Do Pak textbooks build a hate culture against India?

[must7]

There are no anti-conversion laws in India. The laws are only against forceful conversions done by threatening and luring with incentives.

It is unconstitutional(in India) to have anti-conversion laws.
If there were any discrepancies, somebody would have appealed in courts. There are enough minority representatives and human rights activists.

You mean to see that in India wherein Hindus area able to kill minorities at will, forceful conversions are done against Hindus !

It is like saying in Pakistan that Muslims are being thrust upon other religion ! How could it be .. or another Baniya style "U" turn !

What constitution are you talking about ! The one which digested 14 states after partition of Union India !

Hindu council calls for Nationwide Anti-Conversion Law in India

Hindu council calls for Nationwide Anti-Conversion Law in India

By Vishal Arora — Compass Direct


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


NEW DELHI, India — The Vishwa Hindu Parishad, or World Hindu Council, has called for a comprehensive law to ban religious conversions in India as part of a new campaign to stem the “increasing” number of conversions around the country.

Addressing the media on Aug. 25, Mohan Joshi, national secretary of the VHP, said the existing anti-conversion laws in some states were not stringent enough to curb religious conversions.

“The law should have provision to penalize foreign nationals and organizations engaged in conversion,”Asia News quoated Joshi as saying. He suggested a fine of 1 million rupees or $22,750, and 10 years of imprisonment.

Anti-conversion laws are in force in the states of Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, Chattisgarh, and Arunachal Pradesh. Gujarat state passed a similar law in March 2003; but the law has not been enforced because the government has not yet formulated rules under the Act.

“Such laws are against the constitution, and they violate international covenants to which India is a signatory, including the United Nations charter,” John Dayal, secretary general of the All India Christian Council, told Compass in response to the demand for a nationwide anti-conversion law.

After the repeal of the Tamil Nadu state anti-conversion law last year, all states should follow suit, he added.

Tamil Nadu Chief Minister J. Jayalalithaa repealed the state Prohibition of Forcible Conversion of Religion Act in May 2004, following the poor performance of her party in the April 2004 general elections.

In his statement to the media, Joshi said the VHP would launch a renewed campaign across India to combat an alleged rise in proselytization by Christian missionaries over the past year.

The VHP would convene Dharma Sansads, or religious gatherings, in six locations “as part of its fresh attempt to curb the increasing number of conversions in India,” he said.

Claiming that the VHP had reliable information about plans of the Seventh-day Adventists to convert 1 million Indians, Joshi said all foreign Christian missionaries should be expelled from the country.

The Chennai High Court in the southern state of Tamil Nadu passed an order in July to seize the travel documents of SDA South Asia president Pastor D. Ronald Watts and his wife, Dorothy Watts, both Canadian but based in south India, on the grounds that they had allegedly forced more than 1 million Hindus to convert to Christianity.


Published, October 2005

 

[must7]

India is a country with 1 billion ppl. There will be rapes, thefts etc basic level of crimes around the clock. One who rapes does he care is that gal is muslim or hindu or whoever....Pakistan ppl shouldnt worry or care of these individual cases as long govt is taking action.

Yes but my posts have been based on religious based rape cases ! Don't tell me that nuns were doing strip tease in a joint !

They were only targetted to provoke fear in the hearts of the Christians. That is what concerns us .. and it is clear that the mob attacks are not few but many & having politician sponsorship.

There are not UAV's from Christian countries which are attacking India like Pakistan, but still unlike Pakistan, in India nuns & priests are being killed on daily basis.

 

[rubyjackass]

Just because someone calls for unconstitutional laws it does not happen. Do you think if hindus agree everything happens in India? Indian constitution withstood 52 years.


You really dont have any idea of conversions in India. So better not make uninformed comments.
There is social equilibrium between hindus and muslims in India regarding conversions.
But both are worried about conversions by christians. I have studied in a Catholic school. I know how people are encouraged(sometimes with money) to pick up christianity. You need not tell me.
You need not worry about muslims in India.

And many conversion laws and their repealings(sometimes the cycle continues) are matter of local politics. You will not understand.

About digestion of 14 states...
I think you still cannot digest the fact of unified India.

 

[rubyjackass]

About religious killings in India and their absence in Pakistan...
too few minorities survived in Pakistan so there is no chance for friction. Please refer to demography figures just after partition and present.
India chose to be secular.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Please give links to sources.
Atleast when the survey was taken...
ANyway my point stands. You can't search a person's mind and tell how much false stories about another does he believes.
You can only look at what his sources are.
And considering that this happens at such an early stage of life and at such a large scale(with text books) I can't see you point of surveys.
Read the report first.
I bet you share some of the ideas the report calls as inaccurate.
Tell me if you find any...
Seriously...

