Does the Establishment realize that Pakistan's future is with China?

[Cheepek]

That is not the case with China: there is no permanent ideological enemy entrenched within their power structure. They will do business and Pakistan can find a more honest playing field without a built-in bias.

Okayyy. Be glad you are not at the helm of affairs.

 

[fatman17]

This is not an option; it is a necessity forced upon us.

All this talk of balancing and diplomacy misses the point that the US is irrevocably against Pakistan. We can and should pursue economic interest but, strategically, they will never accept a strong Pakistan. The US will only tolerate a weak Pakistan that is subservient to India. This will not change no matter how much we dance to their tune.

1. The US' top priority is China containment and they have picked India as their regional ally. To that end, they must weaken Pakistan so India can focus on China.

2. The all-powerful Israeli lobby in the US will continue to push an anti-Pakistan agenda even if we recognize them. Israel will never accept a nuclear-capable Pakistan. It is non-negotiable.

3. The Muslim world is irrelevant. The Arabs and Iranians are locked in their eternal conflict, the Turks are schizophrenic about being part of Europe or Asia, the East Asian Muslim countries are rightfully focusing on domestic issue first.

If Pakistan loses China's trust, that will be the final nail in the coffin for this country. The economic meltdown will be followed by a reduction in military budget and forfeiture of our nuclear assets. For people who think that will never happen, why do they think the civilian and military leadership cannot be bought? Do current events justify such a sanguine self-assurance?

In the years past we had all our eggs in one basket USA and we were very proud about it. (Arms, wheat, soybean, economic aid etc) and look where it got us. We were the "most sanctioned ally" but we persisted with our infatuation with the USA especially our military for American weapons.
65 arms embargo
71 arms embargo.
Finally Ayub and ZBhutto realised that USA was not a dependable partner inspite of the Mutual Aid agreement, SEATO, CENTO.
So we wooed the Chinese but kept one eye on the USA . Initially China helped fill the gap left by the arms embargo. Bhutto also convinced the French to supply weapons and a nuclear processing plant which unfortunately never materialised due to USA pressure. So we were bifurcating our needs which was the right ️ thing to do but the focus was always military centric and not economic. That was a big mistake as we know now.
1980 USSR invaded Afghanistan and suddenly we were a frontline state. Hurrah! Back to the USA . Reagan approved major military and economic aid packages for 10 years. Gen Zia was the darling of the west but there was darkness domestically.
After 1987 there were bouts of democracy. BB- NS- BB - NS until 1999 and then 911 happened. We were under sanctions since 1989 but once again USA USA . we did their dirty work and they dumped us again. Meanwhile China steadfastly supported us militarily and helped us with our nuclear program etc. Then came CPEC, the first real economic booster for our country.
I've digressed a lot but my point is that we need to diversify our strategic relationships. China yes but Russia, EU and even USA at least from a trade POV.
There should be a even balance between economic well being and military cooperation.

 

[WotTen]

US has been using our institutions as freelancers to achieve goals. With Zardari and Co being their ambassadors. There is a saying "lahuu moo lag gaya" in our case it's "rokra moo lag gaya".

Very true but the Establishment is really in charge of protecting our nukes and they would know that the US will not rest until our nukes are neutralized. So why do they continue supporting this imported government?

 

[SEOminati]

Very true but the Establishment is really in charge of protecting our nukes and they would know that the US will not rest until our nukes are neutralized. So why do they continue supporting this imported government?

That is something I have been wondering since this fiasco happened and somewhere with a very slim approval of my mind thought if we were not to accept the regime change, what could possibly be the consequences? Would we be attacked? Would our nuclear weapon be neutralized? But then I realized we have been sitting in US laps for so long we bowed down when Osama Bin Laden matter happened, that helicopter incident where our soldiers were killed and the list goes on. We never ever resisted US pressure and we may (with a heavy heart) never will hence. This may be going a bit off topic but when we discuss our relationship with China, US needs to be discussed because China at least as of now looks the only country that can challenge or is challenging US but Chinese are clever to be honest. They have been avoiding confrontation, and so are we the only difference is that we bow down while they try to find a way.

 

[WotTen]

the focus was always military centric and not economic. That was a big mistake as we know now.

The military was doing its job but the civilians weren't. Can't blame the military just because the civilians were not doing their job.

my point is that we need to diversify our strategic relationships. China yes but Russia, EU and even USA at least from a trade POV.
There should be a even balance between economic well being and military cooperation.

Agreed, we should trade with everybody. The West will use economic squeeze to punish us for relations with China/Russia, but even the West will not go too far. Even they don't want an unpredictable scenarios where Pakistan collapses into anarchy because of economic meltdown.

if we were not to accept the regime change, what could possibly be the consequences? Would we be attacked? Would our nuclear weapon be neutralized?

I doubt the US had any plans for a military attack. More likely they explained to the Establishment how far they could put the economic squeeze on Pakistan and how it would affect the military budget.

Chinese are clever to be honest. They have been avoiding confrontation, and so are we the only difference is that we bow down while they try to find a way.

Chinese are very clever. They know the US hates them to the max and will do everything to stop China's rise, but they place nice. Play nice and work hard to develop local capability.

