutical companies...

These are actually details and require an in depth discussion... If you want to know whats wrong with Capitalism in one main point, you need to consider this... Interest based transaction which is inherently a part of Capitalism is a recipe to make the rich richer and the poor poorer... Once people understand how this aspect of Capitalism enslaves most of the world, they start realizing why there is a need for an alternative system... Pakistan as a poor nation has paid back its original loan from organizations like IMF/World Bank more than 12 times over the original loan!!!! Similarly Sudan has paid it back 18 times over the original loan... Brazil similarly tens of times over the original loan... This is actually true for a lot of countries...

Similarly when profit making comes to a minimum in the business world... people start hoarding their wealth in banks to earn interest on it... For this very reason in times of a downturn banks reduce the rate of interest... because hoarding money in banks causes stagnation in the economy... Once people know that the only way to make a profit is by investing, they ll make use of their money instead of saving it to earn interest on it... this actually will provide more jobs and more activity in business... people of skills can open new ventures and entrepreneurship...

There are a lot of other things that are very oppressive in Capitalist system... The way government taxes people... One third of my pay gets deducted as income tax before I actually see my paycheck... There are all sorts of other taxes... VAT, Road tax, GST and God knows what else...

You misunderstood my point about individualism... in fact the examples that you have given of Wright brothers etc are exactly the examples that go against the concept of individualism... I m talking about individualism where every man thinks for themselves and does not care for others... What you are talking about are qualities of different individuals and there is nothing wrong with passion for invention and science...

If you look back in history, you ll find that the humanitarian aspect within western societies is actually a very new phenomenon and it was mostly as a response to the rise of Communism to prevent the people from getting influenced by Marxism which had found a home in Russia... We did not have the NHS here in the UK until after the second world war!!!!

A better example of individualism would be the happy slapping culture of the U.K!!!

Self interest is not setting up giant companies man... That is business... Self interest is rogue traders on the stock market!!!!

The state itself becomes a profit making machine under Capitalism instead of acting as a guardian for the people... which should be the real role of the state...

Now heres what I want you to do... Get a cold root beer my friend... and watch the following from start to finish...

YouTube - Session 1| The Suffering under Capitalism (Part 3) Khilafah Conference - Hizb ut-Tahrir America

 

[Chogy]

You make some fine points and articulate them well. There are certainly many ways to run a nation, some better than others, but it definitely depends upon the desires of the people themselves, and the sort of governance they seek.

I've NEVER been a fan of pure capitalism. Pure capitalism gave us child labor, like children in coal mines and textile mills... it gave us worker abuses like 18 hour days and company stores that rip off the worker. There must be oversight, but I prefer that it be light. If too burdened with extreme taxation, extraordinarily excessive environmental regulations, unionism that completely inhibits the ability to fire a bad worker, then production slows or halts, entrepreneurs don't even try, and evolution of industry stagnates. Then, people lose jobs, and everyone suffers.

There's a fine line in there, and it is the job of government to find it, and maintain it. Likewise, there must be safety nets for the poor, but I prefer them to be faith-based charities, or private systems. Government-run welfare tends to be abused too often.

I enjoyed reading your point of view. Thank you.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

You make some fine points and articulate them well. There are certainly many ways to run a nation, some better than others, but it definitely depends upon the desires of the people themselves, and the sort of governance they seek.

I've NEVER been a fan of pure capitalism. Pure capitalism gave us child labor, like children in coal mines and textile mills... it gave us worker abuses like 18 hour days and company stores that rip off the worker. There must be oversight, but I prefer that it be light. If too burdened with extreme taxation, extraordinarily excessive environmental regulations, unionism that completely inhibits the ability to fire a bad worker, then production slows or halts, entrepreneurs don't even try, and evolution of industry stagnates. Then, people lose jobs, and everyone suffers.

There's a fine line in there, and it is the job of government to find it, and maintain it. Likewise, there must be safety nets for the poor, but I prefer them to be faith-based charities, or private systems. Government-run welfare tends to be abused too often.

I enjoyed reading your point of view. Thank you.

You are always welcome my friend... I always maintain that discussion is the way forward for the world... Why cant we all Americans, Africans, Europeans or Asians, sit down and discuss the issues... This is of utmost importance in America and Europe today than any time before where evil people whose hearts have nothing but hate towards Muslims have been trying to stifle all debate... Sadly Chogy, you and I can do as much as a man can in his individual capacity... the elites and governments in the west have their heads stuck up their back side and see nothing of the misery of the world... It is hoped though that with responsible consideration of the problems that face all mankind, many people will come to the conclusion that real co operation amongst nations is possible and the world has enough resources to provide comfort to everyone... We are always hoping for a better tomorrow...

