Does Pakistan Need Secularism?

[LEGENDARY WARRIOR]

Why everything has to be sharia compliant and jinnah compliant to be adopted in pakistan.
Even if for arguments sake, jinnah wanted a theocratic state, the present situation does not stop pakistanis from doing what they think is right.

As a country, when situation changes, you should adopt to that change.
Many debate gets struck with such false arguments and all you end up is a bunch of quotations from quran and jinnah, each side using it to support their claim.

look for now you will not understand how Pakistan can be if its runs according to Shariah. All I want you to do right now is to fit in your mind that all the terrorism you see and the countries you see who claim to be Islamic are not at all ISLAMIC.

 

[desioptimist]

look for now you will not understand how Pakistan can be if its runs according to Shariah. All I want you to do right now is to fit in your mind that all the terrorism you see and the countries you see who claim to be Islamic are not at all ISLAMIC.

Are we talking about terrorism? Why bring it to debate?
And thanks for your condescending words, I will try to understand sir. Why dont you try to explain?

 

[T-Faz]

Okay now that I know what you take Secular as:

- - The most important thing about Islam is that it is not just a religion. It is DEEN. And Deen is a combination of Religion, Moral Ethics, Politics, Law and Order, War, Foreign Affairs, Internal Affairs, Social System etc etc. .

To follow Islam you have to make an Islamic State (like Madina in times of Prophet Mohammad (S.A.W)). .

Religion is only one part. .

Deen means faith, religion.

The time of the Prophet (SAW) was one where there was no central authority in that middle eastern region to govern the people. Islam was a unifying force that also led to the first government of the area but that is because it was a requirement of the time and that was the only system that could be used to control the area. Bring about a positive change, implement law and order, control the populace and develop the society,

The expansion of Islam as a truly political force came during the time of the rightly guided Caliphs, however their shortcomings with their system led to a major clash within Islam and the rise of tyrants like Yazid.

What was developed in those times is what you term Islamic but the problem is that this system you speak of belongs to another time and cannot be used a way to govern people anymore.

Religion and more specifically Islam can be practiced by a single Muslim living alone in any society to its fullest extent.

Its not about the governance, its about individual faith, behavior and actions.

This concept of an Islamic state is now a spiritual phenomenon whereby Muslims reside in multiple states but they are all connected by their faith and the core tenant of Islam that "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is the messenger of Allah".

This religion is flexible and allows the freedom of choice, thus personal faith is what matter most.

 

[Moorkh]

No one asked for "your" opinion , you have no business about what we do in this country so you might wanna put a sock on it !

We have established a POV already about amending some laws where necessary to provide more protection to our 5% or less minority groups.

Please refrain from such comments.

The very fact that you are having this discussion on a public forum means that whoever chooses can make it his/her own business.

 

[Spring Onion]

You'd know the gravity of your statement once the Aussies also start treating you the same way.

Throw you out of the train.

Write 'Dogs and Browns' only on the train compartments and cinema halls.

et cetera.

I wish it happens to you for once so you know what you are saying ACTUALLY means when undergone.

Well for the time being the Aussies have already treated Bharatis aka "secular" Indians the way you have described.

what you say

 

[T-Faz]

Well for the time being the Aussies have already treated Bharatis aka "secular" Indians the way you have described.

what you say

That's racism, not religion based discrimination.

Also racism is not constitutionally supported or encouraged.

 

[Spring Onion]

in my personal opinion the version of "secularism" which some people (both internal and external ones) are advocating to us Pakistanis is no more than another extreme just like religious extreme.

so we the people of Pakistan (the moderate public) are being cornered and pressed by these two extremist groups i.e Conservative extremists and Liberal extremists.


so let give us a neutral definition of the word secular or secularism a neutral and applicable model of secularism NOT The twisted one which is flawed and not secularism. one such example is that of Indian model which is not secularism so they should not impose it on us.

 

[Spring Onion]

That's racism, not religion based discrimination.

Also racism is not constitutionally supported or encouraged.