Link: Pew Global Attitudes Project: Summary of Findings: Publics of Asian Powers Hold Negative Views of One Another

You don't have to search a persons mind, you can see what the person states. These surveys are carried out by extremely reputable organizations such as Pew, Gallup, etc. They indicate that Pakistani opinion is moderate, against terrorism, against violence and in favor of peace.

At least one survey by Pew also indicates that Pakistani opinion towards India is more favorable than Indian opinion towards Pakistan. The only conclusion one can draw from the opinions and attitudes of Pakistanis as measured is that the argument that the curriculum has 'brainwashed or inculcated hate in most Pakistanis' is incorrect.

Not a single piece of evidence has been provided in support of the hypothesis you and some others are pushing.

The answer to the title of the thread, 'Do Pakistani textbooks build a hate culture against India?', can only be answered in the negative, in relation to similar attitudes in India, based on the evidence presented on the thread so far.

That said, there are flaws in the curriculum that need to be rectified.

 

[x_man]

I wonder if an Indian or a Pakistani really needs text books to dislike each other???? While text books on both sides do alter some historical facts will keeping their respective biases, but what about the majority of people who never went thru those text books? What do they think of each other really? ….I guess the same disgust ….

It appears that in sub-continent , even before a child is bathroom trained , he/she has already made up the mind about thy lovely neighbour of theirs….Ironically it seems that this hostility comes naturally in this region ……Well before a child picks his/her first text book , the heat is already ON…

Then there is vast unlucky majority of those who never set step in any educational institute ….they are also equally pissed on their next door state…

Interestingly, there is another class of people who not only never read any local text book but they also never set step in their home country…yes I am talking about the million of overseas or the generation that was born outside…One can also observes the natural aggression towards each other countries….Where do this come from ?

While we blame everything on the text books , probably we fail to realise that there are tens of other factors that are actually the breeding ground for this natural aggression….Hate has already set in, books only confirm it perhaps…..

 

[Meesna]

I think both India and Pakistan have problems which they need to fix. India has one advantage that it is a declared secular state and at least in principal all citizens' regardless of religion are equal, which is a start. In Pakistan in contrast it is a policy to persecute and discriminate against Shias, Ahmadis, Non-Muslims and Women. There are also some strange (read dark age) laws which, one is unable to comprehend what they are doling in a 21st century country. On such law given below;

ORDINANCE NO. XX OF 1984

PART II - AMENDMENT OF THE PAKISTAN PENAL CODE (ACT XLV OF 1860)

(3) 298C... Any person of the Quadiani group or the Lahori group (who call themselves ‘Ahmadis’ or by any other name), who … invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.

I highly doubt if a similar law existed in India on the same lines;

Any Muslim who preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrages the religious feelings of Hindus, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liable to fine.”

that it would be very amusing for Muslims on both side of the border.

 

[cefarix]

I think both India and Pakistan have problems which they need to fix. India has one advantage that it is a declared secular state and at least in principal all citizens' regardless of religion are equal, which is a start. In Pakistan in contrast it is a policy to persecute and discriminate against Shias, Ahmadis, Non-Muslims and Women. There are also some strange (read dark age) laws which, one is unable to comprehend what they are doling in a 21st century country. On such law given below;

Speaking as a Muslim, being declared a secular state is never an advantage. Truth (Islam) and falsehood can never be equal, in principle or otherwise. The real advantage is always with that group of people, that community, nation, or state, that has Allah on its side.

Since Pakistan was founded for Islam and Muslims, Pakistan accepts Islam as the truth and not other religions and this is reflected in its laws. Islam guarantees the freedom of religious minorities to practice their religion, by the way.

I'm not defending all that has happened in Pakistan, and there have been incidents of religious minorities being attacked, but this was against Islam. As for the law against the Qadianis which was quoted, this law does not encroach upon the freedom of Qadianis to practice their beliefs and they are given the same rights as other Pakistanis.

Unfortunately, because Pakistan's institutions have been corrupt and weak, all of its laws have always been abused and misused, but this does not mean that the laws themselves are wrong.

 

[RescueRanger]

I think both India and Pakistan have problems which they need to fix. India has one advantage that it is a declared secular state and at least in principal all citizens' regardless of religion are equal, which is a start. In Pakistan in contrast it is a policy to persecute and discriminate against Shias, Ahmadis, Non-Muslims and Women. There are also some strange (read dark age) laws which, one is unable to comprehend what they are doling in a 21st century country. On such law given below;



I highly doubt if a similar law existed in India on the same lines;



that it would be very amusing for Muslims on both side of the border.

Well, how nice of you to bring this up but don’t you think your argument is a bit one sided... "The Truth shall set u Free"

You seem like a Human Rights type of person, well then u must be well versed with the Draconian Laws across the border right?