Wish you a good weekend!!!

 

[Fighter488]

Nixon is a good example... As I have already stated... Democracy shares bits of the same idea of accountability with Islam... Nixon had shot himself in the foot and lied blatantly and got caught lying... but as you yourself mention it is difficult to impeach the President... An ordinary man has no power to sue the President of the US in America... In the Caliphate if an ordinary citizen has a case against the Caliph... he can sue the leader...

Islam also has somewhat a similar system of

Executive: The Caliph and Assistant Caliphs/Governors of Provinces
Judiciary: The Courts and a special court to deal with injustice done by rulers called the Madhalim courts...
Council of Ummah: This includes representatives of the population who advise the Caliph on different issues...

However we do not have a legislating body because that has been done by the Quran, Sunnah and Ijmaa of the companions of the Prophet... as well as analogy... In cases where there is need for a new law the process of ijtihad based upon these sources of law (In Arabic law is called Shariah) provides for that... e.g the issue of cloning being a new technology has needed ijtihad... where there is more than one law derived, the Caliphs word is final...

As for your point about Capitalism providing the bulk of science and technology... There are a few points to consider...

Firstly science is not the fruit of Capitalism alone... Science is universal and stems from the desire of mankind to observe and learn about the world that surrounds him... Even the Communists produced new scientific ideas and interesting technology... Perhaps the drive for profit is greater than the stagnating idea of having collective ownership, but at the same time, Capitalism results in halting of progress in science and technology... Capitalism breeds monopolies and adopts ideas like Copy Rights and Licensing to prevent other people/companies to build upon technological advancement...

This can be seen in many fields like information technology but its effects are most obviously disastrous in the fields of agriculture and medicine... Copyrighting has caused much misery in the world by denying the ill of medication that can be cheaply provided to them...
A classic example would be that of medicine for AIDS... In fact interestingly for our Indian readers (and there are plenty on this forum), India long time ago adopted a policy of refusing such a copyright hegemony in this field and has been able to produce good quality medication for their own population as well as being able to export cheap medicine to other countries... It would seem someone in India simply refused to be budged by the powerful Pharmaceutical companies...

These are actually details and require an in depth discussion... If you want to know whats wrong with Capitalism in one main point, you need to consider this... Interest based transaction which is inherently a part of Capitalism is a recipe to make the rich richer and the poor poorer... Once people understand how this aspect of Capitalism enslaves most of the world, they start realizing why there is a need for an alternative system... Pakistan as a poor nation has paid back its original loan from organizations like IMF/World Bank more than 12 times over the original loan!!!! Similarly Sudan has paid it back 18 times over the original loan... Brazil similarly tens of times over the original loan... This is actually true for a lot of countries...

Similarly when profit making comes to a minimum in the business world... people start hoarding their wealth in banks to earn interest on it... For this very reason in times of a downturn banks reduce the rate of interest... because hoarding money in banks causes stagnation in the economy... Once people know that the only way to make a profit is by investing, they ll make use of their money instead of saving it to earn interest on it... this actually will provide more jobs and more activity in business... people of skills can open new ventures and entrepreneurship...

There are a lot of other things that are very oppressive in Capitalist system... The way government taxes people... One third of my pay gets deducted as income tax before I actually see my paycheck... There are all sorts of other taxes... VAT, Road tax, GST and God knows what else...

You misunderstood my point about individualism... in fact the examples that you have given of Wright brothers etc are exactly the examples that go against the concept of individualism... I m talking about individualism where every man thinks for themselves and does not care for others... What you are talking about are qualities of different individuals and there is nothing wrong with passion for invention and science...

If you look back in history, you ll find that the humanitarian aspect within western societies is actually a very new phenomenon and it was mostly as a response to the rise of Communism to prevent the people from getting influenced by Marxism which had found a home in Russia... We did not have the NHS here in the UK until after the second world war!!!!

A better example of individualism would be the happy slapping culture of the U.K!!!

Self interest is not setting up giant companies man... That is business... Self interest is rogue traders on the stock market!!!!

The state itself becomes a profit making machine under Capitalism instead of acting as a guardian for the people... which should be the real role of the state...

Now heres what I want you to do... Get a cold root beer my friend... and watch the following from start to finish...

YouTube - Session 1| The Suffering under Capitalism (Part 3) Khilafah Conference - Hizb ut-Tahrir America

A very succintly put peice of logic and reasoning Muhammad-Bin-Qasim. Apt write-up! Congrats!

Fighter