That's the difference. The Chinese work hard. We just like to talk.

 

[WotTen]

NEUTRALS only interested in DHA real estates...

What good is DHA if the economy crashes?
Property values would also crash.

their money, properties , kids, families are in west! They will bent over as many times as the uncle tom wants them too.....zero self respect...sellouts they are! Don't expect anything good from them!

That is the scary part. Makes you wonder if the US already knows where our nuclear assets are.

 

[SD 10]

What good is DHA if the economy crashes?
Property values would also crash.



That is the scary part. Makes you wonder if the US already knows where our nuclear assets are.

Nukes are compromised for a long time!

 

[fatman17]

The military was doing its job but the civilians weren't. Can't blame the military just because the civilians were not doing their job.



Agreed, we should trade with everybody. The West will use economic squeeze to punish us for relations with China/Russia, but even the West will not go too far. Even they don't want an unpredictable scenarios where Pakistan collapses into anarchy because of economic meltdown.



I doubt the US had any plans for a military attack. More likely they explained to the Establishment how far they could put the economic squeeze on Pakistan and how it would affect the military budget.



Chinese are very clever. They know the US hates them to the max and will do everything to stop China's rise, but they place nice. Play nice and work hard to develop local capability.

That's the difference. The Chinese work hard. We just like to talk.

West is negative on Russia because of the Ukraine conflict otherwise Russia supplies gas to Europe

 

[WotTen]

West is negative on Russia because of the Ukraine conflict otherwise Russia supplies gas to Europe

Many people in the West, especially the Republicans and right wing, were hoping to recruit Russia as a Western ally against China. The Russians are white, Christian and essentially the same culture as Europe.

It's always interesting how events go their own way despite people's best laid plans.

 

[fatman17]

Many people in the West, especially the Republicans and right wing, were hoping to recruit Russia as a Western ally against China. The Russians are white, Christian and essentially the same culture as Europe.

It's always interesting how events go their own way despite people's best laid plans.

They remain Cold War II adversaries with China at Russia s side.

 

[Erroroverload]

NEUTRALS only interested in DHA real estates...
Veil has been brutally snatched from their face..they are exposed and stand naked.
مرا دیس میر سپاہ کا
مرا شہر مال غنیمت ہے

Problem is IK does not give in...
کبھی تو آئے گی بے داغ سبزے کی بہار

bikaou maal hein ye sb

 

[PAKISTANFOREVER]

Many people in the West, especially the Republicans and right wing, were hoping to recruit Russia as a Western ally against China. The Russians are white, Christian and essentially the same culture as Europe.

It's always interesting how events go their own way despite people's best laid plans.

When the WOT started back in October 2001, vladimir putin stated that the west, europe and russia should join forces to fight the common threat of "dark skinned Muslim terrorists" who are a threat to white european christian civilisation. This is why I am loving the russia ukraine conflict....... .

 

[Dalit]

This is not an option; it is a necessity forced upon us.

All this talk of balancing and diplomacy misses the point that the US is irrevocably against Pakistan. We can and should pursue economic interest but, strategically, they will never accept a strong Pakistan. The US will only tolerate a weak Pakistan that is subservient to India. This will not change no matter how much we dance to their tune.

1. The US' top priority is China containment and they have picked India as their regional ally. To that end, they must weaken Pakistan so India can focus on China.

2. The all-powerful Israeli lobby in the US will continue to push an anti-Pakistan agenda even if we recognize them. Israel will never accept a nuclear-capable Pakistan. It is non-negotiable.

3. The Muslim world is irrelevant. The Arabs and Iranians are locked in their eternal conflict, the Turks are schizophrenic about being part of Europe or Asia, the East Asian Muslim countries are rightfully focusing on domestic issue first.

If Pakistan loses China's trust, that will be the final nail in the coffin for this country. The economic meltdown will be followed by a reduction in military budget and forfeiture of our nuclear assets. For people who think that will never happen, why do they think the civilian and military leadership cannot be bought? Do current events justify such a sanguine self-assurance?

- Pakistan's interest is with China. The people of Pakistan have an interest with China.
- The political and military elite have interests with the US.

 

[beijingwalker]

China never asks Pakistan to choose camps, we want our friends to be everyone's friends, Pakistan's cordial friendship with the west helped China a lot in UN and establishing relations with US, the country served as a bridge between the east and west, which we're very much appreciated.
US will never abandon Pakistan because it always harbors that lingering hope that one day they can manage to turn Pakistan against China and complete their encirclement of China from the west, cutting off one of China's main energy supply routes.

 

[Azadkashmir]

pak should move towards aggressively with russia and aggressively trade for oil, gas, wheat, veg oil etc and with china also. but as they say if your leaders have assets abroad kids studying abroad then you are compromised. thats y i want gold n silver and barter.

China never asks Pakistan to choose camps, we want our friends to be everyone's friends, Pakistan's cordial friendship with the west helped China a lot in UN and establishing relations with US, the country served as a bridge between the east and west, which we're very much appreciated.
US will never abandon Pakistan because it always harbors that lingering hope that one day they can manage to turn Pakistan against China and complete their encirclement of China from the west, cutting off one of China's main energy supply routes.

if thst happens i bet pak ppl will revolt n burn down cities.