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Do Pak textbooks build a hate culture against India?

Are you freaking kidding me? Did you not read the BBC report?:tsk:

What does it matter? Has the report said that all these polls by Pew, Gallup, WOR etc, are wrong? Have they come up with an explanation on why Pakistani attitudes are still so moderate and why Indian ones are comparable, despite the 'textbooks'?

I think you are committing the same mistake that Vinod did - the thread isn't about whether the Pakistani syllabus has flaws, it is about whether the Syllabus has effected Pakistanis to be more predisposed towards 'hate', terrorism, and against peace. I have pointed out through scientific polls that is not the case.
 
Strange - people didn't seem that concerned about the distinction between historical fact and folklore when it came to "Evil Violent Brahmins pouring molten lead down the ears of low-caste hindus"

Strange, people cannot accept evidence staring them in the face.

Let me know if you have an answer to my question, beyond that I am not responsible for responding to every comment made on the forum, or taking an interest in it.
 
Now you are arguing over semantics and getting into really silly game of numbers - 'which nation has more things to 'grieve' over. This is absurd, but I will respond one last time on this 'we have more grievances' inanity.

Obviously my intention was not bean counting but to explain that there are reasons why so many Indian would have this attitude.


"the event of partition itself would still provoke immense passions in India."


And that alone is really enough to get my goat on this forum. It validates the argument I have always made, Indians and India have not accepted Pakistan and they have not accepted the decisions of Pakistanis to live in their own nation. This expansionist, arrogant and disrespectful attitude in India needs to change for there to be peace in South Asia.

On top of that, while Indians cling to notions of partition based on some 'mythical entity', India did actually go ahead and cause the dismemberment of a sovereign Pakistan by destabilizing East Pakistan.

That is again taking the issue into another unrelated direction. Regretting the partition doesn't mean people want to undo it. Not after so long.

You can't control what people think irrespective of the way you may think and want others to think.

You may not call it partition, it is referred to as such by the whole world and in every history book across the world. There is a reason for that! And it is not disrespect.

Terror in Pakistan has occurred since the seventies, B Raman himself has suggested that India was responsible from carrying out bombings in Punjab and Sindh. Baluchistan has also been simmering for a long time now, and India has been seen as responsible for the violence and terrorism there.
It doesn't matter what you think the terror in Pakistan is due to, most Pakistanis believe India is sponsoring it, just as I would argue that Pakistan has nothing to do with violence in India outside of Kashmir.

Grievances against the other, genuine or imagined, exist in both nations to equal degree, and the attitudes are largely the same.

The earlier sectarian conflicts or some regional issues (Sindh, Balochistan) were entirely domestic AFAIK with little or no Indian support. You know it as well as I know.

Even now even you acknowledged the Mariott blasts were by a Pakistani terror organization. Blaming India seems little more than trying to do tit for tat. Even most Pakistani experts recognize them as being the results of wrong policies of the past coming back to haunt.

Either the text books have a negligible impact on Pakistanis, or the GoI is poisoning the minds of Indians through other means, such as propaganda and lies through the media (though one could argue the same occurs in Pakistan).

Sorry, but there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that the textbooks have had an impact on Pakistanis.

You are refusing to see the obvious multiple distortions that have been pointed out in this thread by just pointing to a poll.

While the poll is a good source we can't ignore all else. We all can easily see how so many Pakistanis are not able to distinguish facts from fiction and so easily fall for the Jew/Hindu/Salibi conspiracy theories. These books prepare the ground for them.
 
These people somehow forgot to mention that the Cyrus cylinder from 6th cent. BC is the first declaration of human rights.

They also forgot to mention that Emperor Ashoka's pillar edicts from the 3rd cent. BC describe laws so remarkably modern that many 21st century countries don't have them - ban on unnecessary slaughter of animals, free education at universities, hospitals for both men and animals, tolerance of differences in religion and opinion, non-violence, vegetarianism, ban on capital punishment, etc. etc.

And above all - these laws were remarkably secular - they didn't preach the virtues of any god, but instead propagated the teachings of the Buddha.

Is that what you are taught in your text books............:lol:

Ashoka revolted against Brahmin domination and machinations to tilt towards buddhism. Infact, Jainism, buddhism and sikhism were open revolt against ruthlessly implemented brahminic system of caste. Can you please complete the story of Ashoka by narrating the Brahmin-khastriya power struggle which led to brahmin siding with even the foreign invaders and then whole sale inclusion of Jats etc into kashtriya class. If all was milk and honey in bharat, then why all this happened..........why the revolt against hinduism?????????

How it is secular to ban slaughter of animals merely because one religion doesn't permit it, is beyond comprehension. You should only pose as secular when you and your country permit cow slaughter in your whole country.... that is the minimum premium for being called a secularist.