))))))))))))))))))) a constitutional provision which cant be implemented is as much useful as tissue paper with stains of blown nose.

anyway the reply was to the Indian member who's notion is so much irrelevant here in this thread

 

[T-Faz]

in my personal opinion the version of "secularism" which some people (both internal and external ones) are advocating to us Pakistanis is no more than another extreme just like religious extreme.

so we the people of Pakistan (the moderate public) are being cornered and pressed by these two extremist groups i.e Conservative extremists and Liberal extremists.

so let give us a neutral definition of the word secular or secularism a neutral and applicable model of secularism NOT The twisted one which is flawed and not secularism. one such example is that of Indian model which is not secularism so they should not impose it on us.

That is why I advocate a model based on England for Pakistan.

The French system is anti-religion, the Turkish model is hard secularism.

England on the other hand has a state religion.

They allow religious provisions for religions groups and the freedom to display religious symbolism in the public.

England even allows religious groups to function even if they are extreme in their religious outlook.

However they remain neutral in the matters of religion and no religious group will have a bearing on their law.

This neutrality in the matter of religion and the freedom to practice any religion, live by its laws on a personal level will be ideal for Pakistan.

However from what I have heard, Pakistan will get more religious in the coming years.

The chance for a secular outlook is not possible as there is not an advocate for religious freedom and state neutrality in religion.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

Secularism guys is the idea that religion should not have anything to do with the affairs of the State... It worked for the Christian Europe because the Church was oppressive and in cahoots with the Monarchies sucking the blood and wealth of their people... Now a debate on Secularism in the context of Islam is absolutely useless and nonsensical because firstly we do not have anything like the Christian clergy or Church as an institution who are supposed to be in power... i.e no such thing as theocracy in Islam because Islam gives authority to the people instead of the clergy and secondly when Islam was implemented Muslims actually progressed... our legacy and history is proof of that... But most importantly... the secularist fools within our ranks dont understand the simple fact that if you talk about removing Islam from the affairs of the state then all the rules and laws that Islam has given to Muslims to follow in the affairs of the State and public issues, they all have to be sidelined and corrupt and man made laws are to be implemented in their place... How can you separate Islam from the affairs of the State when Islam commands the abolishment of Riba and actually declares those who deal in Riba to be at war with God and God's messenger?? If you accept this rule then you are not a Secularist... if you reject this rule you are not a Muslim... there is no two ways about this...

People who talk about Secularism in Pakistan are of two types...

Paray likhay Jahil who have in most probability never read the Quran with meaning and understanding in their entire lives...

Paid agents of the west

They form a minority in Pakistan and are mostly from the elite class of our country... This includes both the Military and the Civil sections of our society...

Brother i understand what you are trying to say as population of Muslims in Pakistan is 97 % and its perfect for a society to be based on Islamic principles but there are few problems here

1) You have got three version (deobundi, Brelvi and shia) of Islam in Pakistan and some of them call each others mushrik and kafir if they dont agree with the interpretation of Islam of opposite side so which version of Islam you will implement in Pakistan?

2) You will not have 98 % percent Muslim agree with you about your perfect model of Islamic state. How you would deal with them? There are many Muslims who want to have selective Islam in their lives. I have heard many times that i am liberal , i am moderate Muslim and it took me some time to understand who is liberal Muslim. It simply mean i follow only selective Islam and only follow those parts of Islam which suit to my needs. Such peoples want to change islam according to their needs and they don't want to change themselves according to Islam so will you use force for such moderate and liberal muslim who will not agree with your version of Islam?

3) Lack of sincere leadership. You will need a ruler with great Islamic character to make Pakistan a great Islamic state and how will we get such muslim leader with character of like those of hazrat Umar(R.A), Hazrat Abu bakr(R.A), Hazrat ali(R.A) who sacrificed all their wealth for welfare of peoples and were walking on streets at night to make sure that peoples are not facing any probelms or they are not suffering because of hunger. The following are the historic words of Hazrat umar(R.A) over which he laid foundation of his rule:

By God, he that is weakest among you shall be in my eye the strongest, until I have vindicated for him his rights; he that is strongest I will treat as the weakest, until he complies with the law.
I will be harsh and stern against the aggressor,] but I will be a pillar of strength for the weak.

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

huh! I never that HE needs to be secular, I am just saying that he's enjoying all the facilites & rights in a secular country. If he's shooo Islamic he need to live in KSA or go join Jihad is A-stan, is it so hard to get



yeah, I am, what are you? Hizb Khalifa Delusional-ist

Again... So just coz someone is living an honest life in Australia and with his hard work affording himself a decent living... he should become Secular?

and why should he go to Saudi Arabia? Is it an Islamic State?