Laws Such as the AFSPA that is applied in Northeast since 1958 empowers the security forces to arrest people without warrant, and use excessive force (including shooting or killing, even if the lives of the members of the security force are not at imminent risk).

The Act facilitates impunity because no person can initiate legal action against any member of the armed forces for anything done under the Act, without permission of the central government. Manipur was placed under AFSPA in 1980, since then the state witnessed innumerable killings.

Located nearly 2400 km away from the national capital of India, the Burma bordering state is home to 30 ethnic groups. However, the land of jewels (as Manipur literary means) nurtures nearly 25 armed outfits, which have been fighting New Delhi with demands ranging from sovereignty to self determination. New Delhi continues arguing that the security personnel need AFSPA to deal with the situation affectively.


You must also be aware for the Special Public Protection Act imposed against the Naxalite community in Chattisgarh?

Here is a very good article for you to study and it is by a independent, non partisan group based in the UK: Intolerance And Discrimination Against Muslims As a Religious Minority In India

You must also know about POTA: Prevention of Terrorism Act?

I can go on, but i am sure by now you get my drift... Looks like the grass isn’t so green on the other side of the fence after all!

 

[Meesna]

Well, how nice of you to bring this up but don’t you think your argument is a bit one sided... "The Truth shall set u Free"

You seem like a Human Rights type of person, well then u must be well versed with the Draconian Laws across the border right?

You got me there. Any violation of human rights is a violation of human rights. Period. I am not defining anyone; however I was under the impression that India did not have any laws like the one I quoted above which practically treats a community as slaves and in gross violation of human rights. Unfortunately when we cite Islam as the reason for this injustice as cefarix above has done then the impression that the world gets is that Islam is out of step with human rights just as Israelis are or Indians in the matter of kashmiris etc. ie one is no better than the other.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

India did not have any laws like the one I quoted above which practically treats a community as slaves and in gross violation of human rights. Unfortunately when we cite Islam as the reason for this injustice as cefarix above has done then the impression that the world gets is that Islam is out of step with human rights just as Israelis are or Indians in the matter of kashmiris etc. ie one is no better than the other.

I think it is a bit harsh to suggest that the laws against Qadianis result in them being treated as 'slaves'.

Certainly they are discriminated against, in that they are not allowed to call themselves what they wish, which is Muslim, and I woudl like to see that repealed, but I fail to see how you could argue slavery here.

The Qadiani issue is a very, very sensitive one for the Muslims world - faith in the finality of the prophet hood being considered integral to Islam and being a Muslim. Because of that I do not see the law being repealed anytime soon, because of the political backlash from the general public. I do think that any aspects of the law that prevent them from being given equal employment, justice etc. shoudl be revoked, but I do not believe there are such restriction in place anyway, bar the highest office of the land.

One other major step, albeit indirect, that would help is removing references to an individuals faith from passports and ID's, a move that Musharraf succumbed to the religious lobby on.

 

[Vinod2070]

I fail to see why many Pakistanis have an issue with some states in India enacting acts against forceful conversions.

Many Muslims say that the punishment for an apostate from Islam is death. They quote Quran and Hadhith in support. There was a major outcry in Afghanistan to punish a convert to Christianity by death recently. One has also read of cases in Malaysia and Saudi Arabia about the same issue.

I am yet to hear any outcry against this blatant double standard of converting others all the time while threatening those who want to leave the fold with death.

If some states in India are following the same logic in a very small manner, what exactly is the issue? Don't you want to practice what you preach to others first?

And it is for India to decide if the conversions are leading to social unrest and disturb the social peace, thereby lending themselves to be discouraged.

 

[beetel]

I fail to see why many Pakistanis have an issue with some states in India enacting acts against forceful conversions.

Many Muslims say that the punishment for an apostate from Islam is death. They quote Quran and Hadhith in support. There was a major outcry in Afghanistan to punish a convert to Christianity by death recently. One has also read of cases in Malaysia and Saudi Arabia about the same issue.

I am yet to hear any outcry against this blatant double standard of converting others all the time while threatening those who want to leave the fold with death.

If some states in India are following the same logic in a very small manner, what exactly is the issue? Don't you want to practice what you preach to others first?

And it is for India to decide if the conversions are leading to social unrest and disturb the social peace, thereby lending themselves to be discouraged.

Anti conversion bill has been introduced in some Indian states because of social unrest due to christian conversions which are said to be taking place..
These are temporary and in no way according to the logic you mentioned earlier..According to our constitusion everyone has the right to practice,preach and propagate their religion..

 

[Vinod2070]

^^ that is true. I am just pointing out that those pointing fingers at India are not squeaky clean themselves. Far from it, they are major hypocrites.

 

[batmannow]

Source: Times of India...what else?

sir, soldier needs permission, to troll a bit here!
enemy is out of feul!