I dont know what is the obsession by hindus with secularism to the extent that you try to mislead the people that even ancient Ram Raj was secular......... what to talk of secularism which is inter religious in nature, ancient and modern hinduvta both are based on one principle i-e caste system because if there is no caste system, there is no hinduism......... if there is no caste system then there is no KARMA and SAMSARA (reincarnation).............

Ancient bharat was by all accounts (of hinduism) was the ideal time when DHARMA was the main ingredient of the rule and dharma my friend is hinduism with its severe caste system.......... So if you were not even tolerant to your own low caste fellow hindus, then your claim of inter religious secularism in ancient bharat, is ludicrous to say the least. As far as modern bharat is concerned, when you finish the "Social Apartheid" against your own low caste, i will be the first one to recognize you as secular, untill then...... no more such BS. Better luck next time :cheers:
 
Abuse of History in Pakistan: Bangladesh to Kargil - Reader comments at DanielPipes.org

A bit longish but a good read from a neutral source.

Are the facts that I highlighted in blue taught in your history? Shall I tell you something? I am more pained by them than most Pakistanis and perhaps even Sindhis, most of whom would likely go in denial or alternately try to gloss over them.

ilovef16, you are fond of facts and see nothing wrong is teaching ugly facts. Did your textbook that tell you about the treachery of Brahmins and Hindus also teach this?

Wonder why they forgot to mention this!

Definitely merits a reply albeit a lengthy one. So wait for it............:cheers:
 
Obviously my intention was not bean counting but to explain that there are reasons why so many Indian would have this attitude.
Point being similar reasons exist in Pakistan.

That is again taking the issue into another unrelated direction. Regretting the partition doesn't mean people want to undo it. Not after so long.

You can't control what people think irrespective of the way you may think and want others to think.

You may not call it partition, it is referred to as such by the whole world and in every history book across the world. There is a reason for that! And it is not disrespect.
It is the partition of British India, a colony, not some mythical, 'motherland'. Had the British not come and united the place, there would be multiple nations, large and small, ala Nepal, Bhutan etc. in South Asia now.

The earlier sectarian conflicts or some regional issues (Sindh, Balochistan) were entirely domestic AFAIK with little or no Indian support. You know it as well as I know.

Even now even you acknowledged the Mariott blasts were by a Pakistani terror organization. Blaming India seems little more than trying to do tit for tat. Even most Pakistani experts recognize them as being the results of wrong policies of the past coming back to haunt.
The sectarian attacks were separate form the bombings I am referencing, and India has been involved with the BLA. But as I said in my last post, you could argue India has little to do with these acts in Pakistan, and I can argue the same about Pakistani complicity in India.

The fact is that people in Pakistan blame India for the terrorism that occurs here.

You are refusing to see the obvious multiple distortions that have been pointed out in this thread by just pointing to a poll.

While the poll is a good source we can't ignore all else. We all can easily see how so many Pakistanis are not able to distinguish facts from fiction and so easily fall for the Jew/Hindu/Salibi conspiracy theories. These books prepare the ground for them.
If you were to read my past posts, I believe I stated several times that there were flaws in the curriculum, and that they should be rectified.

My argument has been, using multiple polls by multiple organizations (not one poll), to show that attitudes and opinions in Pakistan on terrorism, peace and India are largely moderate and similar to those in India.

This has nothing to do with the 'distortions' in the curriculum, it is an argument against the hypothesis that those distortions have affected public opinion and attitudes to a significant degree, relative to attitudes in India, in the aforementioned areas.

On that count the scientific polls I have mentioned validate my argument.

The propensity to blame India/Hindus is matched by the propensity in India to blame Pakistanis. The addition of the "Jews' into the equation is a Muslim phenomenon, not a solely Pakistani one, that has roots in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and the historical tension between the faiths. The role of the US in this conflict, the Israeli attack on the Iraqi reactors and perceptions of how the US unilaterally sided with Israel, sanctioned Pakistan etc. all play into this dynamic.

The resulting opinion is a complex outcome of many different events, perceptions and influences. To attribute it to a few flaws in history textbooks, that a handful of students likely pay enough attention to actually soak in all this implied and devious 'between the lines' meanings, is misleading and incorrect.
 
I forget, but isn't there a travelogue of Qasim's?

Could you post links to the Muslim sources?

Right now don't remember the links but I believe this is common information. A google for Mohammed Bin Qasim + attack on Sindh + Massacre - Google Search

throws many links. The Arabs did not feel a need to hide these acts as it was considered normal war booty by them and the murders were entirely in keeping with what had been happening earlier and which continued until much later.
 
OK, I take a little leave from this particular topic. It was good having the discussion.

Would return if something new turns up.
 
Abuse of History in Pakistan: Bangladesh to Kargil
Reader comment on article: Red Mosque in Rebellion
in response to reader comment: Actually, spain did capitulate

Submitted by Yvette Rosser (India), Jul 25, 2007 at 15:41

In mid-June I traveled from India to Pakistan during the height of the Kargil crisis. I made the trip on the Delhi-Lahore "diplomacy" bus. The rhetorical and ideological distance at the Wagh boarder crossing between India and Pakistan was like traveling a million miles and one hundred and eighty degrees in less than fifty meters. It was certainly an interesting time to be crossing that boarder. While in Pakistan, I felt as if I was experiencing history in the making, and the use of twisted history for nationalist justification.