As I said... your ignorance is here for everyone to see...

and you call me a delusional - ist

haha

Heres the interesting part now... I am not a delusional - ist... I know what I m talking about... I m firmly grounded in reality... I know that the Caliphate is the destiny of Muslims as promised to us by Allah and His Messenger... You on the other hand acknowledge that you are Bingo the Clown... LOL

Guys dont take him seriously... He thinks he is a Clown...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Brother i understand what you are trying to say as population of Muslims in Pakistan is 97 % and its perfect for a society to be based on Islamic principles but there are few problems here

1) You have got three version (deobundi, Brelvi and shia) of Islam in Pakistan and some of them call each others mushrik and kafir if they dont agree with the interpretation of Islam of opposite side so which version of Islam you will implement in Pakistan?

2) You will not have 98 % percent Muslim agree with you about your perfect model of Islamic state. How you would deal with them? There are many Muslims who want to have selective Islam in their lives. I have heard many times that i am liberal , i am moderate Muslim and it took me some time to understand who is liberal Muslim. It simply mean i follow only selective Islam and only follow those parts of Islam which suit to my needs. Such peoples want to change islam according to their needs and they don't want to change themselves according to Islam so will you use force for such moderate and liberal muslim who will not agree with your version of Islam?

3) Lack of sincere leadership. You will need a ruler with great Islamic character to make Pakistan a great Islamic state and how will we get such muslim leader with character of like those of hazrat Umar(R.A), Hazrat Abu bakr(R.A), Hazrat ali(R.A) who sacrificed all their wealth for welfare of peoples and were walking on streets at night to make sure that peoples are not facing any probelms or they are not suffering because of hunger. The following are the historic words of Hazrat umar(R.A) over which he laid foundation of his rule:

By God, he that is weakest among you shall be in my eye the strongest, until I have vindicated for him his rights; he that is strongest I will treat as the weakest, until he complies with the law.
I will be harsh and stern against the aggressor,] but I will be a pillar of strength for the weak.

You ask good questions bro Raja... I shall inshaAllah answer them tomorrow... Masalam

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

That is why I advocate a model based on England for Pakistan.

The French system is anti-religion, the Turkish model is hard secularism.

England on the other hand has a state religion.

They allow religious provisions for religions groups and the freedom to display religious symbolism in the public.

England even allows religious groups to function even if they are extreme in their religious outlook.

However they remain neutral in the matters of religion and no religious group will have a bearing on their law.

This neutrality in the matter of religion and the freedom to practice any religion, live by its laws on a personal level will be ideal for Pakistan.

However from what I have heard, Pakistan will get more religious in the coming years.

The chance for a secular outlook is not possible as there is not an advocate for religious freedom and state neutrality in religion.

TFaz... There are almost 2 million single mothers in England... because it is perfectly ok to be one according to their law... Do you want Pakistan to become like that?

Should we also have an economy setup on interest based transactions, fiat currency, fractional reserve banking?

How about letting MPs steal from their people and get away with it? SHould we continue to tolerate corruption just coz now we are following England? We dont need to follow England to have that... Our politicians are already setting world records in corruption...

England is one of the most hypocritical countries in the whole world... If you make a single tiny mistake of no importance in an office, your boss can make your life hell over it... yet their prime minister lied and took the whole country to war... caused the death and destruction of a whole country... and still goes around as the middle east PEACE envoy... No thank you... England is not a model for us... For God sake man... they still have a Queen... Someone is still stuck in a medieval past... and we aint following those people...

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

why do i get the feeling that even 50 years down the line ,the discussion will be the same ? What form state for Pakistan ?

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

in my personal opinion the version of "secularism" which some people (both internal and external ones) are advocating to us Pakistanis is no more than another extreme just like religious extreme.

so we the people of Pakistan (the moderate public) are being cornered and pressed by these two extremist groups i.e Conservative extremists and Liberal extremists.


so let give us a neutral definition of the word secular or secularism a neutral and applicable model of secularism NOT The twisted one which is flawed and not secularism. one such example is that of Indian model which is not secularism so they should not impose it on us.

Whatever model it is , it is surely working better than yours .