I guess the author must be referring to the sigh of relief he had while he crossed over into a land free of diabolical caste system and associated hatred , a land which did not experience any such social apartheid (Pakistan).

He is also right on account of twisting history, Hinduvta mendacity of past glory is a delusional world where these megalomaniacs want to return, twisting of history used as raison detre indeed............... by hindu fascists.


My lecture was discussed in a newspaper article published in "The News," a daily in Islamabad, (quote): "Yvette drew examples from state-sponsored textbooks used in Bangladesh, India, and Pakistan to illustrate the appropriation of history to reinforce national philosophy or ideology wherein historical interpretations are predetermined, unassailable, and concretized." History by erasure can have its long-term negative repercussions. In Pakistani textbooks, which narrate the 65 War with India, Operation Gibraltar is never mentioned. Operation Gibraltar and the recent events in Kargil are products of the same processes.

Either this guy (the author) is a hypocrite or the poster of this article is hypocrite because the author talks about Pakistan, Bangladesh and India using the text book to reinforce national philosophy but nowhere in the complete article he mentions a single sentence about how india is using its text books to corrupt the young minds with Hinduvta ideology and imaginary glory it attained with the help of mythical stories.
If Pakistan and bharat both are manipulating the text books then i dont see any reason for this sanctimonious attitude by the author whereby he only spreads spleen against Pakistan and conveniently forgets to mention any example from hindustani text books.
His canard is exposed also from the fact that he thinks that Gibraltar is not mentioned in text books........... oh come on, all my elementary, secondary and college education is from Pakistan and my knowledge about this particular event is based on text books and reinforced by my own study of indian and Pakistani versions................. another canard exposed/// :lol:


The mistakes made in Kargil are a legacy of the lack of information that citizens have about the real history of their country. During the "war-like-situation" in Kargil, a headline in a Pakistani newspaper read, "Kargil: Revenge for ?71." This point of view can only be propagated by someone who is unaware of the real facts that led the Bengalis to secceed from the western part of the country, by someone who blames the breakup of Pakistan on India Gandhi and "Hindu influences" in East Pakistan rather than on 24 years of Panjabi-perpetuated internal colonization

I wonder how this brainless guy has come to criticize Pakistani text books while he himself is either unaware of the realities or has the gall to spread his mendacity despite knowing it to be as such ( i believe latter to be the case ). Which news paper he is talking about??????? what is its circulation??????? there are thousands of news papers in hidustan and there are millions of hindustani who only talk through the back of their head in those news paper, so does that allow one to make such an absurd generalization.........shameless hogwash indeed....... No mainstream news paper will be blind indeed to link kargil with 71.

Coming to the second point...... while it is true that main reason was the bengali sentiment, is it wrong to tell our future generations that it was the invading Hindu Rashtra army which played the main role in eventual fall??????????? Should we tell our youth that instead of being an agressor who had made elaborate plan to arm and equip mukti bahini for civil war in bengal, hindustan was the delieverer of freedom for Pakistanis??????????? Should we not tell them that Indira( a classic case of as you sow so shall you reap) boasted that she had drowned two nation theory in bay of bengal in 71??????????????? (although 71 war and its outcome have only served to accentuate and reinforce two nation theory in shape of muslim Bangladesh). Should we not tell our younger generation about the machinations of the hindus who were there in bengal????????? For your information, Pakistani text books give far balanced account of 71 war than what i can see from your knowledge or of the author based mainly on the twisted text books of india teaching twisted myths...................................


I can go on and on............................. to expose the falsehood propagated by the imbecile but would stop here because i dont want to waste my time. If anyone wants he can quote any excerpt from the article to which a discussion can then be developed. Overall a pathetic choice of an article to post on this forum............ :crazy:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgNoStIc MuSliM
What empirical evidence you say?

How about going back and looking at all the polls measuring Pakistani attitudes and opinions towards peace, terrorism and India.

Those polls show that Pakistani attitudes towards India are in fact slightly more favorable than Indian attitudes towards Pakistan.

Those polls also show an overwhlming majority opposing terrorism and violence.

What evidence have you brought to validate your point of view? Nothing, at best you, Vinod and some others have speculated that the contents of textbooks is 'brainwashing' Pakistanis, but if that is the case, then why is it not showing up in multiple polls by reputable institutions over several years, and why are the Indian attitudes comparable?

Hogwash and speculation is is all you have, and despite being confronted with the evidence, you cannot accept it. Which nation has brainwashed its people to hate is pretty obvious from the denial in the face of evidence here.

Haha. Alright Agno, have it your way. I'm done with this.


Loved the meek reply ! Welcome to Hindustan.
 
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